dealing with the building inspector

[1950coronet600hp]

well this is going well, just bought a house. one of my first planned upgrades was upgrading from 100 to 200a service, not new to wiring, but new to home ownership I wandered down to the town hall to inquire about permits for me to install my own electrical work. I was informed that although I am legally permitted to do my own work, inspectors have their choice on weather to inspect homeowner performed work, and that he does not. my first thought is well gee, that just forces people to skip the permit process and just "have at it" aside from getting licenced, is there any other way around this? or am I stuck having to hire an electrician? plan b so far is to start making phone calls to electricians who will only do the finishing work connections etc, and I can do all the grunt work.

 

[tonyciambrone]

I was informed that although I am legally permitted to do my own work, inspectors have their choice on weather to inspect homeowner performed work, and that he does not.

What?

Is it that they have a choice whether or not to inspect the work, or they don't have a choice, or that they cannot inspect homeowner work?

In any case your best bet is to follow the letter of the law. The big risk is if something goes wrong, aka your house burns down or part of it burns down, your insurance company will probably want to deny the claim any way they can. If it turns out you did not do due diligence or didn't follow code, it will be your fault.

 

[Chucktin]

We were told (north Central Florida) that inspectors will be willing to sign off on an Electrician's work but will scrutinize a homeowner's work on the premise that DIY will more often than not be sketchy.

 

[strutaeng]

That's not surprising. You must be out in the country, eh?

My boss is doing a project in a rural county in Tx, and when he couldn't find information on the building code they were using he email the city clerk.


City clerk forwarded the question to the building official (who is also the sheriff.) His response was literally, "We don't use no stinking building code like the city folks do." We found the email hilarious, but he is the AHJ.

The bottom line is that you do good workmanship and follow local best practices. I personally would follow the latest NEC.

 

[signcrafter]

So is the problem that you can't get the Poco to hook up power after the service change without getting an inspector to sign off?

Other then that unless I read you post wrong it sounds like you can do it all yourself and forget about the inspector. Just do your homework and follow the codes.

As for finding an electrician to sign off that might be hard. He's accepting all risk with out getting much reward unless he charges you full price for a service change.

 

[Rock knocker]

My first call would be to the mayor. It isn't a government officials choice who he works for. What he is doing is blackmailing HO into using his buddies, the electrical contractors. Also known as extortion.

I'd think about bringing this up at a council meeting.

 

[Richard Cranium]

the more waves you make, the harder they can make it for you.

 

[Rock knocker]

What can be harder than not being allowed to do the work?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

well this is going well, just bought a house. one of my first planned upgrades was upgrading from 100 to 200a service, not new to wiring, but new to home ownership I wandered down to the town hall to inquire about permits for me to install my own electrical work. I was informed that although I am legally permitted to do my own work, inspectors have their choice on weather to inspect homeowner performed work, and that he does not. my first thought is well gee, that just forces people to skip the permit process and just "have at it" aside from getting licenced, is there any other way around this? or am I stuck having to hire an electrician? plan b so far is to start making phone calls to electricians who will only do the finishing work connections etc, and I can do all the grunt work.

ok but theres something missing here. does this mean that they wont issue you a permit because he wont inspect? or does this mean you need your own inspector? or what is the issue after being told the inspector wont inspect it?

BTW adding your location to your profile would help as someone on here may have already gone through the same thing in your area...

 

[Rock knocker]

Good points.

 

[frank001]

ok but theres something missing here. does this mean that they wont issue you a permit because he wont inspect? or does this mean you need your own inspector? or what is the issue after being told the inspector wont inspect it?

BTW adding your location to your profile would help as someone on here may have already gone through the same thing in your area...

I have gotten to the point, that if someone asks for information that is location dependent, but doesn't provide any clue where they are located, I just ignore their post and move on.

 

[Jim greengo]

So who's the inspectors boss?

 

[Copymutt]

The whole deal sounds hokey!
Elec code is national, not by city/county. NEC
Here we pull a permit at the state level and they have inspectors.

 

[1950coronet600hp]

from all the input it seems I need to clarify..

sounds like they won't issue a permit, because the inspector won't inspect the work. I am fully competent and comfortable with wiring. however I don't know everything, and want the inspectors ok as an additional safety. I also am fully capable of looking up current code (no pun intended lol)

as far as forcing me to go with an electrician thus greasing his buddies palms, yeah it does sound like that, however a full frontal attack will most certainly screw me over, as I have a list of things I would like to do, and he's the one who has to sign off.

I obviously could just wing it, but I want to play it safe and have my work checked as added insurance. but looks like that might be an option.

I live in Athol Massachusetts

 

[JRC3]

The whole deal sounds hokey!
Elec code is national, not by city/county. NEC
Here we pull a permit at the state level and they have inspectors.

In OH it's the county...At least in Greene and Montgomery. Both of which are completely willing to advise a homeowner on what to do and are completely willing to do right as long as the homeowner doesn't start dicking around.


I have heard horror stories through the years of some inspectors playing god or being completely clueless.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

well this is going well, just bought a house. one of my first planned upgrades was upgrading from 100 to 200a service, not new to wiring, but new to home ownership I wandered down to the town hall to inquire about permits for me to install my own electrical work. I was informed that although I am legally permitted to do my own work, inspectors have their choice on weather to inspect homeowner performed work, and that he does not. my first thought is well gee, that just forces people to skip the permit process and just "have at it" aside from getting licensed, is there any other way around this? or am I stuck having to hire an electrician? plan b so far is to start making phone calls to electricians who will only do the finishing work connections etc, and I can do all the grunt work.

from all the input it seems I need to clarify..

sounds like they won't issue a permit, because the inspector won't inspect the work. I am fully competent and comfortable with wiring. however I don't know everything, and want the inspectors ok as an additional safety. I also am fully capable of looking up current code (no pun intended lol)

as far as forcing me to go with an electrician thus greasing his buddies palms, yeah it does sound like that, however a full frontal attack will most certainly screw me over, as I have a list of things I would like to do, and he's the one who has to sign off.

I obviously could just wing it, but I want to play it safe and have my work checked as added insurance. but looks like that might be an option.

I live in Athol Massachusetts

since this is a legal matter we need to be careful with our choice of words.

Did they in fact tell you they wont issue you a permit or are you assuming this? With your choice of words, im leaning towards the latter.

And if they told you they wouldnt issue you a permit, while at the same time, according to your OP, telling you youre legally permitted to do the work, then LEGALLY, they have to issue you a permit.

Perhaps you need to clarify it with them or maybe clarify things with us?

 

[yeldogt]

I have never encountered this -- did the inspector himself tell you this? Is there a code official as well?

 

[mm08822]

I had my local building inspector tell me "no homeowner will install an inground pool in my town" as I tried to had in all of the permits/drawings. About face I went.

A week later I went back in with a State affidavit signed and sealed on top of the same pile of paper. I told him here is the affidavit stating I have the right to do this work. He said Thank you and took everything. 3 weeks later I had my permits.

OP, here is the Homeowner Exemption Form for Mass. Fill it out along with the Bldg permit and Electrical permit. Then submit all 3, exemption form on top. If you get any b.s. from the athol inspector, call the number on the top of exemption form.

Exemption Elig Aff: https://shrewsburyma.gov/DocumentCenter/View/2475/Homeowner-Exemption-Affidavitdocxpdf

Bldg Permit: http://www.athol-ma.gov/sites/atholma/files/file/file/1285111865_385803.pdf

Elect Permit: http://www.athol-ma.gov/sites/athol...ion_for_permit_to_perform_electrical_work.pdf

Mass Ele Code: http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dfs/osfm/cmr/cmr-secured/527012.pdf

Appeal http://www.athol-ma.gov/sites/atholma/files/file/file/1253025999_451995.pdf



Permit fees: http://www.athol-ma.gov/sites/atholma/files/u201/fee_schedule_for_wiring_permits.pdf

Permit app: http://www.athol-ma.gov/sites/athol...ion_for_permit_to_perform_electrical_work.pdf

Ch 143 3L: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter143/Section3L

Ch 166 32: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXXII/Chapter166/Section32

Updated fees: http://www.athol-ma.gov/sites/atholma/files/file/file/fee_schedule_for_building_4-9-15.pdf

 

[alfredeneuman]

I've heard of jurisdictions where the homeowner is issued a permit for all electrical work except the Service, which has to be installed by a licensed contractor.

 

[Eric29]

Same thing happened to me. I was told that even though there’s a law on the books that allows single residence home owners to obtain their own permits, that is just for retired electricians who want to install a single circuit. All of my electrician friends then said, “what did I tell you about calling the city?”

Pretty unfortunate.

well this is going well, just bought a house. one of my first planned upgrades was upgrading from 100 to 200a service, not new to wiring, but new to home ownership I wandered down to the town hall to inquire about permits for me to install my own electrical work. I was informed that although I am legally permitted to do my own work, inspectors have their choice on weather to inspect homeowner performed work, and that he does not. my first thought is well gee, that just forces people to skip the permit process and just "have at it" aside from getting licenced, is there any other way around this? or am I stuck having to hire an electrician? plan b so far is to start making phone calls to electricians who will only do the finishing work connections etc, and I can do all the grunt work.

 

[James-W]

I've heard of jurisdictions where the homeowner is issued a permit for all electrical work except the Service, which has to be installed by a licensed contractor.

That is the way it is here too. When I built the garage I had to hire a Master Electrician to install the service, but I could do the rest of the wiring in the garage. I could not even get the permit for the new service, the Master Electrician had to do it. I could, however, get the permit to wire the inside of the garage, which I did.

 

[Jim greengo]

The whole deal sounds hokey!
Elec code is national, not by city/county. NEC
Here we pull a permit at the state level and they have inspectors.

The NEC is actually the minimum standard,plenty of cities/states have their own codes on top of it.

 

[Innovate1]

It can be hard to figure out what is going on and it seems they make the process difficult on purpose some places. But in most cases you can work though it. In a previous location (a town near Portland, Oregon) I went in to find out what was required for some plumbing work. The person said something to the effect of "if you were going to do brain surgery you would have to go to school to learn it" in effect saying they weren't going to help me one bit. Protecting their buddies in the trade I think. Anyway, I read up on things and installed the plumbing - essentially everything in a slab house that was moved to a lot with a foundation and hookup to the sewer. I called for inspection and set a time. I got there about 3 minutes late and waited around. Next morning I called thinking I missed him and it can't be good. Different guy than in the office - said it was the best job he had seen in some time and he had tucked the sign off under a board near the front door. Ask around and see what others have to say - maybe at some local electrical supply stores.

I have wired whole houses and put in several meter bases and main panels. Some in areas with no inspections, some with inspections that were very reasonable. Now I am in an area where the rule is I can do everything except the main panel, generator transfer switch and a few other things. Have to take a test to qualify to do the homeowner work and it's only good for the current project as far as I can tell. Seems like the extra red tape just encourages people to not get permits.

 

[zak77]

Here in Mass you are allowed to pull your own permits, do your own work(as long as you are the homeowner) but they require licensed electricians to make the final connections. If you dont have a licensed electrician do the final hookups then the electrical inspector usually wont sign-off. So your option is to do it under the radar. I see both done all the time where a homeowner does 90% of the work, has the licensed electrician do final hookups and meets with electrical inspector for final sign-off. Same with plumbing and to some extent the building aspect.

 

[Innovate1]

What do you mean by "final connections"? Is that for any work, such as adding an outlet circuit or just for more major items like sub panels or main panels? If you have to get an electrician involved for any project then getting your own permit doesn't really mean much. Seems kind of arbitrary if the inspector "usually" won't sign off.

Many times if someone has an agreeably electrician that is willing to put their name on the signoff then the owner does the work and the electrician looks it over and signs off. Probably bending the rules a bit but I know it happens. I am hoping I can find a deal like that but probably not.

Here in Mass you are allowed to pull your own permits, do your own work(as long as you are the homeowner) but they require licensed electricians to make the final connections. If you dont have a licensed electrician do the final hookups then the electrical inspector usually wont sign-off. So your option is to do it under the radar. I see both done all the time where a homeowner does 90% of the work, has the licensed electrician do final hookups and meets with electrical inspector for final sign-off. Same with plumbing and to some extent the building aspect.

 

[Mikla]

As stated, I would fill out the application and associated paperwork and submit it. Let them turn you down. Worse case, see if you can find a local electrician to work with that will pull the permit and let you do most of the work and be there to answer questions and inspect your work, along with being there for inspections.

The other advice I can give is to see if you can make an appointment to meet with the inspector to go over your plans. In the end, it is all about personalities and egos... I stroke the **** out of them and never had a problem.

 

[alfredeneuman]

see if you can find a local electrician to work with that will pull the permit and let you do most of the work and be there to answer questions and inspect your work, along with being there for inspections.

Good luck finding a licensed electrician that would work with you on a job like that. It opens him up to tremendous liability issues (ie: fires caused by your work. etc.)
I sure wouldn't

 

[mm08822]

......In the end, it is all about personalities and egos... I stroke the **** out of them and never had a problem.

So true. You have to know what you are doing ahead of time for the entire job. It can’t be ½ thought through. The inspector is not there for teaching.
You have to know your rights as to what is permitted by law and what is not – law, not just what the inspector says to makes his job easier. Just be matter of fact about that without an attitude and do leave some room in the entire conversation his inputs and find out his pet-peves about the job details.

Also the Op may want to call the # on top of the Homeowner exemption form and discuss this exact scenario of a service change to hear it from the state. Ask specific q’s about q’s/statements that are running rampant on the internet about what can/can’t be done in your area. Get their name and #.

Other things the OP should ask himself before pursuing the permit:
Can you SAFELY disconnect and reconnect from the service drop?
Do you have the correct tools and gloves to do this?
Falling from the top of a ladder can be just as deadly as a shock.
If you have to involve an electrician for this, is it worth the hassle of you doing part of the job?

Does your POCO permit disconnect/reconnect by anyone other than them?
That includes pulling/installing the meter.
Do they require inspection and subsequent cut-in card to reconnect?
Does your POCO require a specific meter pan?
Do they provide it or can you purchase elsewhere?

 

[Rock knocker]

1) Research the codes your locality is following, to make sure that there is not in fact a local code which negates the HO exemption in the NEC.

2) If as the NEC allows, HO's can wire their own home, or a duplex occupied 1/2 by them, get a permit and wire your house.

3) Ascertain who inspects, the state, local or private special inspectors

4) Call for an inspection.

5) If inspections are carried out by local government, and the inspector won't inspect your work because you're not a licensed sparky, raise holly hell. He is in violation of the NEC and probably state law

 

[mm08822]

1) Research the codes your locality is following, to make sure that there is not in fact a local code which negates the HO exemption in the NEC.

2) If as the NEC allows, HO's can wire their own home, or a duplex occupied 1/2 by them, get a permit and wire your house.

3) Ascertain who inspects, the state, local or private special inspectors

4) Call for an inspection.

5) If inspections are carried out by local government, and the inspector won't inspect your work because you're not a licensed sparky, raise holly hell. He is in violation of the NEC and probably state law

NEC does not regulate any of that. State laws and/or local ordinances more likely.

 

[zak77]

Let's say you know a licensed electrician and he's willing to work with you on your project. You show him the plans and discuss what you want out of the project. He then makes a list of materials and how to install them to code. You do the manual labor and leave the wires near the panel for final connection. He comes in, verifies your work is to code and makes final connections after he sees you didnt F something up. He calls for final inspection using his license and inspector comes out, sees everything is up to code and signs off. And inspectors can be VERY arbitrary when it comes to this stuff. One inspector might not care an unlicensed person ran wire and another might refuse to sign-off. I see and hear about it all the time. You dont like, take them to court and fight the battle. See who wins but it's gonna cost you a lot and take a long time.

As long as you know what you're doing, then just do it. But if you dont know what you're doing, find someone who does. I've seen signed-off work that makes me shake my head. While it may be code, there is a better way to do it and still be within the code book. So just because someone has a license, it doesnt make them good at their profession. Caring about the quality of their work makes them a true professional.

 

[JRC3]

*unsubscribed*

 

[bczygan]

Hope you didn't identify your location with the inspector.

Just do it.

Around here, there are plenty of guys who will make the final hot connections for you. They are used to working hot when making illegal hookups or stealing wire.

The problem that hasn't been addressed, is the service drop and transformer. Are they adequate for the upgrade?

I'm going to upgrade my 60A service to 200A. Luckily, they recently went through and provided new transformers for every 4 houses and new drops for some houses. Mine was included. So I'm all set. Don't have to bother anyone. Just do it!



Bill

 

[bczygan]

from all the input it seems I need to clarify..

sounds like they won't issue a permit, because the inspector won't inspect the work. I am fully competent and comfortable with wiring. however I don't know everything, and want the inspectors ok as an additional safety. I also am fully capable of looking up current code (no pun intended lol)

as far as forcing me to go with an electrician thus greasing his buddies palms, yeah it does sound like that, however a full frontal attack will most certainly screw me over, as I have a list of things I would like to do, and he's the one who has to sign off.

I obviously could just wing it, but I want to play it safe and have my work checked as added insurance. but looks like that might be an option.

I live in Athol Massachusetts

Robert Legare Building Inspector (978) 249-3834

 

[James-W]

Good luck finding a licensed electrician that would work with you on a job like that. It opens him up to tremendous liability issues (ie: fires caused by your work. etc.)
I sure wouldn't.

I don't understand that. Take for example my garage. I got the permits and wired it all myself, including connecting everything to the main panel. I did not need a licensed electrician to do anything except to install the main service itself.

But let's suppose the local rules are that I need a licensed electrician to do the work. What difference does it make whose hands physically do the work? If I do the wiring and I do it strictly according to code, why does it matter if my hands did the work or the electricians hands did the work?

When I finish wiring the garage the licensed electrician can plainly see what I did and how I did it. If I did something wrong he can see that right away and tell me to change it. If I don't change it, he doesn't sign off on it. But in the final analysis, I cannot see any difference in whose hands physically did the work, as long as it is done right.

 

[bczygan]

Called the city of Athol.

Gary Torral (May have spelled it wrong) is the electrical inspector.

Verified with the office that he will not inspect it. He has the legal right by law to do that.

Lady is checking if the alternate inspector will.

If not, the option is to leave the permit open forever. No penalty from the city. Only difficulty is that if house burns down, insurance can deny coverage.

Bill

 

[LXCam]

NEC does not regulate any of that. State laws and/or local ordinances more likely.

Exactly. The only language within the NEC is in article 100 which states "in a workmanship like manor". Sadly that is open to interpretation at times. But if the job is 100% within compliance including being neat and tidy you have a leg to stand in moving up the ladder. As previously said, if the municipality allows the HO to do the work, the inspector has no right to dictate anything further then code compliance. But there are two other considerations. One the local POCO may require "X" for installation of the service as well all the load calculations being completed by a qualified individual. Basically nullifying the ability of the HO to install that portion.

I don't understand that. Take for example my garage. I got the permits and wired it all myself, including connecting everything to the main panel. I did not need a licensed electrician to do anything except to install the main service itself.

But let's suppose the local rules are that I need a licensed electrician to do the work. What difference does it make whose hands physically do the work? If I do the wiring and I do it strictly according to code, why does it matter if my hands did the work or the electricians hands did the work?

When I finish wiring the garage the licensed electrician can plainly see what I did and how I did it. If I did something wrong he can see that right away and tell me to change it. If I don't change it, he doesn't sign off on it. But in the final analysis, I cannot see any difference in whose hands physically did the work, as long as it is done right.

It's pretty simple James. There's no way in hell I'd put my license, bond and liability on the line for anyone. If I were to co-complete an installation my scope would be clearly defined both in contract with the owner and within the permit scope. I've held my C-10 in Ca for over 30yrs without even one minor blemish and would never let someone chance screwing that up no matter who it was.

 

[Rock knocker]

I don't understand that. Take for example my garage. I got the permits and wired it all myself, including connecting everything to the main panel. I did not need a licensed electrician to do anything except to install the main service itself.

But let's suppose the local rules are that I need a licensed electrician to do the work. What difference does it make whose hands physically do the work? If I do the wiring and I do it strictly according to code, why does it matter if my hands did the work or the electricians hands did the work?

When I finish wiring the garage the licensed electrician can plainly see what I did and how I did it. If I did something wrong he can see that right away and tell me to change it. If I don't change it, he doesn't sign off on it. But in the final analysis, I cannot see any difference in whose hands physically did the work, as long as it is done right.

I think it's probably the rules that state a licensed electrian or apprentices under his control do the work when the electrical contractor is recieving payment.

 

[mm08822]

Called the city of Athol.

Gary Torral (May have spelled it wrong) is the electrical inspector.

Verified with the office that he will not inspect it. He has the legal right by law to do that.

Lady is checking if the alternate inspector will.

If not, the option is to leave the permit open forever. No penalty from the city. Only difficulty is that if house burns down, insurance can deny coverage.

Bill

So that's the whole point here - what are the adopted laws/ordinances wrt this topic. Call back and ask for the specific law - get all the nomenclature identifying that law as written in the books so it can be looked up by others and not just thru hearsay out of that office.

If they won't issue a permit to start, you can't call asking for inspection.

As for insurance, that seems to be a continuing urban myth. If you do have a permit, did call for inspection, and inspector is a no show, then it's on them for failure to inspect. Some locations state there is a mandatory window that an inspection must be performed by once the request is made.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Leaving "the permit open forever" means not calling for inspections.
Here if you don't call for an inspection every 180 days, you're required to pay fees equal to the cost of the original permit to keep it open.