Dealing with Conservation Commision

[driftpin]

"that dog doan't hunt no-mo"

Not here, not now. They can, and will, fine you daily until you are in-compliance. If you don't pay, they can force a sale of the land. About the only way you can stall the collection action is if the parcel is homesteaded, and that just delays the action until you try to sell it, or you die, and the heirs try to sell it, as it has an encumbered title, the lien for the fine, the property will be worth far-less than its value without the lien.

It is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission

I would quickly slap up the building and say it was almost finished when the stop order was issued

 

[Throbbin Rods]

Not a cheap solution but landowner should contact a certified soil scientist and have the wetlands delineated by a pro, not some volunteer on a conservation commission that hasn't a clue but ;likes to throw their weight around

 

[Valk]

Massachusetts has a great application that allows any regular joe to do delineations themselves. It's run by the USGS. If you hire someone, they'll likely just do the same thing.
https://streamstatsags.cr.usgs.gov/v3_beta/viewer.htm?stabbr=MA

If you need help, shoot me a PM with the GPS coords location. I'm in the field, I use the tool a lot.

 

[yeldogt]

This is a growing problem throughout the country.

Building restrictions are like human resource departments in major companies -- they grow exponentially.

We have the nice sounding "soil disturbance permit" ... once designated for large parcels of land with new developments. What's "soil" and "disturbance" ? At one time it was actual digging and moving ... now it includes the area when driving the equipment over "any soil" including an existing stone driveway that is "disturbed". What was once 10 acres becomes 5 areas becomes 1 acre .. and then all properties. We now can have a 1000sf trigger the permit and 2000sf needing approval of the conservation district. At 2000sf the possibility of a "stormwater" management permit and control becomes a real possibility. Control, being a 25k pit filled with rocks. Since almost all roads have water flowing to some stream -- protecting the waterways is included. Forget not doing the full protection if the stream is on your property.

I almost had to include a truck wash and retention pit for my project -- the fact that the property had no place for it .. was irrelevant. The 8-10k cost was also a non issue to those involved .. and .......it was not needed.

Many of the decisions are arbitrary -- including the figuring of the triggering SF. Mine was a nightmare. Had to hire both attorney and engineering firm (not a survey/permit company) .. the permits and site **** cost me over 35k .. and that's not including the 1.5 year delay on a 1m plus property (not including improvements). Nothing changed .. nothing. This has nothing to do with the actual building permits and variances.

To add to the insult -- had to put thousands of dollars (4k) in an escrow account ... so that the township attorney and engineer could review my permits (and ask questions). I paid for both sides -- any disputes or questions ... I paid from escrow to have the townships engineer and attorney attend meeting with my engineer and attorney ($425 hr) .

They basically stop the project -- yes they can (your contractor will be fined and he will stop). I was told -- prove us wrong. We will know what the disturbance is when you submit the permit. Everybody wins except the homeowner. All the "professionals" love these rules because it's work .. and easy work. My point survey alone recently cost me almost 3k -- just the points. I needed one beyond dispute for a propane tank installation .. 3k.

 

[6768rogues]

Vote for people who like regulations and you get regulations. Plant corn, get corn.

 

[alien]

I am on my cities conservation committee. I am NOT an environmentalist! I was asked and joined as a request by the mayor. Many previous members were blocking projects they didn't like regardless of they met all the guidlines. There are rules to follow and we have someone to advice us. Usually I am the first to motion to approve!

We have a few local firms that know their stuff and come prepared. Biggest issue is those that come in with no answers or information. They waste their time and ours! This is an unpaid and unappreciated position for the 5 of us on the committee. Mostly they are like me and if they follow simple guidelines we approve.

Good luck with your project.

 

[kwschumm]

This is a growing problem throughout the country.

Building restrictions are like human resource departments in major companies -- they grow exponentially.

We have the nice sounding "soil disturbance permit" ... once designated for large parcels of land with new developments. What's "soil" and "disturbance" ? At one time it was actual digging and moving ... now it includes the area when driving the equipment over "any soil" including an existing stone driveway that is "disturbed". What was once 10 acres becomes 5 areas becomes 1 acre .. and then all properties. We now can have a 1000sf trigger the permit and 2000sf needing approval of the conservation district. At 2000sf the possibility of a "stormwater" management permit and control becomes a real possibility. Control, being a 25k pit filled with rocks. Since almost all roads have water flowing to some stream -- protecting the waterways is included. Forget not doing the full protection if the stream is on your property.

I almost had to include a truck wash and retention pit for my project -- the fact that the property had no place for it .. was irrelevant. The 8-10k cost was also a non issue to those involved .. and .......it was not needed.

Many of the decisions are arbitrary -- including the figuring of the triggering SF. Mine was a nightmare. Had to hire both attorney and engineering firm (not a survey/permit company) .. the permits and site **** cost me over 35k .. and that's not including the 1.5 year delay on a 1m plus property (not including improvements). Nothing changed .. nothing. This has nothing to do with the actual building permits and variances.

To add to the insult -- had to put thousands of dollars (4k) in an escrow account ... so that the township attorney and engineer could review my permits (and ask questions). I paid for both sides -- any disputes or questions ... I paid from escrow to have the townships engineer and attorney attend meeting with my engineer and attorney ($425 hr) .

They basically stop you project -- yes they can (your contractor will be fined and he will stop). I was told -- prove us wrong. We will know what the disturbance is when you submit the permit. Everybody wins except the homeowner. All the "professionals" love these rules because it's work .. and easy work. My point survey alone recently cost me almost 3k -- just the points. I needed one beyond dispute for a propane tank installation .. 3k.

I am running into every single one of the expensive obstacles you encountered. Plus the endangered gopher ****.

Years ago I read an op-ed that described the environmental movement as a cover for communism. Hmm.

 

[yeldogt]

I am on my cities conservation committee. I am NOT an environmentalist! I was asked and joined as a request by the mayor. Many previous members were blocking projects they didn't like regardless of they met all the guidlines. There are rules to follow and we have someone to advice us. Usually I am the first to motion to approve!

We have a few local firms that know their stuff and come prepared. Biggest issue is those that come in with no answers or information. They waste their time and ours! This is an unpaid and unappreciated position for the 5 of us on the committee. Mostly they are like me and if they follow simple guidelines we approve.

Good luck with your project.

"we have a few local firms that know their stuff and come prepared" ...... how can a homeowner "come prepared" .. they can't. They pay ..

Just submit the permit is often the response ... "JUST" ? 3 months and 8k .. is not "just" for informing that I'm not adding to the stormwater runoff. The answer never is let's "just" measure what you have already submitted to see if the information is there.

and the homeowner also has to deal with various boards and committees that are often filled with people who are not professionals .. who simply want to stop things. Even the professionals are wrong.

 

[yeldogt]

I am running into every single one of the expensive obstacles you encountered. Plus the endangered gopher ****.

Years ago I read an op-ed that described the environmental movement as a cover for communism. Hmm.

Its crazy. They wanted the truck wash .. the only possible place was over my current drain pipes (being replaced). SO ...I can not restart the project w/o the wash and one of the first things to do is replace the pipes. They guy actually said we would have to get the wash installed to get the permit and then move it and replace it after done with the pipes. But -- he did not need to inspect the wash after it was placed the second time .. because I already had the permit ????

This on a 1/2 finished project -- the biggest truck on the project going forward was a standard pick-up pulling onto a stone driveway.

 

[kwschumm]

Its crazy. They wanted the truck wash .. the only possible place was over my current drain pipes (being replaced). SO ...I can not restart the project w/o the wash and one of the first things to do is replace the pipes. They guy actually said we would have to get the wash installed to get the permit and then move it and replace it after done with the pipes. But -- he did not need to inspect the wash after it was placed the second time .. because I already had the permit ????

This on a 1/2 finished project -- the biggest truck on the project going forward was a standard pick-up pulling onto a stone driveway.

It is indeed crazy. Unaccountable bureaucrats wielding authority. In our case the road is a one mile private road. They still want the truck wash. The roads get washed by rain ALL THE TIME here in the PNW. They are just demanding the truck wash because they said so.

We also had to hire a certified landscape architect to draw up landscape plans that show only native plants and trees being planted. The plan he came up with will cost $50k JUST FOR PLANTS. There is NO requirement that we actually follow the landscape plan. There is NO inspection of landscaping. There is NO enforcement mechanism for this. They just want to see a plan and spend our money. I'll just have the entire area hydro-seeded, at least initially.

 

[yeldogt]

It is indeed crazy. Unaccountable bureaucrats wielding authority. In our case the road is a one mile private road. They still want the truck wash. The roads get washed by rain ALL THE TIME here in the PNW. They are just demanding the truck wash because they said so.

We also had to hire a certified landscape architect to draw up landscape plans that show only native plants and trees being planted. The plan he came up with will cost $50k JUST FOR PLANTS. There is NO requirement that we actually follow the landscape plan. There is NO inspection of landscaping. There is NO enforcement mechanism for this. They just want to see a plan and spend our money. I'll just have the entire area hydro-seeded, at least initially.

That's the annoying part .. it's all just paperwork. Expensive stamped topographical paperwork that's never referenced. Just because we can now use 11 satellites and point reference marks to mark a property out .. does it make it mandatory? I'm marked 15' from my line and the propane tank has to be 10' -- is a typical survey going to be 5' off? I'm next to a 28 acre preserved property for god sake.

While all of this is going on the DOT is fixing roads and bridges in the are with absolutely nothing .. junk all over the place and no environmental controls .. not even socks.

I had to get the landscape plan as well. They wanted me to fence off and protect the existing trees ... the space needed around each tree was huge and the cost to fence and maintain excessive. I cut them down ...

 

[kwschumm]

That's the annoying part .. it's all just paperwork. Expensive stamped topographical paperwork that's never referenced. Just because we can now use 11 satellites and point reference marks to mark a property out .. does it make it mandatory? I'm marked 15' from my line and the propane tank has to be 10' -- is a typical survey going to be 5' off? I'm next to a 28 acre preserved property for god sake.

While all of this is going on the DOT is fixing roads and bridges in the are with absolutely nothing .. junk all over the place and no environmental controls .. not even socks.

I had to get the landscape plan as well. They wanted me to fence off and protect the existing trees ... the space needed around each tree was huge and the cost to fence and maintain excessive. I cut them down ...

The old double standard. Crack down on those who are least able to fight.

We have to fence off everything too. We can't cut too many of them down though. In order to build on our five acres we have to leave 65% of the land off limits to anything. It's not even wetlands, it's on top of a 300 foot hill. We had to hire a civil engineer to do the official drainage plan too, even though drainage won't change - all the water will still run downhill as it has since the beginning of time.

 

[yeldogt]

The old double standard. Crack down on those who are least able to fight.

We have to fence off everything too. We can't cut too many of them down though. In order to build on our five acres we have to leave 65% of the land off limits to anything. It's not even wetlands, it's on top of a 300 foot hill. We had to hire a civil engineer to do the official drainage plan too, even though drainage won't change - all the water will still run downhill as it has since the beginning of time.

When my project is finished -- if it ever is. The impervious area is actually going down vs what was there before. The footprint is fractionally larger ... about 50sf (set of steps) .. and they made an issue of that. This property is in an historic village -- so the lots are small surrounded by protected farmland. Many of these rules were to slow down or stop development ... but, the developers have the knowledge and just add the costs/ delays to the overall project.

A local couple wanted to expand a kitchen and add a bath and mudroom -- by the time they finished ......... the outside permit costs (overland above normal building permits/design), extra costs to protect the property and build a stormwater basin ........ over 50k.

 

[checkthisout]

The BLM and US Fish and Wildlife are power hungry hypocrites - they treat every puddle as a wetland, every square foot of property within miles of a stream as an RMA, and every piece of private property as a nature preserve while happily trapping beavers, blowing up their dams, and destroying wetlands used by waterfowl and fauna on federal lands. They did exactly this on Green Mountain Road in Banks, OR when I lived there, mistreating the land while making small woodland owners file forestry management plans for even a couple of acres of trees. They are despicable agencies. Property rights are a thing of the past in this country. No well drilling allowed in WA and pushing for water meters on existing wells has overturned a hundred years of water rights legal precedent. No building within two hundred yards of a gopher mound. Have a dream of building a nice house on a few wooded acres outside of town? That dream is dead, at least on the left coast. Property rights are completely dead here, the government now effectively owns your property and raises your property taxes while denying any permit to use your land. The lucky few of us who have been able to negotiate the bureaucracy have been able to do so ONLY by having connections, if you don't know somebody you are totally screwed.

Yes, however, those agencies get sued by citizen groups like Sierra Club, Friends of the Earth etc if they don't have a process and paper trail to make sure that they made you make sure you weren't generating any excess runoff, silted runoff etc. when they permitted your project.

 

[kwschumm]

Yes, however, those agencies get sued by citizen groups like Sierra Club, Friends of the Earth etc if they don't have a process and paper trail to make sure that they made you make sure you weren't generating any excess runoff, silted runoff etc. when they permitted your project.

Yep, special interests trump individual rights every time. And it's the governments job to protect individual rights, which they **** at.

 

[yeldogt]

The stuff all sounds great on paper .. that's the problem. Watching the process from way too close up .. most of the elected officials who trumpet these great sounding laws/requirments don't fully understand what it's going to do to individual homeowners.

The insane part is it negatively impacts the project -- resulting in a finished property that's not as nice or valuable. The property owners have not only lost money that could/ would have been spent elsewhere on the property ... but, most times the project must be altered in a negative way ... for little reason.

 

[barnee]

My entire project was designed around my local conservation requirements (locally known as the Chesapeake Bay act).

If you exceed 2000 SF of disturbed area you have to provide permanent storm water management for your property.

While that sounds like you can keep under this for most garage builds, they unfortunately take your building footprint, add a 10' buffer all the way around this and include the pathway to the paved access area. If you sit back on your property you are already over.

To be under this I had to have a footprint of no larger than 28' by 38'.

As a second insult, you also cant have more than 18% of your lot as impervious area or you still need to provide permanent storm water management. Gravel counts as impervious.

I had to post a $2,000 cash bond and just got the inspector to agree that everything is stabilized. Now it takes the county two months to release my money.

 

[CJ7VFR]

....As a second insult, you also cant have more than 18% of your lot as impervious are or you still need to provide permanent storm water management. Gravel counts as impervious.....

In my town, in the area where I live, we can't cover more than 10 percent of the property with "impervious" surfaces.

It started out as 25 percent, then 20, then 15 and now 10. Every single home in the area, which is made up of basically 1 acre lots, is over the now 10 percent just because of the house being there. So people who want sheds, or paved driveways or side walks or patios are S.O.L. unless you pay a huge fee for a special use variance.

But what amazed me about all of this is that a gravel driveway, or a gravel walk way, or a gravel patio is considered "impervious" surface, which makes no sense to me.

If people are having problems with water drainage on their property, and pools of water just sitting on the surface of the ground where you don't want it, and it takes forever to drain into the soil, the town zoning says you can dig up the area where the water is sitting, put down a certain depth of gravel, cover that with sod, and they say that will help with the water to drain better into the ground.

How can they say that putting gravel in this situation make the ground more "pervious" than just hard packed soil, but then say a gravel driveway, patio or walkway made with the same gravel is "impervious"?

Jim

 

[yeldogt]

My entire project was designed around my local conservation requirements (locally known as the Chesapeake Bay act).

If you exceed 2000 SF of disturbed area you have to provide permanent storm water management for your property.

While that sounds like you can keep under this for most garage builds, they unfortunately take your building footprint, add a 10' buffer all the way around this and include the pathway to the paved access area. If you sit back on your property you are already over.

To be under this I had to have a footprint of no larger than 28' by 38'.

As a second insult, you also cant have more than 18% of your lot as impervious area or you still need to provide permanent storm water management. Gravel counts as impervious.

I had to post a $2,000 cash bond and just got the inspector to agree that everything is stabilized. Now it takes the county two months to release my money.

Had to provide a non-compliance sheet as part of my "disturbance" permit --- I'm taking about a 140 year property in an historic town. The whole thing is .."non" everything is "non" for 2017 .... except it's gorgeous -- and I can't say that for most of the conforming stuff built in the past 30 years.

They will not take a simple survey of the property -- it has to be this crazy "expensive" topographical. So you can't use an existing survey that you may have for RE .. or even one from a previous project. So you have to give them both the existing and proposed .. and what if things change (they always do) -- you have to resubmit. Again this is for a property under 3/4 acre -- it'a all house studio and driveway. Cost was 4k .. and you have to give them the typical "as built" at the end ...... that you can't use when you want to do something else.

 

[yeldogt]

In my town, in the area where I live, we can't cover more than 10 percent of the property with "impervious" surfaces.

It started out as 25 percent, then 20, then 15 and now 10. Every single home in the area, which is made up of basically 1 acre lots, is over the now 10 percent just because of the house being there. So people who want sheds, or paved driveways or side walks or patios are S.O.L. unless you pay a huge fee for a special use variance.

But what amazed me about all of this is that a gravel driveway, or a gravel walk way, or a gravel patio is considered "impervious" surface, which makes no sense to me.

If people are having problems with water drainage on their property, and pools of water just sitting on the surface of the ground where you don't want it, and it takes forever to drain into the soil, the town zoning says you can dig up the area where the water is sitting, put down a certain depth of gravel, cover that with sod, and they say that will help with the water to drain better into the ground.

How can they say that putting gravel in this situation make the ground more "pervious" than just hard packed soil, but then say a gravel driveway, patio or walkway made with the same gravel is "impervious"?

Jim

I'm not far from you -- west of the Delaware (running from taxes). I actually had to include the pads for the generator and two AC units ... but not a possible Bilco door/steps?

 

[checkthisout]

The "rule" governing runoff from roofs, drives etc, is that you can't have water leaving your property before it is able to permeate the ground.

In the Northwest we have Salmon which makes managing runoff worthwhile...to a point but at the end of the day people aren't going to stop screwing and making more people so just the presence of more houses, roads etc, even with all the runoff management in place is going to make little difference. The fish are still going to extinct no matter what.

FYI, they don't allow you to use broken concrete at your construction entrance because they claim the concrete dust that will be tracked out by the tires onto the road is harmful to fish. You must use Quarry Spalls.