Deciding between natural gas and electric heating

[Interex]

I've got a 22x24 attached and finished garage (although there is no insulation in the ceiling and I doubt anything between the walls). Right now, I'm stuck deciding between electric or natural gas for my heating. I actually scored a Fahrenheit 5000w heater on CL last night and am very comfortable with wiring in a 220v circuit for it (I actually already wired in a temporary circuit to test the unit and it works great!). I've been reading more reviews on heaters here and see that a lot of folks are suggesting natural gas if it's available. Well, it is available in my home but I'm not comfortable with plumbing gas lines. Additionally, natural gas heaters are much more expensive so I'm looking at spending more money for the heater and then maybe for someone to come out and plumb it. Am I making this too complicated? Could I plumb the gas lines myself with ease? If not, what should I expect to pay? I've got a natural gas line running to the laundry room already which is just outside of where I want to install the heater.

I probably plan to work in the garage on the weekends and maybe a 1-2 days in the evenings during the week.

 

[Falcon67]

> Am I making this too complicated?
IMHO, no. I have gas, went electric in the shop because getting gas out there was just prohibitively expensive. I figured close to $1K on this layout. Sounds like you have gas a lot closer - but is the line big enough to feed the laundry and the shop. You might be $ ahead to add insulation, especially to the attic, before looking at gas. Hard to say from here. Gas is cheaper to use, but the payback on install costs might be pretty long.

 

[Interex]

I picked up the heater for $130, 40 ft of 10-2 cable for $35, and the circuit breaker for $10. So, now I'm looking at less than $200 installed for the 5000w electric heater sitting on my workbench. The natural gas heater alone is going to run me $430. I'll probably end up spending at least another $150 on the plumbing and other misc things. Now we're getting close to $600 installed. Now, I wonder if I could calculate the energy savings to get my payback in years....

Humm, $400 might take quite a bit of time to get back.

 

[Falcon67]

That comparison can be done, if you can get all the math in. I see you are in Dallas, so your use is probably comparable to mine since I'm 200 miles west of you. (note to RI residents - 200 miles in Texas is a Saturday shopping trip with dinner ) You can figger roughly that gas is about 50% better than electric as a guess here in Tx. In last years (2009) winter, I ran my 5K so that the shop temp stayed around 60~65. It probably boosted the power bill maybe $50/mth in Dec, Jan and Feb. I had car stuff going on in the shop all winter, so that's not really normal use. I like it because it works good, was an easy install and is portable. Mine never gets above LO on the dial, but my shop is insulated. The way our weather is - cold a bit, then we're in shorts again - you'll very likely be happy with the electric operation, especially since you got it at about half price.

 

[burleymike]

It all depends on what your electric rate is and how often it will change compared to your gas rate and how often it will change. For instance our electric rate is locked in place for 10 years but the gas fluctuates on the open market. In my market it would make sense to stay with electric but that may not be the case where you are.

 

[rickairmedic]

I say take the $400.00 savings and invest it in insulation for a quicker return on investment .



Rick

 

[vtx531]

For $400 you could run the electric heater for 800 hours or 33+ days non-stop (10cents /kwh).

 

[Falcon67]

We're paying 11.5 here. The contracts typically lock the rate for two years. We're moving to a house served by a co-op and the rate is about the same, but they are exempt from the deregulation requirements in Texas. They are pretty competitive and easy to work with.

De-reg trivia: You CAN opt for another provider if you are in a co-op, but the new provider has to buy all the equipment required to serve your connection from the existing provider.

 

[Interex]

Well, I decided to go ahead and install the Fahrenheat 5000 over the weekend. Wow, does this thing do the job! I haven't had a chance to log temperatures with it but it warms up the garage very fast. I'll post up a complete thread and review once we get some colder weather.

 

[KENLUDE97]

Bump!

So I'm have a similar dilemma. I'm buying a new(to me) house. The garage that is there has very limited Electric and no insulation. So i have to transform the space into a workshop. I'm planning on full wiring, insulation, OSB on the walls painted a gloss white. I also will need heat, i HATE the cold! lol I have seen the G73 and that is intriguing... But Natural gas is cheaper in the area compared to Electric. But the heater itself is cheaper in Electric.

Im not against getting a used Gas heater to cut down on the cost....

Thoughts?!

Thanks

Oh and here is the house/garage that im going to be transforming.

 

[Interex]

In the end, I used this to calculate my cost of heating per BTU:

http://www.ultimategarageheater.com/garage-heater-energy-cost-calculator.php

I was just looking at electric and natural gas so I pulled my costs from my most recent utility bills.

For electricity, I'm paying $0.10/kWh.
For natural gas, I'm paying $1.16/therm (my bill shows per MFC but I converted it by dividing by 10).

Using 17,060 BTU (what the G73 puts out), the cost of heating for electric comes out to $0.50/hour while the cost for natural gas comes out to $0.25/hour. Wow! A 50% reduction! But wait...lets review the cost difference. For me, I was looking an additional $400 to install the gas heater. When I took some rough estimates, I figured that I would use the heater for 4 months out of the year. During those months, I might spend a total of 8 hours in the garage every weekend which totals out to 32 hours of heating/year. Now, if I'm looking at saving $0.25/hour by going with gas, all I need to do is divide my $400 investment by $0.25 to find how out many hours I will need to use the heater to get my 'payback'. 400/0.25=1,600. Now divide my 1,600 hours by my estimated use of 128 hours/year and what do I get? 12.5 years.

Now, I lucked out with my heater purchase by scoring it on CL but lets say I was to buy it from Northern Tool, right now @ $279.

Heater cost - $279
50 ft. 10/2 wire @ $1.50/ft - $60
30 Amp 2-pole breaker - $10
Misc Electrical - $20

Total materials cost - $369
Total electrician cost - $0 (since I'm comfortable doing the work myself)

Installed cost - $369

Now, for the natural gas heater:
Heater cost - $430
50 ft 14/2 wire - $25
Vent ducting - $50?
Plumbing materials - $50?
Thermostat - $20

Total materials cost - $575
Total plumber cost for gas lines - $150

Installed cost - $725

That's a difference of $350. Now it's a mater if figuring out how much heating YOU plan to use.

 

[KENLUDE97]

Correct me if im wrong...

But i think you missed it with your Time calculations?

8 hrs per week
4 weeks per month
4 months per year

So that is 8*4*4= 128 hrs/yr

400/0.25=1,600
1600/128=12.5 yrs

 

[Interex]

Correct me if im wrong...

But i think you missed it with your Time calculations?

8 hrs per week
4 weeks per month
4 months per year

So that is 8*4*4= 128 hrs/yr

400/0.25=1,600
1600/128=12.5 yrs

Doh! You are correct. Forgot to multiply by 4 again.

 

[D.J.]

Interex: It's not fair to include the labor on it and not on the electric! Anybody with mechanical ability should be able to apply teflon tape and pipe dope to the connections and screw all above together with a couple of pipe wrenches. To make it a fair fight don't include the labor in either application or include labor into both! Just my $ .02
D.J.
________
Zx14 Vs Hayabusa

 

[KENLUDE97]

Wile i agree that the labor should be factored into both or none... Nothing against you Interex So if you factor the labor out (that is what works for ME)

I come up with

200/0.25=800
800/128= 6.25 yrs

So it would be about 6yrs for it too pay you "back". For me that is a decent time of payback.

 

[KENLUDE97]

Here is what i came up with the time it takes to "pay off" the cost of a Gas unit compared to a Electric unit.

8 hrs per week use

4 months use
200/0.25=800
800/128= 6.25 yrs

6month use
200/0.25=800
800/192= 4.16 yrs

8month use
200/0.25=800
800/256= 3.13 yrs

12 months use (just for kicks)
200/0.25=800
800/384= 2 yrs

10hrs per week use

4 months use
200/0.25=800
800/160= 5 yrs

6month use
200/0.25=800
800/240= 3.33 yrs

8month use
200/0.25=800
800/256= 2.5 yrs

12 months use (just for kicks)
200/0.25=800
800/480= 1.66 yrs

 

[gtivr4]

I'd be interested to see how it comes out if you include the cost of insulation into the equation. That would mean the heater runs less, but even more upfront cost. Also curious as to how a portable propane unit would compare since the upfront cost can be very low, and running costs aren't too bad (just need to ensure its ventilated well).

Oh and Ken - nice to see another Locoster on here!

 

[KENLUDE97]

I'm not sure if that is figuring in insulation or not, or really how to figure that out... Im not a HVAC guy, But i would be willing to guess that when they say it heats a 500sq/ft area it means a insulated area... I bet that the heater would have to be oversized to heat a uninsulated area.

To insulate my garage 16x24 it will cost about $225 with R13.

But i would not just count the Insulation in the winter'ing cost. It makes a BIG diff here in the summer as well, and im only in NY, so it does not get that hot.

For me to take this garage shell to a workable space Wiring, insulation, lights, recessed speakers, tv, paint ect will run me about $1500 (lights $300, obs $210, insulation $225) the rest is electrical.

Thanks! I've got to make the new shop comfy for the winter work. I've got my car with engine and ****** in it, Basically a roller!! But i will not be able to work on the car until after the move! But the garage is a little bigger so that is good.

 

[cheap bastard]

Garage heat is needed in Dallas? Never would have thought that.

 

[KENLUDE97]

I have seen snow on the ground wile watching Dallas Cowboys games... They prolly need it as much as we need dedicated AC systems up here in NY. (not much use)

 

[Interex]

The only reason I didn't include labor for the electric was due to the fact that I feel very comfortable with installing a new breaker and running some Romex through my attic. I've never done any type of hard pipe plumbing and I was sure wasn't going to try it out on gas lines. In my home, I didn't have any branches coming off my main line that were near the heater so I would have likely needed to cut the main and thread the pipe to add a T and connectors.

Garage heat is needed in Dallas? Never would have thought that.

Yep! Monthly average temps for December and January are in the 30's. In the evenings, we're normally at freezing or just below it. Some days get down into the 20's and teens!

 

[scuba0459]

running gas is not that difficult. I would say it is as easy as plumbing or electrical. HD will cut the pipe and thread it if you need it and their is also flexible tubing for gas.

Where I live you would likely never heat with electricity so gas becomes the only option. Right now it is quite warm outside at -20c or just below 0F


Albert