Dealing with Conservation Commision

[Fastfish]

Howdy, helping a friend out who is building a shop. Went the route of applying for a building permit. This triggered a visit from the cons com. They slapped him with a stop order. Meeting was ridiculous one person called all the shots and required wet lands delineation which will cost an addtional 2500 bucks. I remember dealing with this nonsense when I built mine. Does any one know a better way of dealing with this issue of over regulation run amock?

 

[lakeroadster]

If that is the law you have three options:

1. Work to get the law changed,
2. Pay the $2,500
3. Move

Caveat Emptor

When buying property / land these are the issues that should be researched before purchase.

 

[steveo1o9]

Is your friends project actually being constructed near a wetland/ wetland buffer, or is this just a bogus request? If it is bogus you can probably fight it with online environmental mappers, USGS maps, ect. which should be available online. If it is in fact in a sensitive area I think your friend is going to have to bite the bullet unless he can prove otherwise.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Does the conservation commission actually have the authority to enforce anything? Saying "stop" is one thing, but having the legitimate legal power to do so is an entire different can of worms.

 

[38Chevy454]

I agree, is the area actually in a potential wetland area? If not then fight them. I absolutely hate these groups with self-appointed authority that have no real legal jurisdiction. The problem is they will bleed you dry in time and money fighting them, even if you are proven right.

As stated, this is one reason to make sure you know the restrictions, or potential restrictions for any house you buy. It can be tough to find all of them, your friend may not have even been aware he could be in a wetland area.

 

[finn]

Work with them to find a solution.

The guy down the street from me filled wetlands (and built a house) on his lakefront property without a permit.

He was in court for several years and ended up with a $30k fine.

Between the fine and legal fees, he ended up loosing the house and property.

 

[kwschumm]

The BLM and US Fish and Wildlife are power hungry hypocrites - they treat every puddle as a wetland, every square foot of property within miles of a stream as an RMA, and every piece of private property as a nature preserve while happily trapping beavers, blowing up their dams, and destroying wetlands used by waterfowl and fauna on federal lands. They did exactly this on Green Mountain Road in Banks, OR when I lived there, mistreating the land while making small woodland owners file forestry management plans for even a couple of acres of trees. They are despicable agencies. Property rights are a thing of the past in this country. No well drilling allowed in WA and pushing for water meters on existing wells has overturned a hundred years of water rights legal precedent. No building within two hundred yards of a gopher mound. Have a dream of building a nice house on a few wooded acres outside of town? That dream is dead, at least on the left coast. Property rights are completely dead here, the government now effectively owns your property and raises your property taxes while denying any permit to use your land. The lucky few of us who have been able to negotiate the bureaucracy have been able to do so ONLY by having connections, if you don't know somebody you are totally screwed.

 

[01-7700]

http://maps.massgis.state.ma.us/images/dep/omv/wetviewer.htm

 

[billspit]

You may be able to get by with a wetland determination. I wonder if they saw something they suspected was wetland or if they are just asking for a delineation just because.

 

[EOC_Jason]

As some people above mentioned, those bureaucratic nutjobs are basically powermongers. I would *HIGHLY* recommend your friend hire someone to communicate with the conservation commission instead of him doing it directly. Because he will undoubtedly loose his cool one day at their stupidity and they will then make his life a million times more miserable, and probably 50/50 chance he will get thrown in jail... In the long run it's much cheaper to hire an engineer or whatever to work with those people and get the problem solved than dealing with the aggravation yourself... Also they typically know these people on a first-name basis, you don't ask them how they get the paperwork through the system, just be happy they do.

 

[Fastfish]

More detail. The cons. con review discovered fallen trees in the stream out back and dirt moved around by a bulldozer. The dirt was moved around - none pushed in the stream. The trees were down and have been down in the stream for many years. Point is it is really sad to find out that you can not do what ever you want with your own property. What he has done in the back yard has no impact on the wetlands, neighbors or anything else. Seems like it is just a whim of the conservation agent. Also we printed and brought in the state wetlands maps/aerial photos and the cons. con agent said those are not accurate and the wetlands have to be flagged.

 

[engineer2]

Glad I don't live in Taxachussetts...
In Massachusetts, conservation commissions' authority comes from several sources: the Conservation Commission Act (MGL Chapter 40 section 8C) for open space protection; the Wetlands Protection Act (MGL Chapter 131 section 40) for protecting wetlands and waterways (commissions have real power - they issue the permits); and the home rule provisions of the state constitution for non-zoning wetlands bylaws.

All state statutes can be found in the Massachusetts General Laws at https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws

Conservation commissions are the municipal environmental agencies in Massachusetts.

Conservation commissions are volunteers who work long hours to achieve community conservation goals. Commissioners are appointed by their select boards, town administrators, or mayors. Through a special act of the Legislature one community has an elected conservation commission.

Conservation commissions have between three and seven members. Town meeting or city council sets the number. Terms are three years in length.

State law sets no age, citizenship, residency, knowledge, or experience requirements for conservation commission members, although there may be local requirements.

 

[Charlie51]

Pay the money (consider it a bribe if you must) and get building. Life is too short.

 

[larry_g]

http://www.gazettetimes.com/news/lo...cle_7ad1bafc-9424-58e6-87c5-aeee6d662557.html

I used to work for the guy above and he is a neighbor. The story posted is from 2012 and is still not settled. He said that he is still subject to the $16,000 per day fine. The county people he talked to have denied any contact with him.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[engineer2]

I agree, pay up or move on.

Our county is run by environmentalists and they have pretty much shut down or denied most major development projects for the last 20 years. Then they wonder why people and businesses move out.

 

[four.cycle]

More detail. The cons. con review discovered fallen trees in the stream out back and dirt moved around by a bulldozer. The dirt was moved around - none pushed in the stream. The trees were down and have been down in the stream for many years. Point is it is really sad to find out that you can not do what ever you want with your own property. What he has done in the back yard has no impact on the wetlands, neighbors or anything else.

If this is a Class I or Class II stream, there is most likely a buffer zone requirement. The "fallen trees in the stream" are usually referred to as "large woody debris" (LWD) and are an integral component of riparian ecosystems.
That "dirt was moved around - none pushed in the stream" reads to me like somebody was running a piece of heavy equipment near a body of water, which in itself might be not allowed. Your "friend" may need to get the Army Corps of Engineers to sign off on any activity in or near the stream.

"Went the route of applying for a building permit. This triggered a visit from the cons com. They slapped him with a stop order." < This statement reads to me that he had already commenced work prior to securing the permits, in which case he shouldn't be surprised that a "stop work" order was issued.

You can't muck around in or near wetlands anymore without prior authorization from whatever local agency is in charge. It's just not permitted. They require seemingly excessive buffer zones in some cases.

Sounds like there's more to this story than what you've related here.

 

[four.cycle]

I used to work for the guy above and he is a neighbor.

He should have secured the necessary permits before commencing work.
My aunt and uncle in Redding waited about ten years for the permits to go through in order to install hard armoring (rip-rap) along the west side of their parcel on the Sacramento River.
Any in-stream work (or work immediately adjacent to a stream) has to be signed off on by the Army Corps of Engineers.

This isn't the 19th century anymore.

 

[FTWingRiders]

If that is the law you have three options:

1. Work to get the law changed,
2. Pay the $2,500
3. Move

Caveat Emptor

When buying property / land these are the issues that should be researched before purchase.

Pretty much it. I had to deal with a lot of it getting my barn built, and only one corner of it is close to the 100ft zone. My house was closer and had to get everything approved and signed off on. Cost a lot, but I had good surveyors that came to the meetings with me that the conn comm respected.
Yeah, it was a tough pill as my father would have shot anyone trying to tell him what to do on his property, but it’s 2017 and things have changed. Gotta play nice now.
Not sure what town you’re in, but recommend Whitman and Bighams in Leominster. Know their stuff and will go to bat for you.

 

[My Old Tools]

I love Texas.....

 

[kerrynzl]

Howdy, helping a friend out who is building a shop. Went the route of applying for a building permit. This triggered a visit from the cons com. They slapped him with a stop order. Meeting was ridiculous one person called all the shots and required wet lands delineation which will cost an addtional 2500 bucks. I remember dealing with this nonsense when I built mine. Does any one know a better way of dealing with this issue of over regulation run amock?

It is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission

I would quickly slap up the building and say it was almost finished when the stop order was issued

 

[Falcon67]

It is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission

I would quickly slap up the building and say it was almost finished when the stop order was issued

Not when government is involved.

I love Texas.....

Me too - but we still have some of that going on. However, there are more "I fought the law and I won" stories. Wetlands stuff doesn't work out quite like fighting the Preservation Society over a house.

 

[kerrynzl]

Not when government is involved.

.

In this country, especially when the govt is involved [but we are slowly sinking into the cesspit of bureaucracy]

Most bureaucrats are spineless a**holes that hide in a large organisation.
A bit of adverse publicity gets them crawling back under their rock.

They can only make decisions within their narrow guidelines. All you do is throw a bit of lateral thinking at them [your case is different etc]

You need to get a copy of their rules , so you can throw the truth back in their face.

 

[zak77]

Also, dont forget that a lot of the enforcement of the local Con Com is also subject to DEP review and you DO NOT want DEP involved so i suggest you ask them who they'd recommend for the delineation and go with that company/individual. The issue here is that your friend may or may not have wetlands on his property and Con Com is only trying to prevent damage to those wetlands. If you want to fight them about it, well good luck and dont say you werent warned not to, you'll lose. Best bet is to try and work with the field rep. I'm surprised the building inspector didnt send you friend to con com first or at least right after the permit was issued. I honestly think they take things way too far a lot of the times.

I was just talking to one of the Con Com in a nearby community and i was busting them over an area that was flagged. They said it was wetlands but it was uphill from a stream with enough pitch to hold NO water. So what exactly is wet?? "Well it depends on the soil makeup and plant species" So even if it's not "wet" it could be considered "wetlands".

 

[four.cycle]

So even if it's not "wet" it could be considered "wetlands".

^ This is the part that a lot of people don't seem to be able to grasp. It doesn't necessarily have to have water sitting on it to be classified as "wetland".

My girlfriend is a civil engineer and has been involved in projects where the setback requirements for wetland protection might seem to the average person to be completely ridiculous.
I doubt she would be able to count the number of plans submitted that were redlined and rejected and had to be re-worked because of that issue.
The bottom line is that it's pointless to try to fight with them - as noted above, they will win.

 

[steveo1o9]

I was just talking to one of the Con Com in a nearby community and i was busting them over an area that was flagged. They said it was wetlands but it was uphill from a stream with enough pitch to hold NO water. So what exactly is wet?? "Well it depends on the soil makeup and plant species" So even if it's not "wet" it could be considered "wetlands".

Exactly the person who will be delineating the site will look at vegetation and soil sampling to determine what is considered wetland, not just flag off the stream and call it a day. It does not need to be wet to be considered wetland.

It does sound like the OP's friend was trying to skirt the system and got caught. Wetlands and streams have buffers sometimes 100ft from edge of stream which cannot be disturbed. Your earth work might very well be within a buffer. Or the earth work altered the natural drainage course or introduces new runoff from the building or driveway. There are tons of rules and regulations when it comes to this and different classes of wetlands with different levels of regulation. Just hope / be thankful that your friend doesn't have an endangered turtle or nematode living in that stream.

I do believe that people should be able to do what they want with their own property to an extent but if everyone dug up/ filled in a wetland the ecosystem suffers.

This is coming from a civil engineer who works in site development with a multitude of regulations from various agencies.

 

[four.cycle]

"I do believe that people should be able to do what they want with their own property to an extent..."

I agree, but those "private property rights" end at the water's edge, and in many cases (as you note above) there's a buffer requirement.
Activities in riparian zones sometimes call for buffers of "two tree lengths", which can mean two or three hundred feet. (This would be in the context of timber harvesting on federal or state-owned lands here in the northwest.)

It does sound like the OP's friend was trying to skirt the system and got caught.

That's exactly how I read it.

"...be thankful that your friend doesn't have an endangered turtle or nematode living in that stream...."

Or a Mazama Pocket Gopher or Bull Trout or any one of the other 90 gazillion critters on the TES list!

 

[denis4x4]

My home is on the Animas river north of Durango and I also have access to irrigation water. Part of the property is in a FEMA designated flood zone. I deal with the Colorado Water Conservation Board, EPA and the Army Corps. I mention this because I knew going in when I bought the property that these were issues that were going to be of concern.

I've walked away from property and left deposits on the table after reading the CC&R's as well as the title and zoning reports. Too many people really don't read the fine print and then complain when they try to bluff an agency on an issue that they should have known about going in.

BTW, it's an ongoing learning curve and I try to may sure that I have the latest info concerning water issues.

 

[finn]

I love Texas.....

So tell me again what I am paying through my federal taxes for bailouts because Texas has no idea how to control development and flooding like they experienced this past hurricane season.

 

[ard]

My sister was a county supervisor for years. She and a few others pushed for and achieved local laws requiring strict environmental assessments for building and property subdivisions to ensure that wetlands and riparian habitats were protected....

15 years later she goes to sell off 10 acres. Yup, needs an environmental survey. $2500

Pays for the survey.


Whoops, Bad News: Bog Turtle habitat.... Requires population survey, $8k, and needs to be done across specific breeding/hatching seasons. 6 month delay.

Good news was they she used the biologist that helped set up the local regs, and passed. Still.....

Irony much?

 

[My Old Tools]

So tell me again what I am paying through my federal taxes for bailouts because Texas has no idea how to control development and flooding like they experienced this past hurricane season.

Let's see your area get 54 inches of rain in 48 hours and see how they fair.

 

[ard]

One comment on "the streams edge" (or 'the river', etc, etc)

Many times it isnt 'the edge of the stream/river as we sit here today'...it can be 'the edge of the historic high water mark'

In the beginning of the thread there was an article about a guy that made changes, after being told verbally 'as long as it isn't in the river you are fine'. What he probably SHOULD have been told was "as long as you arent within the historic high water mark of the river you are fine". And there are all kinds of setbacks that may apply on top of that.

 

[Fastfish]

Thanks to all who replied. Very interesting comments and suggestions. I learned a lot. Appreciate it. Looks like my pal will have the wetlands flagged/located and go from there.

 

[01-7700]

wait, we're not done commenting yet

 

[nes999]

Let's see your area get 54 inches of rain in 48 hours and see how they fair.

I would welcome it. Granted I live on one of the tallest hills in the state. When towns around us have had "century floods" my neighborhood is functioning as normal.
I am only saying this out of jest.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

 

[kwschumm]

One comment on "the streams edge" (or 'the river', etc, etc)

Many times it isnt 'the edge of the stream/river as we sit here today'...it can be 'the edge of the historic high water mark'

With that definition every roadway is a stream/river when it rains, right?
That's the way they like it.

 

[wasfuzz]

Is your friends project actually being constructed near a wetland/ wetland buffer, or is this just a bogus request? If it is bogus you can probably fight it with online environmental mappers, USGS maps, ect. which should be available online. If it is in fact in a sensitive area I think your friend is going to have to bite the bullet unless he can prove otherwise.

Been there done that,
Go to US fish and wildlife National wetland mapping page. it is the OFFICAL go to as to what is and is not wetland. If he has wetland marked on his property.

 

[ozyborn]

Get a lawyer, even though I despise getting lawyer involved. For myself, I look into these type of draconian regulations when I move before .I even consider purchasing the land

 

[jack stand]

Yup, take us right back to indentured servitude and slave labor.

lg
no neat sig line

Waaaaa, snowflake.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Speaking from the other side of this story, I have a good friend who is the person who does the wetland delineations in her county. She's a reasonable and realistic person, and she'll try to help people out if the borders are close. Sometimes the maps aren't accurate so she'll even go out to re-check the site in person, but more often than not the people she's dealing with are trying to sneak around the system.

 

[Lelandwelds]

I love Texas.....

Get a lawyer, even though I despise getting lawyer involved. For myself, I look into these type of draconian regulations when I move before .I even consider purchasing the land

I had former clients hire the person who wrote the applicable law or govt fiat. They were not always successful.

The feds ****. State local people not so much.