deeply notched ceiling joists

[byoung0041]

Looking at buying a house that has some issues in the Garage. The garage probably had manual swing open garage originally, and then they had motorized overhead garage doors installed later. Due to the low height of the ceiling joists from the floor they cut long notches in them to allow clearance of the door when it was opened.

The garage has 22 joists total, and I think about 15 of them have been notched. They must have been notched quite some time ago and the roof still looks fine, but it is still something I want to at least have a plan to fix before buying the house. We had a contractor come and take a look. He recommended adding sister 12 foot long 2x4 sister joists along side the existing joists, with the bottom above the notch they don't interfere with the door clearance. I don't think 2x4 will be enough to get back to the original strength of the 2x6.

Another option was adding a steel I beam across under the joists and installing three jack posts in the garage.

We are having a different contractor come out next week. I Would love to hear any other ideas people have.

 

[kd3pc]

Looks like good construction and from the looks of the wood, fairly old, but sturdy. It appears that a good 3" of wood is left of the rafter.

are the ends tied in to the top plate?

Given construction was often overbuilt, back then. I would not be too worried about it. If you call out a contractor, they are going to sell their services, you might better be served by an engineer.

 

[byoung0041]

house was built early 1950s.

The ends of the joists are tied to the front and rear walls of the garage. The joists and rafters are set every 15.5 inches.

a few of the notches have overcuts that cut further into the remaining joist.

edit:
House is in Minnesota. Will have to deal with weight of snow on the roof.

 

[rburke65]

I think I'm going to agree with Radrush...... That's a lot of lumber that has been removed. I don't have a plan for you but someone on here will.

 

[ForceFed70]

You may be able to sister with 2x6's if you are worried about it.

If it's been over a decade since the notching was done and there are no visible consequences yet - I'd be more than happy with a sistered 2x4 or 2x6 as a repair option. Should be a fairly cheap and easy repair from what I can see.

 

[deter]

good god settle down! haha, its been that way for quite some time... 20 years at least by the looks of it. The only thing those joists are doing is holding up the doors, and keeping the walls from spreading apart. Don't put anything in the "attic" (DUH). Sistering 2x4s to the existing is plenty adequate. You don't want a bunch of stupid jackposts in your way!

 

[Barlow L]

if there was a problem caused by the ceiling joist being cut, the walls would be bowed out and a noticeable sag in the ridge of the roof line.

If I bought the house. I would sister in 2x4's just because and not put anything on that side.

The ONLY reason for I beams and poles is if you plan to swing engines on them joist.

 

[Zeke]

Yep, sister joists will do the trick. What are your future plans for the ceiling? You need to take into account any additional weight that you intend such as storage or a finished ceiling.

It really is not a big job to sister those. You don't have to take the new joists all the way over the plate. With a nail gun it's an hour job. You could even put a little lift on the existing, crown your new joists and nail away. Using construction adhesive at the lap would make for a really bitchin' job.

And a real clean way to do it would be to lay the new joists on top of the existing. Extended past the notch by a few feet, 2 x 4's would be fine.

 

[srmofo]

I would also use some construction adhesive between the sandwich, thats where youll gain your strength.

 

[volleyball]

Those aren't joists. They are ties and if the remaining wood is secure, and since its been that way for a long time, it will hold. Sister if you wish, don't put weight up there. If you want to use it for storage, sister with 2 x 10's

 

[Architorture]

if they needed 6" of depth they probably only needed it at the center. Forces don't travel through structural members along rectangular edges they travel through curves.

chances are it will be perfectly fine especially with the tight spacing.

 

[SH7mi]

Another option;
Add a 2 x 8 (min) above the existing joist attached to rafters spanning front to back. Then remove all existing joists. This will give you plenty of ceiling height and keep structural integrity of roof.

 

[BFHtime]

I have used trusses constructed from 2 x 4 on much longer spans. If you want to use the above space for storage then you may want to consider increasing strength. It does not look like it would be worth it.

If you were going to use steel you would not need the the jacks in the middle of the span, just put the beam on well built jacks with studs or steel vertically. This would cost more than it is worth in this situation.

Check to see if the wood is split, look for knots, especially dry ones that you can push out with your finger. Look for splits where the cut goes from thin to wide along the span. Make it is not too dry or rotted.

Putting some sheathing to hold the weight of the door in the hanging position, could spread the weight. Use subfloor glue and screws not drywall screws.

The length of the span of the joist needs to be considered.

Sistering them would be the best way to strengthen them without it turning into a project. I was goin to say to consult a professional, but you did. You can always get another opinion.

Good luck.

 

[rice rocket]

Ha.

Not to hijack, but this is what mine looks like:

At least yours joists are one piece!!! Notched where the point load from the apex of the roof meets the joists, and the column isn't even on a joist, it's on a board spanned over 2 joists.

This is over a 25x25 block garage (detached).

I cleaned snow off of it when it reached about a foot because I was scared, but given the construction and age of the block (according to home inspector), this garage was built in the 50s and the roof looks like from that era as well (although that notch for the romex has got to be newer). Not sure what my game plan is.

 

[WNYflyer]

Those aren't joists. They are ties and if the remaining wood is secure, and since its been that way for a long time, it will hold. Sister if you wish, don't put weight up there. If you want to use it for storage, sister with 2 x 10's

^^^ This

Looks like you have a ridge board/rafter system roof. The joists are essentially only there to act as tension ties to keep the roof rafters from pushing out the tops of the walls and to brace to top of the wall.

Since they are really only for tension the notching is not as detrimental as it would be if the joist were acting as beams to carry attic loading. So that being said don't store anything up there that would force the joist to act as beams also unless you do proper reinforcing.

If so inclined I would put a 2x on top laying on its side to reinforce the joist. You would essentially end up with a T shape. You could also sister the joist with 2x material or perhaps nail/screw steel gauge material on either side to reinforce. I would also pay particular attention to the notch towards the front of the garage where the rafter comes down onto the plate.

Jack posts and a steel beam would certainly work but way overkill with much easier and cheaper ways to deal with the problem as noted above and by others.

 

[byoung0041]

There is some bowing, and some cracking along the grain where the notches were cut. I met with an engineer this morning. He recommended 10 ft 2x6 sisters to be installed with vertical ties to the roof rafters. Probably over doing the fix but it's not too expensive and I will get some concessions from the seller.

 

[Zeke]

Joints, ties, it's all nomenclature. If they are at plate height they can be called joists especially if they are run at regular centers. I have seen many ties on a full hip criss cross the structure. Those I would always call ties even at plate height because they can't be used for anything else. And anything on say like 4 foot centers would be a tie because there is no practical way to use them as a joist.

I think we spend too much time here splitting hairs. The POINT of the thread was not too argue but to establish ways to strengthen what was lost by the notching and to guide the OP into selecting a contractor that is not selling ********.

 

[kbs2244]

It is 60 years old. in MN. without problems, and you are worried about it failing?
Those joists are under tension and if the ends are attached well are up to their job.

Actually the door tracks are aiding them a bit.
The back end suppprts are the weak point for this.
You could use some strap to carry the tension back more.

But, after 60 years, I think you would be fixing a non-problem.

 

[SARG]

My father built a garage about 40 years ago and made the slight miscalculation just as shown by the OP ......... Poppa cut out the clearance he needed for the doors and it has been that way every since.

 

[volleyball]

Joints, ties, it's all nomenclature. If they are at plate height they can be called joists especially if they are run at regular centers. I have seen many ties on a full hip criss cross the structure. Those I would always call ties even at plate height because they can't be used for anything else. And anything on say like 4 foot centers would be a tie because there is no practical way to use them as a joist.

I think we spend too much time here splitting hairs. The POINT of the thread was not too argue but to establish ways to strengthen what was lost by the notching and to guide the OP into selecting a contractor that is not selling ********.

It is far from nomenclature in this instance. Calling them the wrong thing is what leads to the worry. for their intended purpose, they are fine. They are not fine if you change that purpose.
In a casual setting, let your grandma call them big toothpicks, but when asking for internet advice, we need to be on the same page.