Decided to play around with a welder...

[eschoendorff]

I picked up a Hobart Handler 140 today and my brother and I (no previous experience between the both of us) were out in the garage fartin' around with the thing. I gotta say, that after looking at the Lincolns at HD and Lowes, the Hobart is definitely a better quality machine. Very solid and a really nice wore feed system.

Anyway, after we were done sticking things together and burning holes through some 16ga I had lying around, I started to think... would it be possible to weld heavier 1/4"+ stuff with good penetration if you preheat the work with a MAPP gas torch? I know that the 140s generally do not have enough amperage to keep the work hot enough to get a good weld. But with external preheating, the work would become a less-effective heat sink. Just a thought....

 

[mikeatrpi]

I have used a HH140 and own a Lincoln SP-100. The HH's nice feature is the gas purge. In defending my red box in this holy war... the SP has copper windings in the transformer, versus the HH's aluminum. I will agree though the HH is definitely a quality machine.

Anyways- to weld the 1/4 plate you should bevel the joint and make two passes. Preheating will help, but I'm not certain MAPP will get the work hot enough.

Good luck, enjoy the new toy. Make sure to get a harbor freight auto dark lid... WELL WORTH IT!

 

[kartracer55]

PICTURES!!!!!!!

Yeah you can preheat but Your still probably not going to be able to do 1/4 plate with it. IIRC 1/4 is a stretch even for a 180class, single pass that is. Im not a Mig-weldor, I can make a decent weld but Im much better at stick.

The one thing you have to keep in mind about heating is that your probably not going to get it very consistent with a little MAPP torch. If its a smaller project send the Mrs. to a Day spa or something and usethe oven haha

Pictures would help, I happen to know there are a few EXCELLENT weldors on here who could probably help. What kind of wire? FCAW or are you using gas? What kind of gas? Push or Pull? One thing you can try if you really need to weld something over the machines capacity (which is probably rated for FCAW) is to bevel the edges and make multiple passes if the piece allows.

That 140 is supposed to be a damn good sheetmetal machine once you get it dialed in. I have only used a lincoln 125 on gauge metal so I cant really offer any help there.

Good luck and cover up! Sunburn from welding *****... only made that mistake once!

Haha

Jim

 

[wilbilt]

I am by no means an accomplished welder, but do own a few machines.

I have a cheapo 110 V fluxcore, but for 1/4"+ work I fire up one of the old stick machines. My welds are not pretty, but with the plugin or engine powered stick welders, I know I am getting penetration when it counts.

 

[Ign]

The HH's nice feature is the gas purge.

I've heard this before, and have yet to figure out the benefit of gas purge? Someone school me............

I've got a Hobart 210 and Miller 135, neither has gas purge and I'm not sure why I'd want it??

 

[mikeatrpi]

I've heard this before, and have yet to figure out the benefit of gas purge? Someone school me............

I've got a Hobart 210 and Miller 135, neither has gas purge and I'm not sure why I'd want it??

When I put my machine away after welding, I like to empty the shielding gas out of the lines. Each time I do it, I put the machine on the slowest wire feed setting but end up wasting 6 inches of wire every time. With the purge, you don't waste wire.

I believe I started doing this because the user manual told me to. But its been a while since I last read it... I'll try to remember and check it today.

 

[eschoendorff]

I have used a HH140 and own a Lincoln SP-100. The HH's nice feature is the gas purge. In defending my red box in this holy war... the SP has copper windings in the transformer, versus the HH's aluminum. I will agree though the HH is definitely a quality machine.

Anyways- to weld the 1/4 plate you should bevel the joint and make two passes. Preheating will help, but I'm not certain MAPP will get the work hot enough.

Good luck, enjoy the new toy. Make sure to get a harbor freight auto dark lid... WELL WORTH IT!

I got the HF auto dark lid... mine has blue flames, man!!!! I will post some pics later on today...

 

[wilbilt]

I got the HF auto dark lid... mine has blue flames, man!!!! I will post some pics later on today...

Blue flames??! I'm jealous.

 

[eschoendorff]

Okay, here's some pics, but my camera crapped out and that's why some of the pics are goofy.

First, by badass welding hat:

Next, my HH140...

And, finally, a bead of weld joining tWo pieces of 3/16" angle iron:

Nope, that's not the camera folks. My welds are really that bad! But when you realize that I've been a welder for, oh, about the last 24 hrs... well, you get the picture.

 

[D-Cal]

We all have to start somewhere man...

 

[mikeatrpi]

Do you have an angle grinder? Do yourself a favor and pick up a couple of flap discs for it. I found mine in a 10-pack on EBay. 60-80 grit will help you clean the metal before and dress your finished welds. Enjoy your new toy!

 

[PAToyota]

I'm trying to think back to when I started to give you advice on what to change. I'm thinking too much heat for too slow wire feed... What you want is a nice even sizzle. Once you've done it, you know exactly what you are going for. However, getting there on your own is sometimes difficult. If someone can set it for you that first time and you get an idea of how it should be you'll be able to get back there from then on.

 

[eschoendorff]

I'm trying to think back to when I started to give you advice on what to change. I'm thinking too much heat for too slow wire feed... What you want is a nice even sizzle. Once you've done it, you know exactly what you are going for. However, getting there on your own is sometimes difficult. If someone can set it for you that first time and you get an idea of how it should be you'll be able to get back there from then on.

That would be nice... you plan to be in MI anytime soon???

 

[kartracer55]

Im not a MIG guy, I dont claim to be, but I think your jumping ahead of yourself here.

Start off by running beads on coupons (little squares/retangles maybe 1/8-3/16 thick). For Mig, I was started off learning beads in the verticle down position. I find it to be the easiest. Set of the plate verticle and travel from top to bottom. Essenially you want to lightly drag the gas cup along the plate, just barely touching it (dont rely on the plate as a guide because you wont always hav one). Im not sure about the HOBART gun but I believe the miller guns (at least on the older 250's) and whatever guns came with linde wirefeeders, if the handle itself is close to parallel to the work and your dragging the cup, the wire angle is close to where it should be.

Traveling top to bottom like this is the easiest way to actually control the puddle itself, or so I think, just because of the way the cable is situated, the cable's weight is almost helping you progress instead of fighting it i the flat position. First start just running straight beads, try to get a piece of metal 8-10 inches long. If you have soapstone, mark some straightlines to try and follow as best you can. Once you get this decent where the beads are an even width, try manipulating the puddle. I use a bit of a curved weave, but I think everybody has thier own style and youll probably pick up yours as well.

Set up the machine according to the chart for a baseline, and try to keep the gun just ahead of the puddle as your traveling. If you go too slow, well, then your gunna be replacing the gas cup thing (at least thats what it is in TIG, i forget the correct name)

As PAtoyota mentioned, with mig you want a nice ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.... not a crackcrackcrackcrackcrack; this usually indicates the wire feed is too slow for the other variables such as heat and travel. Wire speed may be perfect but its too "hot" (amperage too high) so its burning too quickly, you will have to play around a bit. Think of the process like this... Wire feeds out, arc starts, wire "melts" and gets deposited into weld pool, arc goes out and process restarts. Your trying to achieve this so that its almost as if the arc never went out(but it DOES, which is why mig has a small HAZ). If you hear the CRACK-CRACK-CRACk imagine the wire as feeding out, arc establishing, melting back, then there is a lag for the wire to feed out enough for the arc to restablish and it starts over again. If the wire speed is too fast, your going to be putting down a ton of filler so you will speed up your weld thinking your going too slow and it will be a **** weld.

Once you start running some decent beads, take two pieces of steel, tack together at each end and try joining them with a single bead. Then put one end in a vice and do some "destructive testing" to find out how good the joint really was


Im sure Ill find something stupid that I said or that I left something out tommorow morning, so ill fix it later.

Good luck!!

Jim

 

[wilbilt]

I think the main reason I gravitate toward my old stick welders is that I'm having a hard time learning the wirefeed technique.

It's like I can't see the arc or the puddle, and end up running a bead 1/4" away from where it should be. I'm using a #10 shade in a large-window helmet.

I have been told that with the low amperage (this thing maxes out at 80A), I can use a lighter shade.

Stick welding at 120A or so, I can always see what I'm doing.

 

[eschoendorff]

Im not a MIG guy, I dont claim to be, but I think your jumping ahead of yourself here.

Start off by running beads on coupons (little squares/retangles maybe 1/8-3/16 thick). For Mig, I was started off learning beads in the verticle down position. I find it to be the easiest. Set of the plate verticle and travel from top to bottom. Essenially you want to lightly drag the gas cup along the plate, just barely touching it (dont rely on the plate as a guide because you wont always hav one). Im not sure about the HOBART gun but I believe the miller guns (at least on the older 250's) and whatever guns came with linde wirefeeders, if the handle itself is close to parallel to the work and your dragging the cup, the wire angle is close to where it should be.

Traveling top to bottom like this is the easiest way to actually control the puddle itself, or so I think, just because of the way the cable is situated, the cable's weight is almost helping you progress instead of fighting it i the flat position. First start just running straight beads, try to get a piece of metal 8-10 inches long. If you have soapstone, mark some straightlines to try and follow as best you can. Once you get this decent where the beads are an even width, try manipulating the puddle. I use a bit of a curved weave, but I think everybody has thier own style and youll probably pick up yours as well.

Set up the machine according to the chart for a baseline, and try to keep the gun just ahead of the puddle as your traveling. If you go too slow, well, then your gunna be replacing the gas cup thing (at least thats what it is in TIG, i forget the correct name)

As PAtoyota mentioned, with mig you want a nice ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.... not a crackcrackcrackcrackcrack; this usually indicates the wire feed is too slow for the other variables such as heat and travel. Wire speed may be perfect but its too "hot" (amperage too high) so its burning too quickly, you will have to play around a bit. Think of the process like this... Wire feeds out, arc starts, wire "melts" and gets deposited into weld pool, arc goes out and process restarts. Your trying to achieve this so that its almost as if the arc never went out(but it DOES, which is why mig has a small HAZ). If you hear the CRACK-CRACK-CRACk imagine the wire as feeding out, arc establishing, melting back, then there is a lag for the wire to feed out enough for the arc to restablish and it starts over again. If the wire speed is too fast, your going to be putting down a ton of filler so you will speed up your weld thinking your going too slow and it will be a **** weld.

Once you start running some decent beads, take two pieces of steel, tack together at each end and try joining them with a single bead. Then put one end in a vice and do some "destructive testing" to find out how good the joint really was


Im sure Ill find something stupid that I said or that I left something out tommorow morning, so ill fix it later.

Good luck!!

Jim

Thanks dude... some good points here. I am already doing some of these things, but i will listen for the ZZZZZZZ instead of crack (didn't know to do that). Your explanation was nice and clear. Oh, and I have found that destructive testing can actually be fun!

 

[kartracer55]

I think the main reason I gravitate toward my old stick welders is that I'm having a hard time learning the wirefeed technique.

It's like I can't see the arc or the puddle, and end up running a bead 1/4" away from where it should be. I'm using a #10 shade in a large-window helmet.

I have been told that with the low amperage (this thing maxes out at 80A), I can use a lighter shade.

Stick welding at 120A or so, I can always see what I'm doing.

When your stick welding, you have an arc at the end of a thin rod, not much obstruction of view. With both MIG and TIG, you have a gas cup/nozzle in the way. When your stick welding, you can almost look right along the welding rod if youd really needed too, so none of the light given off, as well as your view is really obstructed. With the other two processes, you need to position yourself so have a good view of the arc and the area thats lit up. For Mig verticle down, I position myself (when possible) so that I am looking down and from the side. When doing horizontals, I hunch over the gun when I can. Sort of in the 10-11 oclock position if you will. For tig, Forget it. Im almost laying my head on the table haha. I do all of this with a shade 10 or sometimes even an 11. Depending on who makes your hood, you might be able to get a shade 9 lense for it, although being an autodark its probably not worth replacing the lense.

Another thing that can really screw you up is bright light behind the hood. It creates a glare making it difficult to see through the lense. If your working in a bright shop, this may be your problem. Welding outside can be both good and bad. If its bright and sunny, it can create problems with this glare, OR it can light up the whole area, making it a bit easier to see what your doing (especially without an autodark while doing SMAW... makes it easier to get things lined up)

Im not an expert, its just a few things ive noticed. You might want to talk to SBERRY or MXTRAS for more info


Jim

 

[Down Under Bloke]

I have a 175 amp 240 volt (Australian voltage)15 amp WIA (Welding Industries of Australia) MIG. Great welder but dam heavy to lift up a ladder. I have fitted a 3m (9ft) welding lead to reduce lifting and moving. The longer lead has caused some wire feeding issues, mainly due to tight bends in the lead, when working near the welder and increased friction due to length of lead, nothing a logical mind can’t cope with.

Accompanying my welder is a Miller auto darkening helmet, in basic black because I got it before the flamed helmet trend. I think I’m the only bloke in my town without an Orange County Chopper helmet, how cool am I (Black is bad). When I purchased the helmet I was told not to drop it, as the LCD screen will break; it has survived a 3m (9ft) fall (my underwear did not LOL). The only challenge with it is when welding into the sun, it sets it off (DOH). If you don’t have an auto darkening helmet my advice is get one before the next time you flash blind yourself.

As mentioned by others flap disks for your grinder are great, you can clean splatter (or a bad weld ) without cutting divots in your work; I use 5in 40grit also good for rusty steel. The final part of my welding kit, I would not be without is arm pit length welding gloves, no more slag burns in the elbow pit for me and I can wear short sleeves witch is great in our hot humid climate.

I like welding; Am I good at it ???? Happy welding

 

[wilbilt]

When doing horizontals, I hunch over the gun when I can. Sort of in the 10-11 oclock position if you will. For tig, Forget it. Im almost laying my head on the table haha. I do all of this with a shade 10 or sometimes even an 11. Depending on who makes your hood, you might be able to get a shade 9 lense for it, although being an autodark its probably not worth replacing the lense.

Another thing that can really screw you up is bright light behind the hood. It creates a glare making it difficult to see through the lense. If your working in a bright shop, this may be your problem. Welding outside can be both good and bad. If its bright and sunny, it can create problems with this glare, OR it can light up the whole area, making it a bit easier to see what your doing (especially without an autodark while doing SMAW... makes it easier to get things lined up)

Thanks, Jim, for that info....

I don't have an autodark lid. The one I have is a large window and a common brand (Morsafe) so getting filters of differing shades isn't an issue.

A guy at work has a Speedglas autodark and swears by it, and I may go that route. It does not have blue flames on it, however...

It may be that I am not in the proper position to see the arc. I will experiment with that; I am left-handed, though, so I generally need to reverse the directions anyone gives me

I generally try to avoid welding with the light behind me. This can be difficult, especially outdoors. I have tried using a towel attached to the lid in Darth Vader fashion. This works, except that towels are generally pretty flammable.....

 

[eschoendorff]

A guy at work has a Speedglas autodark and swears by it, and I may go that route. It does not have blue flames on it, however...

If it don't have flames, then it's useless and you will go blind.

 

[kartracer55]

Hahaha nice. The one thing I must warn you about, is if you get off to the side to view the ark, make sure you dont expose yourself to the light. There is a reason they tell you to cover up your skin while welding.... you can get some nasty sunburn from it. Where you really need to watch out is on your neck between your shirt and the bottom of your hood. I made that mistake once and it was some bad sunburn... im talking full day in the blazing sun with no sun screen or anything like that. OUCH! Expect I had only been welding for about an hour and a half tops.

Jim

 

[PAToyota]

That would be nice... you plan to be in MI anytime soon???

Actually, my parents were just up there for my father's fiftieth high school reunion in Pontiac.

 

[Krodad]

Hahaha nice. The one thing I must warn you about, is if you get off to the side to view the ark, make sure you dont expose yourself to the light. There is a reason they tell you to cover up your skin while welding.... you can get some nasty sunburn from it. Where you really need to watch out is on your neck between your shirt and the bottom of your hood. I made that mistake once and it was some bad sunburn... im talking full day in the blazing sun with no sun screen or anything like that. OUCH! Expect I had only been welding for about an hour and a half tops.

Jim

Not to mention getting a spark in your ear! I never weld anything approaching overhead now without some canvas ear muffs.

 

[wilbilt]

Not to mention getting a spark in your ear! I never weld anything approaching overhead now without some canvas ear muffs.

I have received the "welder's surprise" in most ways imaginable, but never yet in the ear...that's gotta hurt!

Down the cuff, down the pants, in the shirt pocket, etc....but in the ear?

 

[weimer]

One thing to remember is with MIG you want to push the wire...IE the wire is in front, leading the puddle and with ARC you want pull the puddle. Its a little hard to explain but you will know what I am talking about when you try it.
Welding is more involved than just Heat and Wire Speed...there are also Angles that you need to use.
Later,
WEIMER

 

[Down Under Bloke]

I just picked up “Chiwanese” from Wilbilt on another thread and now “Welders Surprise” in this one I’m learning today.

I’ve had Welders Surprise in the ear not fun, also boot while up ladder and the most unforgettable down the back of the boilersuit and caught in the elastic waist band. Imagine the fear you experience as it rolls down your back wondering where it will stop and what happens next, yep it could have bee worse.

 

[D-Cal]

I bought a $30 book at Home Depot that is actually an excellent introduction to all forms of welding; MIG, TIG, ARC, spot and brazing. It's very well written and I highly recommend it.

 

[wilbilt]

I just picked up “Chiwanese” from Wilbilt on another thread and now “Welders Surprise” in this one I’m learning today.

I'm glad you find my vernacular entertaining. In person, I'm a riot. One of my friends refers to me as a "walking encyclopedia of useless information".


Seriously, the biggest problem I seem to have with wirefeed welding is that I can't see the puddle. I will try some different angles as suggested. I'm sure that I'll figure it out after some more practice.

 

[eschoendorff]

I'm glad you find my vernacular entertaining. In person, I'm a riot. One of my friends refers to me as a "walking encyclopedia of useless information".


Seriously, the biggest problem I seem to have with wirefeed welding is that I can't see the puddle. I will try some different angles as suggested. I'm sure that I'll figure it out after some more practice.

Yah, I can't see the puddle so good either. I mostly adjust my hand speed according to the sound of the sizzle.

 

[W-Cummins]

You two do know that it's ok to open your eyes when you have the welding hood down?? You only need to close them when your welding hood up on monster garage

William...

 

[eschoendorff]

You two do know that it's ok to open your eyes when you have the welding hood down?? You only need to close them when your welding hood up on monster garage

William...

No s***????!!!!!

 

[PAToyota]

The autodark helmets do make MIG a lot easier with the smaller puddles. Initially, I found that the gold lenses as opposed to the dark green lenses also helped.

 

[wilbilt]

You two do know that it's ok to open your eyes when you have the welding hood down?? You only need to close them when your welding hood up on monster garage

William...

I should probably take of my sunglasses when the hood is down, too.....

 

[ZRX61]

The only challenge with it is when welding into the sun, it sets it off (DOH).

Fiddle with the sensitivity setting

I should probably take of my sunglasses when the hood is down, too.....

I did the other day & thought someone had messed with the shade settings...

 

[Down Under Bloke]

I have to admit to only using gasless on mine, but have used gas on others years ago. I have been welding outside with 1.2mm (sorry no imperial conversion) gasless wire and around 175amps, so the shroud has been flung to some dark corner of my lock up room only to be found when the new garage/ workshop is done.