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Deciding between wildly different estimates

Tynee

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Sep 19, 2016
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In the Heart of the Bluegrass
The op’s project is very simple, both in scope and execution. On a proposal for something similar I’ll spec shingle type and manufacturer, crete psi, and slab thickness. Garage doors are x, etc. I will not break down labor by line item nor material by line item. It isn’t worth my time, nor am I going to play the game you spec’d x recessed can for 11.88 and I found them for 11.33. That’s just an example. I purchase at a better price then any homeowner will have access to. I’m sure its the same for any good reputable contractor any where. Its perfectly acceptable for the homeowner to say what they would like, but if a homeowner starts making a simple bid process so complicated they take a very big risk of a good contractor seeing a potential nuisance client and simply passing. What you are suggesting is the norm for any government contract, but for a simple residential project it isnt necessary unless your suspect of the contractor, and in that case you pass yourself.

Understand all this, that’s why I said I didnt know if he’d find a builder willing to do all that, but if he had one willing to be that transparent, it’s likey a solid, professional contractor.

I also never suggested that he go try to price stuff himself. You’re right, that’s an obvious waste of time.

With all that said, on a $40k job, if a builder isnt willing to give me SOME information to help me choose him, there’s a real strong chance I didnt want to work with him to start with.

OP asked for advice, he can take mine or leave it.
 
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sberry

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I'm consistently the low bidder in my line of work and it's only because we charge a 33% markup on parts and the actual labour time, not double of everything like the others. We still lose 75% of the jobs because people are spooked by the lowest price.

I don't build garages but I'm suggesting you do your research. Low bidder isn't always bad workmanship.

My boss took the middle bid to do his roof. I did the math and it worked out that he got charged $100 an hour for every $15 an hour laborer that was on site. What a rip off.

What logic is there to being the low bidder if you lose 3/4 of the work due to it?
 

Trey T

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Houston, TX
Well, I think I figured out why the low bidder came in so low. After some back and forth, I don't think he has a license nor is he insured. I asked to see these things and at first got a "ok, i'll send them over." After a day or so and me asking again, he said he was waiting to get all the licenses and insurance from the subs he uses.

Then I got a call from him telling me that he just recently was getting some phone calls from unhappy customers of jobs that he never did. After some research with his attorney, they figured out the calls were for a defunct company of the same name. His attorney advised him to close his company so he did that. He then said he joined up with a friend who owns a roofing company that he does a lot of work with anyway. So now he would be doing the work under that company. He sent me the business license and liability insurance of the roofing company. Turns out that a roofing company does not need a contractor license in Georgia.

I got all of this Friday afternoon so I haven't had a chance to speak with him since, but this all sounds like a big fish story to me. I actually called one of his references who I already talked with that spoke very highly of him and he said he never asked about his license or insurance. I've also looked him up on the Georgia professional licensing website and I can't find him or his company. I can, however, find the other 3 that gave me estimates. Big fish story or what? :bs:
He's (or his company) supposed to have the necessary construction license or specific trade license because he's the one conducting the oversight and be held accountable.

There are many reasons why such a huge institution of trade licensing exist. If you don't have time to figure out the fundamental or its intent of licensing, just void the ones w/o license and liability insurance.
 

nolimits76

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Messages
959
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Oklahoma
Another outside the box idea is to see if a contractor you like will accept "time plus materials". I've had guys I paid hourly for the workers plus materials plus 15% overhead. He gave me a list of the hours every two weeks and all the receipts for the materials. The 15% overhead was also applied to both the time and the materials.
It's actually a great way to do a project, as you know you are never paying for an "overbid" and the contractor never has to rush and skimp to make a profit. If you want a change or something done in a more time consuming way, it's not a problem for the contractor, you just have to pay for the extra time or material.

The big problem with doing time and materials is that if you do not have a good estimate or if you make expensive changes you can end up way over budget and run out of money. That is a very good reason to use a fixed price contract and change orders for modifications to the plan. But if you can handle it, the time plus materials seems like the fairest system to me.

This is a PITA for both the contractor and owner. Also I disagree with the logic that it's a better deal. It really depends on the contractor. Sometimes a contractor will push their guys harder when it's a fixed contract because using too much labor cuts into their profits. If you are on time & material basis, there isn't much incentive for all parties to be fast & efficient. Plus, most homeowners don't know squat about the proper amount of time to build different elements of the project nor do they have the time to baby sit their contractors to ensure all employees are working when they are logging time.

I think this is a frustrating option for all involved that won't yield the desired result and puts your project at greater risk of going over budget.


The op’s project is very simple, both in scope and execution. On a proposal for something similar I’ll spec shingle type and manufacturer, crete psi, and slab thickness. Garage doors are x, etc. I will not break down labor by line item nor material by line item. It isn’t worth my time, nor am I going to play the game you spec’d x recessed can for 11.88 and I found them for 11.33. That’s just an example. I purchase at a better price then any homeowner will have access to. I’m sure its the same for any good reputable contractor any where. Its perfectly acceptable for the homeowner to say what they would like, but if a homeowner starts making a simple bid process so complicated they take a very big risk of a good contractor seeing a potential nuisance client and simply passing. What you are suggesting is the norm for any government contract, but for a simple residential project it isnt necessary unless your suspect of the contractor, and in that case you pass yourself.

Understand all this, that’s why I said I didnt know if he’d find a builder willing to do all that, but if he had one willing to be that transparent, it’s likey a solid, professional contractor.

I also never suggested that he go try to price stuff himself. You’re right, that’s an obvious waste of time.

With all that said, on a $40k job, if a builder isnt willing to give me SOME information to help me choose him, there’s a real strong chance I didnt want to work with him to start with.

OP asked for advice, he can take mine or leave it.


There's probably a balance somewhere between 1 lump sum price @ $X and breaking out a detailed line item account. Charlie is correct in the fact that is pretty normal on government contracts. Done a few of those myself, and while the list gives some people warm & fuzzies there are lots of ways to hide your money in those line items.

I think the main intent should be to have a solid and detailed enough scope of work so that both parties clearly understand what is required of one another without assumption. If having X brand of doors at a certain dimension and color is important, then put it in the contract. On the flip side, you probably don't care too much about the brand of electrical wire as long as it's sufficiently gauged to carry the loads you need/designed for your garage. However, saying you want a 200 amp service so the builder doesn't include a 100 amp service would be a worthwhile thing to put in the contract.

There is validity in the fact the more particular you are and harder to deal with then the contractor will push his price up on you, or decline to bid if you are at a level he feels will be detrimental to him.

Overall, just be reasonable and detailed enough so you can defend yourself if you go to court, but not over the top crazy. Like most things in life -- balance is required.

What logic is there to being the low bidder if you lose 3/4 of the work due to it?

LOL, my thoughts too when I read that. Increase your price and be more greedy and get more work. Seems like a win-win.


He's (or his company) supposed to have the necessary construction license or specific trade license because he's the one conducting the oversight and be held accountable.

There are many reasons why such a huge institution of trade licensing exist. If you don't have time to figure out the fundamental or its intent of licensing, just void the ones w/o license and liability insurance.

I'd hate to get into a debate over why licensing exists and it's fundamental reasons, lol. That said, in this situation it's pretty clear the contractor needs a license and for whatever reason he lost his ability to do that and is flying under someone else. At the least this is shady and probably a headache the OP wants to avoid.
 

tapered-pin

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Alpharetta, GA
There is NO WAY they all priced the same exact building.

tell them you want it broken out as follows:

General Conditions
Concrete (building/sidewalk)
Masonry (?)
Steel Structure (?)
Carpentry (framing/sheathing/siding/trim)
Thermal & Moisture Protection (Insulation/Roofing/Caulking)
Doors & Windows (doors/sectional doors/windows)
Finishes (drywall/acoustical ceilings/concrete polishing?/painting)
Plumbing
HVAC
Electrical

and if he self performs the work, tell him you want to know how much of his labor is allocated to each of the items in the breakdown.

Are they supervisors who manage all sub crews (so there's one man that doesn't touch any tools) or is he the guy swinging the hammer and he's building everything except the plumbing/hvac/electrical with his crew?


my gut tells me that the guy at $44K is probably going to end up costing you somewhere around $55K by the time it's all said and done.
the reality is that this kind of work is NEVER done without additional change orders.. (so it's not like the guy at $57K wont be adding to his original quote either)
 

6768rogues

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Nov 28, 2007
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Western NY
Don't pay attention to his truck. He spends his days in the truck and probably wants a nice one. Check insurance and references, also call suppliers to see if he is a reliable customer. Then go with what your gut tells you.
 

WhiffySpark

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Oct 22, 2009
Messages
6,252
He's (or his company) supposed to have the necessary construction license or specific trade license because he's the one conducting the oversight and be held accountable.

There are many reasons why such a huge institution of trade licensing exist. If you don't have time to figure out the fundamental or its intent of licensing, just void the ones w/o license and liability insurance.

Yeah it’s just another avenue to collect more money from us. One license I have they don’t even sent us a new I’d card with an updated expiration date. I just pay $400-500 and they update their computer.
 

WhiffySpark

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Oct 22, 2009
Messages
6,252
Another outside the box idea is to see if a contractor you like will accept "time plus materials". I've had guys I paid hourly for the workers plus materials plus 15% overhead. He gave me a list of the hours every two weeks and all the receipts for the materials. The 15% overhead was also applied to both the time and the materials.
It's actually a great way to do a project, as you know you are never paying for an "overbid" and the contractor never has to rush and skimp to make a profit. If you want a change or something done in a more time consuming way, it's not a problem for the contractor, you just have to pay for the extra time or material.
The big problem with doing time and materials is that if you do not have a good estimate or if you make expensive changes you can end up way over budget and run out of money. That is a very good reason to use a fixed price contract and change orders for modifications to the plan. But if you can handle it, the time plus materials seems like the fairest system to me.

Time and materials is the worst to me. Sorry but 99% of the public isn’t willing to pay our true hourly rate. Joe blow in a pick up will probably do it anytime because he puts that whole $15 an hour you pay him into his pocket.
 

Vintage Veloce

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San Diego
Time and materials is the worst to me. Sorry but 99% of the public isn’t willing to pay our true hourly rate. Joe blow in a pick up will probably do it anytime because he puts that whole $15 an hour you pay him into his pocket.

LOL. I wasn't suggesting that it was necessarily the cheap option. But done right, it can be fair. Around here, that might mean $70/hour for the skilled head guy and $35/hour for the regular guys. Plus the 15% overhead/profit on both the labor and materials. So for a 3 man team that would be $1334/day for the labor alone...
 
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WhiffySpark

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LOL. I wasn't suggesting that it was necessarily the cheap option. But done right, it can be fair. Around here, that might mean $70/hour for the skilled head guy and $35/hour for the regular guys. Plus the 15% overhead/profit on both the labor and materials. So for a 3 man team that would be $1334/day for the labor alone...

And how many people would pay that? You’re a bit off on your numbers lol

If someone isn’t charging $60+ a man hour, it’s a hobby.

People try to calculator my per hour rate and then freak out it’s more than they make.

They also don’t pay enough in taxes to buy a new car :lol_hitti
 

DRP6833

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Feb 10, 2011
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504
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Firestone, CO
Look carefully at the quote details. I got bids for pouring some concrete walks and one bid was considerably low. Turns out he forgot one section. Maybe your low bid didn't include something.
 

nolimits76

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Jul 11, 2013
Messages
959
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Oklahoma
I ran across this article in my inbox today and found it interesting because first Skanska is a massive construction firm. This particular article deals with their commercial building division.

Secondly it briefly discusses the risks associated with building projects on a time & material (T&M) basis.

https://www.constructiondive.com/ne...eum-claiming-millions-in-unpaid-bills/521502/

Skanska was on a fixed-payment schedule until March 2017 and then was to be paid on a time-and-materials (T&M) basis contract from that point forward. T&M contracts and cost-plus construction contracts provide transparency to the owner and can reduce risks for contractors if there are unknown conditions on the project.

However, there are potential downsides for both parties. If owners don't have staff with construction experience overseeing the project, there is a risk that the project will go over budget. Inexperience on the part of the owner and staff can also negatively impact contractors if they have to constantly explain the construction process or end up butting heads over issues the client might not fully understand.

Regardless, for a T&M or cost-plus project to be successful, it's critical that the owner and contractor maintain a good working relationship so that they can work out their differences and don't, unlike Skanska and the Miami museum, end up battling in court.
 

bmwpowere36m3

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And how many people would pay that? You’re a bit off on your numbers lol

If someone isn’t charging $60+ a man hour, it’s a hobby.

People try to calculator my per hour rate and then freak out it’s more than they make.

They also don’t pay enough in taxes to buy a new car :lol_hitti

That's likely location specific... but I know certain guys on the job will get that or less. Exactly how VV laid out it... skilled guy makes X, laborer makes Y + overhead.
 

WhiffySpark

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That's likely location specific... but I know certain guys on the job will get that or less. Exactly how VV laid out it... skilled guy makes X, laborer makes Y + overhead.

No it’s not location specific. It’s business 101

What you don’t realize is the cost for employees doesn’t stop at their hourly wage.

We have federal and state taxes, Medicare, social security, workers comp, insurance, etc and that’s just direct cost for said person. We also have to account for replacing tools, trucks, buildings, advertising etc.

If you have a legal business billing out someone at $35 an hour they will not be around long. Or they’ll be threading water and can’t realize why.

What I pay an employee has no bearing on what they get billed out as.
 

nolimits76

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No it’s not location specific. It’s business 101

What you don’t realize is the cost for employees doesn’t stop at their hourly wage.

Agree COST doesn't stop at the hourly wage. However, that base wage rate is determined by outside factors like location, union or non-union, workforce availability or sparsity, specific skill levels, etc.

We have federal and state taxes, Medicare, social security, workers comp, insurance, etc and that’s just direct cost for said person.

Correct. This is called burdened labor. It varies widely from company to company with much of the variance being based on location (state laws), benefits packages offered (union or non-union really come into play here), insurance modifier rates, etc.

Generally speaking, I've seen about 35-40% on top of the hourly wage to cover all these burdens.

So for a guy I'd pay $20/hour, he really COSTS me about $27-28/hour depending on my actual burden.


We also have to account for replacing tools, trucks, buildings, advertising etc.

Generally speaking this is called overhead. On government contracts you are usually limited to around 10-15%. Private contracts you might be able to get more. FYI, Overhead is usually a separate line item that is calculated by percentage on T&M bids. On lump sum bids, you have the luxury to include actual costs on things you can foresee and then usually apply percentages or cost history for other less tangible items.

Wither overhead figured, you can then apply markup. Again, this varies widely and private contracts is typically more, but most government contracts limits markup to 10-20%. For lump sum quotes, the sky is the limit as long as the customer accepts your quote.

If you have a legal business billing out someone at $35 an hour they will not be around long. Or they’ll be threading water and can’t realize why.

Let's just assume an average worker makes $20/hour:

$20 base cost x 1.35 burden = $27/hour adj cost x 1.10 overhead = $29.70 x 1.10 markup = $32.67/hour

Granted that's the low side of the percentages and I'm not advocating everyone stays in business on 10% markups. Usually in government contracts where you break down time & materials you charge for every little thing possible. And if you are using a similar situation to charge for your equipment & materials, then yes, billing at $32.67/hour can keep you profitable.

How? Because once you figure 10% over total cost of all labor, equipment and material costs that is usually a good return on your labor risk. Especially when we consider materials are basically zero risk and the majority of the dollars on any project. Equipment can be more tricky depending if you own or rent, but either way you have real costs for equipment capitalization or outside rental charges.


What I pay an employee has no bearing on what they get billed out as.

In the above examples, what you pay an employee does have bearing. At least on T&M contracts, and probably moreso in the government sector than private sector. When doing lump sum contracts, your labor costs should be capped at $27/hour (with the fake example used above, and will certainly fail in specific models) in the above calculations and then once you determine final cost you can put whatever profit margin you want on the entire job. At least for a cost-plus perspective, where you add greed/profit at the end after you fully understand and analyze the costs & risks of the projects you are bidding and considering quoting.

Hands down, not every project is a 10% markup job. Some are much more as they are low volume, more complex & risky, no competition, etc. Others may have great volume, feels a need, has stiff competition, etc and may be taken for less.
 
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