Depth of verticle perimeter insulation

[Renovationking]

Hi guys,

First post here...

I've seen the detail of the verticle perimeter insulation with a regular foundation. Inside or outside, the perimeter insulation is run vertically from the top of the footer (four feet down) all the way up and along the side of the slab. I think I have read that 60% of the heat loss is at the perimeter, and so it is important to provide a barrier clean down to the frost line.

I'm wondering how the same thing is accomplished with pole barn construction...or maybe it isn't and that is one of the disadvantages of pole barn construction with heated concrete floors?

What do you guys do...just limit the perimeter insulation to the depth of the grade board?

I'm not thinking I could excavate a four foot trench along the inside of the poles, place the insulation and then back fill. That would just create too much continuous disturbed earth along the poles.

So...what do you guys do?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Tom

 

[theoldwizard1]

I've seen the detail of the verticle perimeter insulation with a regular foundation. Inside or outside, the perimeter insulation is run vertically from the top of the footer (four feet down) all the way up and along the side of the slab. I think I have read that 60% of the heat loss is at the perimeter, and so it is important to provide a barrier clean down to the frost line.

I'm wondering how the same thing is accomplished with pole barn construction...or maybe it isn't and that is one of the disadvantages of pole barn construction with heated concrete floors?

If you live in a cold climate and you are going to do a heated floor, perimeter vertical insulation is CRUCIAL. It should be as deep as your frost line.

The only thing you can do for a pole building is extend the insulation well past (4-6' ?) the edge of the building. Because it will only be 6" or so below grade, it will be difficult to get any thing to grow. Cover with decorative gravel.

 

[kd3pc]

If you live in a cold climate and you are going to do a heated floor, perimeter vertical insulation is CRUCIAL. It should be as deep as your frost line.

The only thing you can do for a pole building is extend the insulation well past (4-6' ?) the edge of the building. Because it will only be 6" or so below grade, it will be difficult to get any thing to grow. Cover with decorative gravel.

I believe the old wizard has done this somewhere along the line...

This is the best, well done way of describing the need for and where to go with it - insulation.

This is exactly how pole barns are built in cold weather and the owner has an expectation of using them year round, heated floors - even heated air or not. Inexpensive when you build but almost instant ROI if you fire up a heater.

Well done Wizard, and OP would be well to do this on his structure.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

I believe in insulation around the edges and under the entire slab.

 

[rburke65]

I'm down about 16" or so on my pole barn, inside and out, but all that was dug by had, on a 32'x56' pole barn. I also laid 4'x8" sheets of styrofoam flat around theperimeterto retard the frost. Covered itwith stone.

 

[Radix2]

If you google "frost protected shallow foundation" you can find the specifications for protecting a foundation without frost walls and footings using insulation beyond the building perimeter.

I think the real answer to your question of what people do varies quite a bit, but most probably just insulate directly under the slab and just hope for the best as far as frost getting under the slab.

The issue of sealing the base of walls in a pole building is one of the weak points of the design. The building a supported by the poles below the frost line, the slab is sitting on the surface...sometimes they don't move together..

 

[DCarr2]

I actually ran iinto the problem but I was on an EXTREMELY tight schedule....

the original floor in my pole barn is asphalt...and while there is a multi page thread around here regarding my floor, time and money of tearing out the asphalt was simply not going to work.

I laid dwon 2" foam, bought on CL for $15 a sheet, covered that with 6mil plastic, and then the guy guy came and laid 6x6 wire mesh, and over the next 2 days we laid 2200 linear ft of pex. there wasnt a home depot or a lowes with in 40 miles of my house that had any 1/2'' pex in stock when we got done

we got the pex laid and 'finished' by 9pm, at 8am the next morning they came to lay the floor.

I was on a serious time crunch being 4 weeks behind schedule to move my shop...due to the seller's atty taking forever to get their **** together...


so, my verticle insulation consists of 5/8 osb, ridgid foam 2'' insulation and then the metal siding...

while not ideal its better than nothing... I will address this as time goes on, as I didnt heat the building this winter.

However I did notice that the building, kept its heat, longer than I anticipated... I think once i finish off the ceiling all be ok with forced air for now, as at the moment i have 44 ends of pex in 2 different locations to contend with for when ever i decide to go with floor heat. if i ever do.. but atleast the option is there.

my pex instullation is not pretty... if I ever posted pics itd be listed under 'How NOT to install pex' LOL

 

[Renovationking]

Interesting...ok, well, this might just challenge my original thought to go with a pole barn in the first place then.

Perhaps I could go with ICF forms for a knee wall with a key way step on top to accept the concrete floor. I'm seeing these monopour systems where the footing and walls are all done at the same time. Then the foam is already there, I can backfill and roll. I may be able to manage that as I would be pretty much working alone to set all the forms and then have a mason come to the pour.

Thanks for taking the time to post a response guys. I appreciate it!

Tom

 

[like2wheel]

I'm down about 16" or so on my pole barn, inside and out, but all that was dug by had, on a 32'x56' pole barn. I also laid 4'x8" sheets of styrofoam flat around theperimeterto retard the frost. Covered itwith stone.

Are you sayig you have dug down 16" and placed the foam verticle inside AND outside the wall?

 

[jack stand]

The only thing you can do for a pole building is extend the insulation well past (4-6' ?) the edge of the building. Because it will only be 6" or so below grade, it will be difficult to get any thing to grow. Cover with decorative gravel.

Unless you have a 2' vertical insulated (could be incorporated into your slab form) THEN extend out beyond the building "footprint" an additional 4' (at the 2' below grade) similar to a FPSF*
Google "Frost protected Shallow Foundation".

 

[Hondaracer2oo4]

I have 4 foot frost walls so I am a different boat but I went with 2 feet below grade of horizontal insulation to keep frost from getting through frost wall and freezing and heaving ground underneath the garage slab. The slab has 6 inches Around the perimeter from the top of the slab to below the 2 inches of xps under the slab to give a thermal break to the frost walls. I figure that it would be hard for
Frost to make it 2+ feet down then travel horizontal 12 inches I get into the ground underneath the slab. When I have had to dig in the winter in my area I have never found frost has never approached 2 feet deep. I know that some underground work guys say that if you don't want frost to get in an underground pipe all you really need to do is run 2 inch of xps over the pipe in the trench it provides enough of a frost break to keep the frost from getting under the foam board.

 

[jack stand]

I've heard more than one guy tell me that an inch of foam (xps) is equal to a foot of earth cover. From what I've seen, it seem's about right.

 

[minerfarmer]

Sorry I don't have a better picture. Right or wrong what I did was did a trench with a tile spade between every post and attach 2 inch foam down 16 inches to inside of base board at top height of concrete to be poured later. They actually used the top of the foam to level off the concrete.

 

[minerfarmer]

Forget to mention I do not use floor heat. Went with a mini split and am very happy with it so far after two winters.