Deck Ledger Water Intrusion - Thoughts?

[GMoney1572]

Hello - Long time lurker, first time poster.

I've learned a lot about construction techniques from reading this forum, so I was hoping to get some thoughts on a situation I have.

Our house was built in '03, we bought it in '10. Immediately after buying it we noticed rain water running out of the tops of the windows and patio door in the partially exposed and finished basement under the deck. I don't know if we had recourse back to the seller at that point, but we didn't pursue it because they were selling the house because of financial reasons. And we figured you couldn't get blood from a turnip....

I poked around, and sprayed the side of the house with a hose. I narrowed it down to water getting in through the gap between the ledger board and sheathing below it (see picture below). It's about a 3/8 inch gap.

It doesn't appear that the builders used Z flashing behind the ledger, they used some vinyl corner type flashing. It's basically a right angle (black piece in my picture). They used the same flashing above the ledger too.

For whatever reason, the sheathing below the deck is slightly proud of the ledger board. I've not seen that before, I have no idea if that's an approved/code practice or not. It makes things more challenging though.

There is also vinyl siding below the deck, which is the blue stuff in my picture. The J trim is flush with the lower edge of the ledger/sheathing gap and is nailed over the lower flashing. So any water that flashing has on it ends up behind the siding.

I did have the flashing on the leaking windows and doors looked at by a reputable contractor in the area. He said it was up to snuff.

I had a contractor out to look at the deck, who told me I had a %$@* of a mess and he was going to have to remove the deck to fix it. I decided to buy time with a short time fix, so I caulked the gap instead. That's kept things tight and dry till this spring, it's leaking again and looks like the caulk is beginning to fail.

I can scrape the caulk out and re-caulk, but I'm hoping to get some suggestions on a more permanent fix. I'd prefer DIY friendly ones, but realize I might have to get the pros involved. This deck goes the length of our house, and is ground level on one end and 10 feet off the ground on the other. I'm not going to tackle any major surgery on it myself.

The only idea I have at the moment is putting some wider flashing with a drip edge above the ledger. That would at least keep the water off the ledger board, which would minimize water heading for the gap below the ledger. But it doesn't really solve the underlying problem.

Any wild ideas? Or is it time to go with major surgery?

 

[Kevin54]

Can you snap an actual pic of what you are dealing with? I understand MOST of your drawing, but I know I'm missing something.

Also, what size of deck are we talking about? A small 8x10 or a huge multi-level custom deck?

Then we can most likely give a more concise answer

 

[GMoney1572]

Can you snap an actual pic of what you are dealing with? I understand MOST of your drawing, but I know I'm missing something.

Also, what size of deck are we talking about? A small 8x10 or a huge multi-level custom deck?

Then we can most likely give a more concise answer

Will do. I'll get some pictures tonight. I was afraid the drawing might be confusing, but thought I'd give it the old college try. An artist I'm not!

This deck runs the length of our house. It's 50 feet by 12. Nothing custom or multilevel about it. It's just big...

 

[larry4406]

Originally, the siding should have been removed, the house flashed 14-16" tall ( I like to overlap the top of foundation by about 1") then the ledger installed, then Z-flashed with this sealed to the flashing previously installed, deck built, a trim piece installed below the ledger if desired, and then a siding repair above the deck.

 

[GMoney1572]

Here are some pictures.....first an overall pic to show the layout.

 

[GMoney1572]

The view looking up. The white is the flashing from top side of the deck.

And head on. The grey line is where I caulked the gap between the ledger and sheathing (or what I thought was sheathing - more on that later.)

 

[GMoney1572]

I apparently have Undersill Trim inside J channel on the top of the siding?

 

[GMoney1572]

Finally, my attempt to show the flashing under the vinyl J channel. It's hard to see, but its the same white vinyl flashing they used on top. The edge of it runs right above the top of my finger.

Hopefully this helps! While doing this, I also realized that it's not sheathing under the tyvec paper. It's foam board.

 

[Kaizen]

I'd start at the top of that door and make sure that is flashed right. If there isn't any flashing any rain will run right in funneled by the j channel. I think if it were me i'd carefully remove all the siding under that area and see what is going on. Also look for rot.

Then i'd take off the siding above the deck for a few rows and see what is under there. You could jerry rig some flashing and put some self sealing rubber but not the perfect answer. The good news is looks like your decking is running along the house so you just have to take one board up. Maybe using some long flashing and rubber will get you through another ten years or more.
You need to rip off some stuff to see

 

[theoldwizard1]

I had a contractor out to look at the deck, who told me I had a %$@* of a mess and he was going to have to remove the deck to fix it.

Sadly, he is correct. Well at least mostly. The ledger board has to come off. Period. Whether that means completely disassembling the deck is another question.

Their should be Z-flashing that goes over the sheathing and up behind the ledger board. Of course then water will run down the face of the sheathing whi is not the best either, unless you know that the sheathing has a really good covering over it (not just house wrap).

Another sort of "out of the box idea" is get a coil of extra wide painted aluminum flashing, probably 18-24" wide and make your own Z-flashing that start above the ledger and behind the siding above the deck, runs down the width of the ledger and then out over the top molding of siding below. Of course putting holes through this flashing for nail and lag bolt is not the best idea. Apply some of that flexible, rubber, sticky wrap on the ledger board.

 

[GMoney1572]

I'd start at the top of that door and make sure that is flashed right. If there isn't any flashing any rain will run right in funneled by the j channel.

I'm learning as I go here. Based on some Googling, it looks like the flashing around the doors and windows should look something like this? I think it should be OK, since I had someone specifically look at it, but the old saying of "trust but verify" applies here too.

 

[Kaizen]

I believe your sliding door is missing at least number 5. I have no idea what 6 is supposed to be lol. The only thing that is throwing me off is your claim that after you caulked it the issue stopped. I say check the flashing because that is the least intrusive thing and can be put back. personally i'd take it off and down to the sheathing. if this was done on a new build and they didn't do that i'd be looking a few steps further then normal. I like building decks so the ledger board is spaced off the house with spacer blocks. keeps the rain and from collecting but still requires flashing.

 

[vekster]

I have no idea what 6 is supposed to be lol.

6 is the house wrap folded back down and taped at the edges

 

[Kaizen]

6 is the house wrap folded back down and taped at the edges

Ah thanks. Looked like origami.


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[GMoney1572]

The only thing that is throwing me off is your claim that after you caulked it the issue stopped.

Well, like I learned in Stats 101 back in the day - correlation does not equal causation. I've not observed any leaking up until this spring, which made me assume the caulk is failing. But perhaps the caulk is doing nothing and I just didn't notice the windows/door dripping other times. It takes a rain coming from the north to do it, since that wall faces north. So it's not an every rain occurrence.

Tonight's project is going to be to pop the vinyl off the top of the door and see what's underneath for flashing. It seems like a good thing to rule out before going deeper. My son has a baseball game, so I won't have a lot of time for much else tonight anyway.

Random thought - If I pull the siding, it gives me access to the foam board underneath. I could pull the foam board off (assuming it's nailed) and that should give me a view of the underside of the ledger. It might let me determine if there is actually flashing behind it. I'm not tackling that right now, just an idea I was kicking around.

 

[Kaizen]

I would. About a foot down. It will come off in pieces so you will have to replace after solved. Careful with the siding and keep them in order for reinstall


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[ctimrun]

About two years ago I went through almost this exact same scenario. I was in the process of finishing out our basement and did not want to hang the drywall until the water intrusion had been fixed. I couldn't get a deck guy to commit to a schedule to do the work so I tackled it myself with the help of my wife and a couple friends here and there for the heavy lifting. You have to get some flashing in there to take the water out and away from the house.

I went back to find pictures but could only find a couple I will put here for your viewing pleasure. It was a lot of work but I know it's done right and it has not leaked a drop since the fix.

The house was built in 2007, the year before code required a wrap be used under the siding, so I decided to strip it all down and put it all together the way it should have been in the first place, with the wrap, flashing, and also replacing the ledger board while I was in there too. Here is a pick of it all torn apart......



Going back together. I decided to take the wrap all the way up to the second story roof since this portion of the house takes the brunt of the weather. I also used the ice shield material in the repairs as well to help the water go away from the house instead of towards it.......



Getting there. You can see the new ledger board and the flashing along with the wrap. I also put the flashing on top like in the picture below....



Here is the detail I used to do my fix. I pretty much copied this exactly and like I said it has worked out great with no water intrusion at all since.....



My water issues have been handled and my basement finish out is completely done now. I hope this information is helpful for you.

 

[GMoney1572]

Ctimrun - Appreciate the pictures! Heading down that road is my worst fear.....but it's good to see someone tackle it and survive the process! Moral support, if nothing else.

Here's my update for the night. Pulled the siding off above the door. Discovered it had been flashed with some black tape. I hesitate to call it Vicor because it doesn't have the thickness or tar paper type feel. I'm not sure if it's just another spin on the self adhesive flashing, but it seems firmly stuck to the house wrap and door flanges. Pics attached.

I think tomorrow I may do some exploration up top. Looking at it tonight, it seems like if I can get some flashing on the top of the ledger with a proper drop edge.....it will stop a lot of the water running down the ledger. That would be a good first step.

 

[6768rogues]

That does not look like a ledger board to me, it looks like a header joist. When I read ledger board, I thought it was a board that was below the joists, with the joist ends on top of it. That would be easier to fix.
I would build a temporary wall of some type to hold up the deck. Then I would cut the joists back 1 1/2" and remove the header joist and brackets. Remove siding as necessary. Then you can properly flash the whole thing. Then put on a new header joist, double it up to take up the extra space created by cutting the joists short, and put on new brackets. Lots of bolts. A couple of days of work, tops.
If the attachment point on the house is rotten from water infiltration, you have a lot of work to do.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

I don't see any drip cap on that door.
6768rogues has good input.

 

[mizzoutrover]

I'm with 6768 I this, it looks like the header was connected directly to the framing then sheeting installed above and below which is making the problem worse.

That header needs to be pulled, you might be better off putting 3/4 plywood to make the surface flush with the sheeting then adding the header back, or doubling the header back as suggested. With joist hangers and by moving the header out I would try to pull the first few deck boards, cutting the joists back then rebuilding the sheeting, header, hangers etc. joist hangars should give you a little wiggle room

You might also want to check with your local building department on deck attachment requirements.

I just heard on a home improvement radio show that 33,000 people have been injured since 2003 in deck collapse accidents, I confirmed the numbers online. It is nothing to mess around with.

 

[GMoney1572]

I don't see any drip cap on that door.

There is not one. It's just the door. It would be relatively easy for me to add one, if that would be a wise move. It looks like it would go under the building paper?

That does not look like a ledger board to me, it looks like a header joist. When I read ledger board, I thought it was a board that was below the joists, with the joist ends on top of it. That would be easier to fix.

I may need some help understanding this. I thought a header joist was what the ends of my floor joists in the house would be nailed into. And the ledger is what was screwed to the rim or header joists for the deck attachment point.

Are you saying they didn't use a ledger board, just attached the deck to the header joist for the house? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding? What makes me question that is the presence of lag screws in what I'm calling the ledger board, plus the fact that board is not supported from the bottom. There is a 3/8 gap under it (which I caulked) and foam board under that.

You might also want to check with your local building department on deck attachment requirements.

I just heard on a home improvement radio show that 33,000 people have been injured since 2003 in deck collapse accidents, I confirmed the numbers online. It is nothing to mess around with.

I agree 100%. I'm very much in a scoping this out mode. I'm handy and can usually figure stuff out quickly, but I've never really messed with siding/ flashing/ and deck construction before. Certainly nothing of this size. So at some point I'm going to have to make a call on DIY vs. calling in the Pros.

I live in the country. Based in what I've seen in a house that went up by us, our local building department is pretty lax. The same guy that inspected that house inspected ours. I'll involve them, but I think their bar will be pretty low. I'm probably best off relying on best practices from online resources.

Also - I appreciate all the suggestions and help. Hopefully I'm not sounding too dazed and confused, but I'm learning as I go here. That goes for terminology, proper construction methods, etc...

 

[GMoney1572]

Well, quick update. I got a free night and was able to do a little poking around on the topside of the deck. The situation is identical up there. Apparently my whole house has 2" foam board on the exterior, which was a surprise. In the long run, that's a good thing I think.

It makes me wonder if whoever built the deck didn't realize the whole house was going to be sheathed in foam, or didn't care. I was told the builder and prior owner started out as best friends, and ended construction as enemies. This could be one of the reasons why.

I have some thinking to do. In the interim, I'm going to properly flash the tops of the patio door and windows in the basement that are leaking. They are missing the first layer of flashing membrane going from the flange to the foam. It may or may not help anything, but it's easy enough to do.

 

[6768rogues]

I don't see any drip cap on that door.
6768rogues has good input.

Thanks. I have other good ideas but I haven't thought of them yet!

 

[6768rogues]

Terminology as I have know it is:
Header joist is a joist at the end of a run of joists. It is fastened to the joists with fasteners through the header joist into the joists or using hangers fastened to the header joist to support the joists.
Ledger board is a board under the joists that supports the ends of the joists (joists are on top of the ledger board). Old methods put a small ledger board on and notched the ends of the joists so that the bottom of the joists and ledger board are even. That resulted in half the joist sitting on the ledger board. That is no longer used because in effect it reduces the joist to half of its nominal size.
In other parts of the country the words might be used to mean something else.

 

[6768rogues]

The forum said I could not post for 14 seconds so I waited and posted again. Then it posted the same message twice. Whatever.