Dedicated circuit for basement freezer, GFCI still needed?

[AntonLargiader]

I would think this has been hammered out a billion times but I can't find anything conclusive. I think the codes have changed recently on this and many things I read may be based on older codes. Virginia is on 2011 AFAIK.

In my unfiinished basement I am replacing a subpanel and a freezer is right next to it. I want to make a dedicated circuit for it for reliability. Can I make this non-GFCI?

Some recently-done work (2014) included a dedicated non-GFCI duplex receptacle for the NG furnace condensate pump. Was that legal?

And if such dedicated circuits still can be non-GFCI, is a duplex receptacle legal for them or does it need to be truly a single receptacle?

 

[ForceFed70]

I think you need GFCI protection. From my understanding in most of the US, code now basically says all outlets (dedicated or not) need to be GFCI protected at a minimum. Only lighting circuits or hardwired fixtures/appliances are exempt.

Wait for more responses. I'm Canadian and my understanding of US code isn't perfect.

 

[Gear Box]

If it is a single plug outlet marked freezer on breaker panel it shouldn't need gfi protection, inspector told me this on my garage heater and door openers in 2005

 

[mm08822]

If it is a single plug outlet marked freezer on breaker panel it shouldn't need gfi protection, inspector told me this on my garage heater and door openers in 2005

He is talking about basements in 2017 and referring to 2011 NEC or now possibly they caught up with 2014 NEC.

Both 2011/2014 NEC require gfci protection for all 15/20a 125v recepts in unfinished basements. The exception are gone.

The NG furnace condensate pump recept should be gfci protected.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Thanks. No more exceptions; that's OK with me. I like GFCI even if we got really tired of resetting the old receps that were in our house when we bought it. I want my kids to be safe.

I hung a GFCI off the bottom for the freezer (can see the trip light from the top of the stairs) and am starting the regular outlet circuit with a GFCI. The recep for the condensate pump is becoming part of the GFCI daisy chain so it'll be compliant. Actually I'm pretty much replacing it completely; it's in a blue plastic side-nailed new work box with a residential plastic cover. Looks like a hack; I'll replace it with a metal box and cover.

I went with a GFCI/AFCI breaker for my outside receptacle, figuring it would be more durable. It's also easier to reset as the recep is in a recessed box (like a window well) with the EVSE in it.

FWIW at Lowes I didn't see any GFCI-only Homeline breakers; they were all CAFI or GFCI/AFI. I will probably get a one of those for the circuit that runs upstairs to the bedrooms just to stay ahead of the code.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

AFCIs are snake oil.

 

[AntonLargiader]

AFCIs are snake oil.

Well, can't buy a GFCI locally without it. And I have seen flashes in switch boxes, and I have had bad connections shocking me in a different switch box, and I have lost a s**t-ton of stuff in a house fire so I am generally OK with the idea of arc fault protection. It'll get better, like GFCI seems to have.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

an AFCI wouldnt have protected u from getting shocked.

And there is no proof that AFCIs have prevented or will prevent house fires. Unlike GFCIs which can be tested to prove their claimed function, AFCIs have not been.

Its a case of the manu industry providing a solution to a non existent problem driven by profit.

Sorry about your lose. What was the cause?

 

[larry4406]

AFCIs are snake oil.

I agree.

In our new houses we build, 75% of the customers complain that their vacuums trip the AFCI. In their mind, clearly the builder is at fault. I take their vacuum room to room and trip AFCI's. We put in brand new non-AFCI breakers and vacuum runs fine. Put in brand new AFCI breakers and vacuum trips it. I tell them to have a nice day and call their legislators.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I agree.

In our new houses we build, 75% of the customers complain that their vacuums trip the AFCI. In their mind, clearly the builder is at fault. I take their vacuum room to room and trip AFCI's. We put in brand new non-AFCI breakers and vacuum runs fine. Put in brand new AFCI breakers and vacuum trips it. I tell them to have a nice day and call their legislators.

Need to call the NFPA. Legislators cant do squat about it.

 

[Wirepuller]

Arc faults are overpriced, useless components that cause me more wasted time than anything else I've come across. We need to get rid of them


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[Bert_]

Is it legal, NO.
Can you do it, Sure, I would too. I'd just make it a single recpt. minimal safety risk and you don't have to worry about you freezer thawing out.

 

[AntonLargiader]

an AFCI wouldnt have protected u from getting shocked.

It could have detected the loose wire before it got to that point. Wire (old cloth-wrapped wiring) backed out and touched the metal cover plate. GFCI alone should have worked, too, but no one talks about GFCI for that sort of circuit.

But it's a moot point. Combo breakers are roughly the same cost as GFCI-only (which are not available in plug-on neutral) so unless there's a specific reason to avoid the CAFI functionality, then it's just there for free.

I think the house fire started in an upstairs closet. Rented house. I know there was some dodgy wiring there but 30 years ago I didn't have nearly the awareness about electricity that I have now. If it was an open or loose arcing connection, I think that is a textbook case of series arcing which is what CAFI is supposed to catch. Loose connections cause heat; that is a known fact.

 

[Mickey O]

Is it legal, NO.
Can you do it, Sure, I would too. I'd just make it a single recpt. minimal safety risk and you don't have to worry about you freezer thawing out.

Absolutely, I would never again put a freezer on a GFCI.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Obviously anyone can do anything they want when there's no inspection. In my case there is. I'll put a brand-new GFCI there (I installed an older one over the weekend) and if it trips I will likely replace with TR non-GFCI. There isn't much food in there and the trip light is easy to see.

 

[Mickey O]

Obviously anyone can do anything they want when there's no inspection. In my case there is. I'll put a brand-new GFCI there (I installed an older one over the weekend) and if it trips I will likely replace with TR non-GFCI. There isn't much food in there and the trip light is easy to see.

You better hope it doesn't trip when you have it full of restaurant quality steaks and your out of town for a week. Nothing like losing a grand worth of delicious steaks and having the house smell like rotting corpses.

 

[Orionrising]

Need to call the NFPA. Legislators cant do squat about it.

Sure they can. They can write exemptions in the state adoption of the building code for whatever they want.

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[Marctrees]

I'm a firm believer in the benefits of GFCI's AND the NEC code.

But, I would NEVER put a freezer on a GFC.

Would have to be stupid or insane. Marc

 

[jeb42]

I lost most of a deer and a lot of fish fillets when we lost electricity and the GFI tripped.

 

[larry4406]

I'm a firm believer in the benefits of GFCI's AND the NEC code.

But, I would NEVER put a freezer on a GFC.

Would have to be stupid or insane. Marc

Kind of like putting a sump pump outlet on a gfi? That's required now as well.

 

[Marctrees]

"Kind of like putting a sump pump outlet on a gfi? That's required now as well."

OMG, changing that out soon as Inspector leaves.

So, put on a single receptacle, not a duplex, to discourage "pump room" wet cold damp area to be used by other tools.

And again, I respect and endorse NEC, has saved many a lives and propertys.

But, like all baskets of laws, a few in there are just plain impractical and over the top. Marc

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sure they can. They can write exemptions in the state adoption of the building code for whatever they want.

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Interesting. I never heard of that. I thought it was a state agency that did so and according to my google search, in california at least, it is.

http://www.bsc.ca.gov/Rulemaking/CaliforniaBuildingStandardsAdoptionProcess.aspx

The thing is, i wouldnt trust politicians to administer building code. They cant even manage their normal duties. God knows what they would do with building code.

I'm a firm believer in the benefits of GFCI's AND the NEC code.

But, I would NEVER put a freezer on a GFC.

Would have to be stupid or insane. Marc

Agreed.

Kind of like putting a sump pump outlet on a gfi? That's required now as well.

Yup. The thing is u could hardwire it to get around the GFCI requirement.

It really makes no sense to require a GFCI for a sump pump when theres near zero chance of a human getting in the middle of the circuit when theres a fault. Most sump pumps have double insulation

"Kind of like putting a sump pump outlet on a gfi? That's required now as well."

OMG, changing that out soon as Inspector leaves.

So, put on a single receptacle, not a duplex, to discourage "pump room" wet cold damp area to be used by other tools.

And again, I respect and endorse NEC, has saved many a lives and propertys.

But, like all baskets of laws, a few in there are just plain impractical and over the top. Marc

Though someone could unplug the pump to use the outlet. Or just hardwired it.

Yes, AFCIs come to mind.

 

[Marctrees]

So ya, like a GFCI ckt for a sump pump, would probably statistically MAYBE save one person, OK, MAYBE a few / year from death across entire 50 state USA, (Or whoever uses the NEC ) in an entire Calendar |Year, but in meantime allow million'sssss, maybe 100's of millions $ of property damage.

I mean, it is a good idea, but ONLY if the property owner goes to check for function a few times/ day.

Kinda like getting up and oiling ALL your hinges and wiping down all your tools everywhere every Saturday morning.

Not generally gonna happen.

Human nature precludes that happening.

Annual death toll of people in US car accidents - 30, 000 +.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Outlaw cars is the answer.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm , that has not happened.

No "Code" against driving a car.

Hmmmmmm, interesting.

Kinda like sayin - "Don't fly commercial airlines for your travel, tooooo dangerous"

Just plain no regard for logic in some thinking, some of which ends up making laws that we , the "Sheeple" , "Need" to comply with.

My Father, that was a very serious Ukrainian Electrical Engineer, that fled Communism killing to the US in early 50's, always taught me - " LEARN, educate yourself, and use YOUR brain to decide everything.
Pay NO attention to the Crowd and what THEY do or SAY."

He went on to be a Foreman of a crew of twenty at City of MPLS Traffic Signals, even w his VERY broken english, for years.

Not sure how I got to this subject in this thread, but I did , "whatever".

I hate that word usage !!!

Marc

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Or how about- its the guns fault that the thug shot the innocent person.

 

[bigredmf]

Gfci do not belong on outlets used for refrigerators, freezers or any other dedicated inductive load unless you are prepared for nuisance trips

Red


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[Marctrees]

Wylie - WTF!!!!!

Everyone knows "Guns are badddd, MMKay??"

Listen, funny stuff, so after married 27 yrs , and gone to hell, and back, I meeet a Fantastic in every manner TX Valley (by Mexico) born and raised Lady, sitting on couch, right now next to me.

So she sees, I "Own Guns"

And, w her background, she figures I am ready and planning to go stick up the local 7-11 any day now.

Been 8 yrs now, she finally understands what they are for.

Pretty much anyway.

Marc

 

[American Locomotive]

Gfci do not belong on outlets used for refrigerators, freezers or any other dedicated inductive load unless you are prepared for nuisance trips

Red


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Huh?

My fridge has been on a GFCI outlet for the past 25 years, never had an issue. The GFCI outlet in my basement regularly has a 1HP air compressor plugged into it - never had it trip.

 

[Showkey]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^It's always good until one day it's not.

 

[bigredmf]

National Electrical Code 2014

Chapter 2 Wiring and Protection

Article 210 Branch Circuits

I. General Provisions

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.

(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (10) shall have ground-fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel.

(6) Kitchens— where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces.


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[bigredmf]

http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/53252/why-is-gfci-tripping-on-refrigerator-circuit


The above link details why but feel free to do as you please.

My garage fridge trips the gfi a couple of times a year but we notice before it's a issue.

Red