Garage Josh
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matt_i
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Some questions about your foundation before we begin.
Is this just a floating slab, thickened edge, trench foooter, or a standard pad-footer with stem wall? Is the stem wall going to go above the slab or are you going to frame right on top of the flat plane of the pad?
Around here, a cheap and decent way to proceed is to rent a trencher, it can be 8-12" wide, trench to the depth of the frostline at the perimeter of the slab. Then form the slab, remove center topsoil and compact rock, set reinforcement, and then a monolithic pour all at once. Essentially the ground (sides of the trench) is the form for the stem walls.
An important upcoming question is how the concrete truck will access the site and can their trough reach all of the places you need to place concrete. Things like septic tanks and existing driveways can be easily destroyed by the massive weight of a concrete truck.
I don't own a bobcat but I do own a tractor with bucket. Where I used it was to haul off the cut sod, then it sat around as I dug with an mini excavator. I didn't use the tractor again until the footer and stem walls were poured. I used it for backfilling dirt. Then I used it to distribute rock inside the stem walls. So there was a big time gap in when I needed to use it. You might use it to remove sod and remove dirt for a stone base...they can generally make a mess of any sodded areas as soon as you start turning. But powerful and fast, easy to see what you are doing.
Is this just a floating slab, thickened edge, trench foooter, or a standard pad-footer with stem wall? Is the stem wall going to go above the slab or are you going to frame right on top of the flat plane of the pad?
Around here, a cheap and decent way to proceed is to rent a trencher, it can be 8-12" wide, trench to the depth of the frostline at the perimeter of the slab. Then form the slab, remove center topsoil and compact rock, set reinforcement, and then a monolithic pour all at once. Essentially the ground (sides of the trench) is the form for the stem walls.
An important upcoming question is how the concrete truck will access the site and can their trough reach all of the places you need to place concrete. Things like septic tanks and existing driveways can be easily destroyed by the massive weight of a concrete truck.
I don't own a bobcat but I do own a tractor with bucket. Where I used it was to haul off the cut sod, then it sat around as I dug with an mini excavator. I didn't use the tractor again until the footer and stem walls were poured. I used it for backfilling dirt. Then I used it to distribute rock inside the stem walls. So there was a big time gap in when I needed to use it. You might use it to remove sod and remove dirt for a stone base...they can generally make a mess of any sodded areas as soon as you start turning. But powerful and fast, easy to see what you are doing.
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jives
Well-known member
If you have no idea even how deep to dig you need to stop, listen, and learn -- and then consider hiring an expert. Not trying to be critical, but there is much to learn here.
We cannot even begin to provide advice without knowing the type of building, codes, and so forth. Pole barn? Framed with frost (stem) wall and footer? Frost protected monolithic slab? Soil conditions? Frost depth?
One thing though. . . Gravel good, sand bad.
We cannot even begin to provide advice without knowing the type of building, codes, and so forth. Pole barn? Framed with frost (stem) wall and footer? Frost protected monolithic slab? Soil conditions? Frost depth?
One thing though. . . Gravel good, sand bad.
coldh2o
Well-known member
Sounds like you asked contractors to quote before you have a set of plans, or even a reasonably firm idea of what you're doing. No wonder you got such a range of prices. First thing you need is drawings, or you'll never get an accurate quote.
Cyberbear
Well-known member
If you have no experience preparing a site for a concrete slab and foundation, I strongly suggest having it done by experts, and not use your project as an OJT experience.
The foundation and site prep is the most important phase of your build. Everything else can be done by yourself, after the foundation has been properly completed, just remember to use good quality concrete, lots of steel reinforcement (rebar, not mesh) and cure the concrete properly. There is tons of info about all of this on the Net, perform your due diligence and have it done right the first time. A bad foundation job never gets better, only worse as time passes.
The foundation and site prep is the most important phase of your build. Everything else can be done by yourself, after the foundation has been properly completed, just remember to use good quality concrete, lots of steel reinforcement (rebar, not mesh) and cure the concrete properly. There is tons of info about all of this on the Net, perform your due diligence and have it done right the first time. A bad foundation job never gets better, only worse as time passes.
wssix99
Well-known member
+1 The planning stages are not when you start digging.
BTW - Are you upstate or downstate. If upstate, you won't be able to do much with a bobcat until April. (Maybe march if this weather keeps up.)
Doing the excavation yourself probably wont save you too much. Most companies I have worked with would still charge the same because they know that they would have to clean things up, anyway. Depending on how much excavation you have, a trained operator and a piece of owned equipment may do the job for less money than a longer term do-it-yourself rental. The really bad thing that can happen is digging too much. If you dig too deep, you need to pay for more fill, which gets really expensive. With a fixed price deal - that isn't your problem, but if you are the one digging the hole, it will definitely fall back on you.
pmiranda
Well-known member
If a small shed full of garden tools sank or the floor cracked I wouldn't care, but IMO that building is big enough and expensive enough that I'd pay somebody to design the foundation based on a soil report. Even if your locality doesn't required stamped foundation drawings it's a good idea and your insurance company might get pissy if you don't have them.
If you hire an excavator they might have somebody on staff to do your foundation design.
If you hire an excavator they might have somebody on staff to do your foundation design.
rburke65
Well-known member
For starters, forget the sand. It will only act as a sponge and **** up water n moister. Have you ever got DRY sand at a supply yard. NO....NEVER. Make your build site high to prevent water intrusion. Higher than you think. Shoot grade. Insulate both sides of the foundation and under ther the floor. You can't do this afterwards. 30' is pretty shallow and in my opinion, the 50' width is going to be REAL tight to get a paint shop and 3 cars parked inside. Keep asking questions. And if you asked for a bid on a given set of plans for the site prep then you can compare prices....but only if all the contractors are looking at the same contract. You have to know what you want before you sign anything with anyone. Spell out EVERYTHING. Good luck.
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02HD9294
New member
In our region, only garages less than 600 sq. ft. can be built on a floating slab. Anything larger requires traditional foundation walls with a footing at least 4 feet below grade and the floor poured independently. For 30X50 you may want to consider a pole barn design.
OP
Garage Josh
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matt_i
Well-known member
The stem wall is not required, but makes for a nicer building down the road. Depending on the site and how high the slab would sit from the grade, it keeps snow, rain, and other forms of water from interacting with the wood in the wall. It could be a cast concrete feature or a row of blocks.
No matter how you choose, a lot more planning is going to be involved, down to laying out specific anchor bolt plans. My local area requires 2 in each plate, not greater than 12" from each end. Not that big of a deal for a flat wall, but more serious when you have a small wall space between a garage and a man door, to clear all of the jack studs, which then leads you into framing design. If you set L-shaped anchor bolts they run around $1 each. However if you put that choice off and set epoxied studs in the field, they run into $5-6 each (materials only here). What I'm trying to drive at with this example is every choice is interlinked to something else, and planning ahead can save you money.
If you are going to do any of your own dirt work, I would highly recommend buying or renting a rotary laser level. This is the tool that you need to keep from making a big mess, overdigging, having to fill back with expensive materials like concrete or crushed stone, etc. Again, you need plans and have a reference like a master grade pin (deep stake) or another piece of concrete that you set as a "zero" and reference all measurements and the "offset" of the laser level plane from it.
No matter how you choose, a lot more planning is going to be involved, down to laying out specific anchor bolt plans. My local area requires 2 in each plate, not greater than 12" from each end. Not that big of a deal for a flat wall, but more serious when you have a small wall space between a garage and a man door, to clear all of the jack studs, which then leads you into framing design. If you set L-shaped anchor bolts they run around $1 each. However if you put that choice off and set epoxied studs in the field, they run into $5-6 each (materials only here). What I'm trying to drive at with this example is every choice is interlinked to something else, and planning ahead can save you money.
If you are going to do any of your own dirt work, I would highly recommend buying or renting a rotary laser level. This is the tool that you need to keep from making a big mess, overdigging, having to fill back with expensive materials like concrete or crushed stone, etc. Again, you need plans and have a reference like a master grade pin (deep stake) or another piece of concrete that you set as a "zero" and reference all measurements and the "offset" of the laser level plane from it.
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ez-duzit
Well-known member
This. Engineering and drawings first.
finn
Well-known member
Stem wall was required when I built. My other building is older and the was built without a stem wall.
Unfortunately!
ford33
Well-known member
You need a set of plans. You are heading down a road of misery without them. Asking the contractors to quote what they think is best is not the right way to approach this project. I highly recommend you research and develop specifications, create drawings and bill of material and a budget. Then contact contractors for bids.
bcoke
Well-known member
You have received good advise from our experienced members.......now my 2cents....you sound unsure of what you want ...not the garage but write down a list......start with your wish list [you hit the lotto anything goes].....now do you plan heat/ac....water...phone...cable tv, internet, lifts, bathroom ? all theses thing must be addressed before designing foundation. When you have your list of wants prioritize it what you want now,in the near furture and maybe never or way,way down the road...! This will save you headaches and money, all utilities have to be planned before the slab goes in.....If you are thinking of heat/ac than you need an isulation under the slab [it is good for non heated shops too] the utilities must be in place in the slab at least to the outside than can stay burried of future use conduit can be installed and capped awaiting the next lotto hit {like electric for lifts] than get all this info in a plan.......a 3d architek computer design software can be bought cheep [ I paid 30$ for mine and used it over 12 tears to design house/workshop than barn/garage than the big house] the plans and material list features will be enough for a builder to give you accurate estimates........again forsite will save the bucks down the road......will you think of everything ,of course not but you will have thought long and hard and have multiple revisions to look at and make a wise decision ......good luck Bobbycoke
OP
Garage Josh
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ez-duzit
Well-known member
Admitting you have no knowledge of the process is really an excellent start. You need an architect to create a set of plans and do the engineering before you go around wasting the time of a bunch of contractors.
bczygan
Well-known member
The less you know, the more you have to pay those that do know.
The less you know how to do, the more you have to pay other to do what you can't.
This site is a really good place to start learning, so you'll know more and pay less, or at least get what you want.
First step is to read extensively to get terminology and possible choices. Then start asking specific questions.
Bill
The less you know how to do, the more you have to pay other to do what you can't.
This site is a really good place to start learning, so you'll know more and pay less, or at least get what you want.
First step is to read extensively to get terminology and possible choices. Then start asking specific questions.
Bill
ford33
Well-known member
Your approach to this project is poorly conceived and is headed for disappointment. You need to take responsibility for this building and design. If you are uncertain or unwilling to learn some basic construction knowledge, hire a garage company out of a Google search or hire a local architect to design some basic plans or buy a set of plans you like and take it to an architect for modification.
Another alternative is to go to the local government building department and ask for the summary sheet of local codes for small structures, foundations, plumbing and electrical. You can then determine what is acceptable in your area. Also, contact the lift manufacturers and determine what concrete specifications are needed for the lift you plan to purchase. Six inches of concrete may be too much. Why spend the money if it is not needed.
Letting contractors design you garage is just asking for trouble. You are going to be the general contractor anyways so ask questions and learn.
Another alternative is to go to the local government building department and ask for the summary sheet of local codes for small structures, foundations, plumbing and electrical. You can then determine what is acceptable in your area. Also, contact the lift manufacturers and determine what concrete specifications are needed for the lift you plan to purchase. Six inches of concrete may be too much. Why spend the money if it is not needed.
Letting contractors design you garage is just asking for trouble. You are going to be the general contractor anyways so ask questions and learn.
hemifalcon
Well-known member
Garage Josh,
Something tells me you're getting frustrated with the responses here... I'll tell you from the point of someone previously in the same boat as you, that you have some homework to do.. Unless you have an endless supply of money--(which still really won't help as you'll be railroaded by every contractor available for your project)--you need to get friendly with the zoning official. Regardless of whether you have any size restrictions, you'll still need a permit I'm assuming which dictates to your city, village, or town what you're planning to build. Then-you'll need drawings whether you seek out a regular framed structure to be built or a pole barn. Also--if you're just going to hire out everything then just get out your checkbook..
Due to building restrictions where I'm at in SE Wisconsin I was limited to a 1500sq foot building. I went through a process of going to board meetings and getting acquainted with the local zoning officials and exercising some options. It took over a year of waiting but the village actually modified their ordinances for me while ultimately led to a revision which would help many people in the same "boat" as me, so to say. They allowed now after the waiting process a 3000 sq foot building based on the size of my lot (not ag here). So--I decided to get as close to that as possible and after deciding on a plan provided that information to the village and paid the ridiculous "paper" fees, aka permit fees. Once that was done I was finally able to get serious with some of the local pole builders in my area for designs and quotes for building costs. Also--I needed to find someone to grade the area as it was out of the limits required by the builder. This is something that I am not prepared to do as I've never operated a bobcat, backhoe, trackloader or any other heavy equipment and I'm not using this as my "learning" experience as others recommended above. It'd be one thing if I was building a shed and wanted to try my skills at this, but I'm just not interested in it. Unfortunately, the concrete and grading is the most ridiculous cost of the project nowadays. From the cost of equipment, cost of various labor performed by concrete firms and also their costs, the costs to the consumer are pretty great. Its just something we have to eat as we pursue our projects.
Remember as everything else in life---you can go full-steam into any situation, however the planning and foundation laid prior to the critical work need to be the best executed if you want a finished project that stands the test of time.
Something tells me you're getting frustrated with the responses here... I'll tell you from the point of someone previously in the same boat as you, that you have some homework to do.. Unless you have an endless supply of money--(which still really won't help as you'll be railroaded by every contractor available for your project)--you need to get friendly with the zoning official. Regardless of whether you have any size restrictions, you'll still need a permit I'm assuming which dictates to your city, village, or town what you're planning to build. Then-you'll need drawings whether you seek out a regular framed structure to be built or a pole barn. Also--if you're just going to hire out everything then just get out your checkbook..
Due to building restrictions where I'm at in SE Wisconsin I was limited to a 1500sq foot building. I went through a process of going to board meetings and getting acquainted with the local zoning officials and exercising some options. It took over a year of waiting but the village actually modified their ordinances for me while ultimately led to a revision which would help many people in the same "boat" as me, so to say. They allowed now after the waiting process a 3000 sq foot building based on the size of my lot (not ag here). So--I decided to get as close to that as possible and after deciding on a plan provided that information to the village and paid the ridiculous "paper" fees, aka permit fees. Once that was done I was finally able to get serious with some of the local pole builders in my area for designs and quotes for building costs. Also--I needed to find someone to grade the area as it was out of the limits required by the builder. This is something that I am not prepared to do as I've never operated a bobcat, backhoe, trackloader or any other heavy equipment and I'm not using this as my "learning" experience as others recommended above. It'd be one thing if I was building a shed and wanted to try my skills at this, but I'm just not interested in it. Unfortunately, the concrete and grading is the most ridiculous cost of the project nowadays. From the cost of equipment, cost of various labor performed by concrete firms and also their costs, the costs to the consumer are pretty great. Its just something we have to eat as we pursue our projects.
Remember as everything else in life---you can go full-steam into any situation, however the planning and foundation laid prior to the critical work need to be the best executed if you want a finished project that stands the test of time.
DonPowers
Well-known member
My 2 cents on site prep.
The two most important things to consider before designing a foundation are soil type and drainage. What is the soil type where you plan to build; Gravel, sand, organic, clay, ledge. Each type requires a different strategy as the load bearing for each is different. Proper drainage is essential to preserving the integrity of soil that your building sits on. You need to know where the water is coming from and where it needs to go.
The two most important things to consider before designing a foundation are soil type and drainage. What is the soil type where you plan to build; Gravel, sand, organic, clay, ledge. Each type requires a different strategy as the load bearing for each is different. Proper drainage is essential to preserving the integrity of soil that your building sits on. You need to know where the water is coming from and where it needs to go.
wssix99
Well-known member
No. If you have a building already in place, with foundations, etc.; that's one thing. But if you are building a new structure, that's an entirely different ballgame. Building an entirely new structure from scratch is not something for the do-it-yourself crowd and requires a good number of highly skilled trades to pull off. (Your building will require a foundation and not just a slab. That alone requires very specific excavation, surveying, and masonry skills if you want a straigh and square building.)
Buildings are built differently, depending on your location. (They need to deal with different soil/foundation, wind, snow, earthquake, temperature, etc. conditions.) If one were to design a building that could structurally be built anywhere, it would be so expensive - no one could afford it. Even within a single county, construction methods/requirements may vary greatly. This is why each structure is essentially custom designed. Unless you find a cookie-cutter structure that someone in your area has built and already has the plans for (that your municipality will approve for your land, also) then you will have to start from scratch. (This means putting down a good bit of money on the table first - before you do any digging.)
^ That being said... what are you really after? Do you really want a heated/sealed, true building, or would a metal building or pole barn suffice for your needs? For those later types of structures, the amount of design/engineering you would have to do upfront is less complex/costly, but the end product is a bit different.
Assuming you want a true building and not a barn or pre-fab structure/shed: (Hopefully this will help you make sense of the responses here and connect the dots. They are consistent with each other but call out some different terms.)
When building a new building, you typically have two key players: The "Architect" and the "General Contractor." The Architect leads the design and engineering and the General Contractor leads the building. ... Then things get a little more complicated...
In any building, one of the two key players needs to be the lead and the controlling party. For most of what we talk about on this site, (like houses and garages) the General Contractor is the appropriate lead. (If you were to build a skyscraper or a government building, you may have the Architect as the lead.)
I think it's safe to say most folks on this site "act" as their own General Contractor (another party may be listed on permits/contracts as the "General," but that's a different topic) and then hire other Contractors/Subcontractors to do the actual work. These members act as the intermediary between the Architect and the trades/builders. The catch is that doing this requires a good bit of general knowledge about building.
In your situation, it sounds like you don't have the background to act as your own General Contractor. So... you'd want to find a General Contractor who can act as your manager for the whole process. They would find/engage the architect for you, deal with any permits you need to get, and find all the skilled trades that need to be involved to get the job done. (I would guess that the people you have been talking to are skilled trades and not "General Contractors," so it's not surprising that you'd get responses all over the place. They need more specifics/details and more direction.)
^ Hiring a General Contractor is going to require you to put a good bit of money down on the table first. The General Contractor will need to do a lot of office/desk work before any digging happens and they will likely require that money up front. The Architect that they will hire will also require the same.
It is probably unlikely that you will find a reputable General Contractor who will lead this process for you and allow you to pop in and do bits of the key work, like digging the slab/foundations. In the end, doing so will add more time to the schedule, which will add more expense to you in the end. It will be far less expensive for you to have other people do all that work.
If you want to do some of the work yourself, the best way to work it would be to have the General Contractor come in and build the "bones" of the building for you. (Once they are done and gone, you can do the driveway, landscaping, interior walls, machinery, etc.) Unless you are acting as your own "General Contractor," there's really no good economical way for you go get involved in the core construction activities.
wssix99
Well-known member
In your area, you'll need a proper foundation if you are going to build a stick-built building. So, if you put down a pad first and then come back later to do a building, you'll have to completely destroy the pad in order to do the foundations. (All of that initial work will be lost.)
You could build the foundations now and then put the pad within them, so you can just put the building on top of the foundations later and not disturb the pad, but that will require a large up-front investment. You are looking at a pretty big garage, so to get your General Contractor, Draw up plans, dig/build the foundation, and pour the slab, you could be looking at $20-50K to get you to that point. (Depending on your site conditions and how fancy you want to get with the final building.)
bcoke
Well-known member
GarageJosh I think I understand what you are loking for.......what will give you more success will be a Design/Builder , a contractor listed as such ......they are much more in the design field than just a contractor.........Think architek for design and a builder who will build from plans etc.. no design work.......merged together......I feel they will give you more answers to your question and start you on the right path....check out their previous work and get referrals.......yes this all costs $$$ but will pay of itself in the long run [better product, satisfaction,and time no costly mistakes ........IMHO Bobbycoke
rburke65
Well-known member
As said, your local building/permit department will be able to give you a list of minimum requirements in a pole or stick build garage/shop. They will tell you about footer and foundation requirements and the like. I planned and read for years before a permit was pulled or a shovel in the ground. This forum here will give you lots of info and wisdom. Talk to peopl, ask questions, look at other garages. My opinion, if you are going to finish the inside, ya may as well stick build it. You will have to plan on electrical needs and wants, will you have water in the shop? Drains? Hot water? Heat and then what kind? Radiant....in floor....then that will have to be figured in BEFORE the floor is placed. And the insulation must be considered BEFORE the floor is placed. Lighting. Door size. The placement of the building itself on the lot, closeness to your house might be taken into consideration. North South orientation from the winds, drainage from the rains....build it high....not a good idea to end up with water in you garage. You should take these numerous thoughts, coming from 20 different directions, all marching towards one final goal, and hopefully not over look anything. We are here to help you. Good luck.
ez-duzit
Well-known member
His local architect will already have this information and he can save years of reading.
rburke65
Well-known member
ez-duzit ..... His architect won't determine the number of Windows, the pitch of the roof, pick materials, size of doors, thecolor of siding, etc.
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ez-duzit
Well-known member
Sure he will. Then the OP can approve or change it.
rburke65
Well-known member
Why would not the owner pick it out in the first place and save the architect from guess the the owner desires and wishes for the next 8 years?
ez-duzit
Well-known member
The architect doesn't need to guess. In his very first meeting with this client he would establish all these guidelines. But at least he would know immediately what can be done and what can't.
This is precisely what architects do.
rburke65
Well-known member
Ok, if you say so.
I can weigh in with a bit of help here. I have years of experience with concrete. and construction. If you have never poured concrete, don't do this! Period! I say that because ill prepared neophytes pouring concrete get huge bills for concrete jack hammering/removal. and buying concrete truck tanks, for trucks that held mix too long.
If you have poured concrtete than you know certain constants, and I will not bore you. You can do this project in pieces, and do what you are capable of, and let pros do their part. Design is the first step, and YOU must do this part. Draw, use computer aids, get books, on plans for garages, concrete projects, and sidewalk projects. Go to the library and research building codes, concrete codes, CAD drawing programs. I say all this because you need to educate yourself on what they are doing, as well as what you want to do.
But design it first, draw a plan, then figure what you need in the plan, research the things you want to do, and then when you have a firm idea what you want, and what it is that you want. Then go get an estimate on what you want, and prepare to be agravitated because everybody wants high $$$ for the least amount of work. Some things will be flat out of your league, but others not so much, but you still need to understand what you are asking them to do!
If I had to guess, you have never poured concrete, so go study concrete, it is in books. Next, you do not have bobcat experience, if you have room, rent one and play around, make a mess, try to do what you want done. But, be prepared to leave a mess, because pad excavation is HARD, it takes years to perfect the techniques, and your chance of success is nill. But, that's how you learn about bobcats, then pay somebody to clean up your mess, and finish your pad.
Do the pad first, design it, figure it, then get estimates on what you KNOW you need, not IDEAS, but what you already know because you did your research. There is no magic pill. You can do this, or get out your paycheck, and put 50K in play, and let everyone else figure it out! Good luck
If you have poured concrtete than you know certain constants, and I will not bore you. You can do this project in pieces, and do what you are capable of, and let pros do their part. Design is the first step, and YOU must do this part. Draw, use computer aids, get books, on plans for garages, concrete projects, and sidewalk projects. Go to the library and research building codes, concrete codes, CAD drawing programs. I say all this because you need to educate yourself on what they are doing, as well as what you want to do.
But design it first, draw a plan, then figure what you need in the plan, research the things you want to do, and then when you have a firm idea what you want, and what it is that you want. Then go get an estimate on what you want, and prepare to be agravitated because everybody wants high $$$ for the least amount of work. Some things will be flat out of your league, but others not so much, but you still need to understand what you are asking them to do!
If I had to guess, you have never poured concrete, so go study concrete, it is in books. Next, you do not have bobcat experience, if you have room, rent one and play around, make a mess, try to do what you want done. But, be prepared to leave a mess, because pad excavation is HARD, it takes years to perfect the techniques, and your chance of success is nill. But, that's how you learn about bobcats, then pay somebody to clean up your mess, and finish your pad.
Do the pad first, design it, figure it, then get estimates on what you KNOW you need, not IDEAS, but what you already know because you did your research. There is no magic pill. You can do this, or get out your paycheck, and put 50K in play, and let everyone else figure it out! Good luck
wssix99
Well-known member
BTW - If you lived in another part of the country or were building something much smaller, you could get by with a method of construction that isn't so complicated. The fact that you need foundations in your area is a big deal.
So, if it seems like other people on this site have an easier time of this - they do.
