Detached garage sub-panel, is "code" per detached structure?

[Lil'John]

Hopefully a simple question with a picture.

I've got a garage, a storage shed, and the home.

The home has a service panel that is being upgraded to 200A to get rid of Zinsco panel in the next month or so. The location of the panel is circled in red.

The shed and garage are fed on separate circuits from the home service panel. My understanding is this is not to code.

The garage has a 15A clothes washer outlet(110V), a 20A clothes washer outlet(220V), and a 15A light/garage door opener outlet(110V) circuit. The shed has a light it in from unknown circuit.

The question I have is this. Does each out building require a sub panel? Or can I install a sub panel at the end of the storage shed (circled in blue) then feed the garage in some manner?

If I can do the single panel proposed, is the appropriate method to get power from the shed to the garage running conduit between the two?

One reason I ask is because I would like to get a sub panel installed while the electrician is replacing the house panel.

The other reason I ask is because I intend to expand the garage over the shed starting this spring(I hope) and would rather not have two sub panels installed.

The circuits for the garage are still in the air aside from washer, drier, and light circuits

 

[Zeke]

The code experts will come along shortly. I see no need for 2 sub panels but I would install the sub panel you want in the garage and either leave the shed alone or feed it from the new panel in the garage.

Reason? The garage will have all the circuits and you don't want to have to run them all from the shed.

 

[Lil'John]

The code experts will come along shortly. I see no need for 2 sub panels but I would install the sub panel you want in the garage and either leave the shed alone or feed it from the new panel in the garage.

Reason? The garage will have all the circuits and you don't want to have to run them all from the shed.

True on most of the circuits being in the garage. But I'm not intending to do my full garage wiring until I expand it. At worse case for the short term, I will upgrade my drier to 30A and the washer to 20A. I will then run one new 20A circuit and leave the 15A light circuit.

But, the edge of the shed is the new wall of the garage so if I did conduit for the sub panel, I'd have to dig it up again and rewire.

I can pull/adjust the wiring from the garage to the shed a little bit easier than the sub.

 

[soj]

The other reason I ask is because I intend to expand the garage over the shed starting this spring(I hope) and would rather not have two sub panels installed.

The circuits for the garage are still in the air aside from washer, drier, and light circuits

Could you explain what you mean by "over the shed"?

 

[Lil'John]

Could you explain what you mean by "over the shed"?

Kind of like over the hedge but meaner

Actually, I am going to demo the shed and extend the garage in place of it.

Imagine if you will the side of the garage with the fence is east. I intend to extend the west wall of the garage to the same location as the west wall of the shed (ie ~12 feet to the west)

Actually, I'm going a bit more than that... demolish almost all the garage except the west wall and redo the north/south walls I suspect that I have to leave the west wall up because of setbacks and having that side grandfathered in

 

[2ManyProjects]

Hopefully a simple question with a picture.

I've got a garage, a storage shed, and the home.

The home has a service panel that is being upgraded to 200A to get rid of Zinsco panel in the next month or so.

True on most of the circuits being in the garage. But I'm not intending to do my full garage wiring until I expand it.

Kind of like over the hedge but meaner

Actually, I am going to demo the shed and extend the garage in place of it.

Imagine if you will the side of the garage with the fence is east. I intend to extend the west wall of the garage to the same location as the west wall of the shed (ie ~12 feet to the west)

Actually, I'm going a bit more than that... demolish almost all the garage except the west wall and redo the north/south walls I suspect that I have to leave the west wall up because of setbacks and having that side grandfathered in

I'm almost "thinking out loud" here, so bear with me...

First, I agree with others that one sub-panel is probably preferable to two sub panels, as long as it's "legal" (cue the code jockeys) and you're not planning to run more than that one convenience lamp in the shed (and even that is apparently "temporary" anyway). I also agree that the right place for the sub-panel is in/on the garage, not the shed.

Second... Is the existing garage as tight to the rear property line as it appears to be on the (East?) side? If not, one possible solution would be to run the feeder from the main panel (on the house; I presume the new panel is staying where the old one now is) overhead to a shortish (get above the garage roof, but not by much) pole installed at the rear of the garage. From there, you can enter the garage wherever is convenient on the rear wall, and would presumably install the subpanel inside very near that location. When you get around to rebuilding the garage, you have two choices: The simple/cheap way would be to disconnect the feeder cable from the sub-panel, lash it up to the pole to keep it out of the way, then re-install after the new basic structure is completed. A more elegant solution would involve re-routing the feeder underground once you've cleared a path for it via demolition.

Without knowing what you're planning to use the (new) garage for, and what sort of tools/machinery you plan to run, it's near-impossible to predict what size/capacity sub-panel you will eventually need. But purely in the spirit of throwing a dart while blindfolded, I'll note that 2-2-2-4 AL MHF is cost-effective, and good for up to 90 Amps when used for this purpose -- and you'd need to be doing some truly exceptional things to need more than 90A in the garage.

 

[Lil'John]

I'm almost "thinking out loud" here, so bear with me...

First, I agree with others that one sub-panel is probably preferable to two sub panels, as long as it's "legal" (cue the code jockeys) and you're not planning to run more than that one convenience lamp in the shed (and even that is apparently "temporary" anyway). I also agree that the right place for the sub-panel is in/on the garage, not the shed.

Unfortunately, getting to the garage "underground" isn't as easy at the picture looks. The shed is on a slab that goes from the right side all the way up to the garage slab

Behind the shed is a pair of propane tanks. So even trying to run a line parallel to the hill behind the garage is problematic. Nevermind the fact that the hill behind the garage and shed is mostly rock

Second... Is the existing garage as tight to the rear property line as it appears to be on the (East?) side? If not, one possible solution would be to run the feeder from the main panel (on the house; I presume the new panel is staying where the old one now is) overhead to a shortish (get above the garage roof, but not by much) pole installed at the rear of the garage. From there, you can enter the garage wherever is convenient on the rear wall, and would presumably install the subpanel inside very near that location. When you get around to rebuilding the garage, you have two choices: The simple/cheap way would be to disconnect the feeder cable from the sub-panel, lash it up to the pole to keep it out of the way, then re-install after the new basic structure is completed. A more elegant solution would involve re-routing the feeder underground once you've cleared a path for it via demolition.

Yes, I intend for the house panel to stay where it is currently.

When you say "rear property line", are you talking about directly opposite the garage door where the hill goes upward (south)? Or the edge between the 1900 garage and the garage to the left of that(east).

I believe that the white fence on the left of the picture is the east property line between the two houses.

The southern property line behind the garage door is uphill. The hill starts very quickly behind the garage(~2 foot). As noted above, the area behind the shed and garage are what I would call VERY rocky

I could put the panel on the back of the garage(south side) but I'm not sure if that is the most convenient spot.

Just as a footnote, the intention during the garage remodel is to rotate the roofline 90 degree from the way it is now. Basically, it will end up oriented the same as the shed and home.

Without knowing what you're planning to use the (new) garage for, and what sort of tools/machinery you plan to run, it's near-impossible to predict what size/capacity sub-panel you will eventually need. But purely in the spirit of throwing a dart while blindfolded, I'll note that 2-2-2-4 AL MHF is cost-effective, and good for up to 90 Amps when used for this purpose -- and you'd need to be doing some truly exceptional things to need more than 90A in the garage.

The garage is going to get the typical fabrication toolset: welder, air compressor, plasma cutter, assortment of grinders, drills, sawzall, etc. Like most home fab guys, I'd love a "small" mill This is in addition to the washer and drier

 

[soj]

I am thinking I would leave it as is until doing the garage rebuild, then run a new feeder to ONE building.

If you feel you MUST do something now, I would feed the shed with the wire size and panel you anticipate for the new garage. Put it in the west wall of the shed, which will be the new west wall of the garage.

 

[2ManyProjects]

Unfortunately, getting to the garage "underground" isn't as easy at the picture looks. The shed is on a slab that goes from the right side all the way up to the garage slab

Yeah, but you're going to demo all that when it comes time to build the new garage, right? So what does it matter? Besides, I don't think I'd want the feeder line running UNDER a slab, regardless of whether or not is is an old slab or new construction; tho' I suppose you could do that if you really wanted to.

Behind the shed is a pair of propane tanks. So even trying to run a line parallel to the hill behind the garage is problematic. Nevermind the fact that the hill behind the garage and shed is mostly rock

"Rocky" is one thing. Solid ledge/bedrock is another. If it's the latter, you probably have no choice but to go overhead, even for the long term configuration. If it is the former, then even if it's only for the short term, surely SOMEWHERE back there you can find a spot to dig (perhaps with the help of a two-man power auger, rented for the day) a hole big enough to support a 12-15 foot tall (W-A-G based on photo) pole.

As for the propane tanks, I don't understand how they're significant. In the short term, even if the the feeder cable happens to pass over them, it will be several feet up; so how is that a problem? In the longer term, the tanks are just as mutable as any other part of the project (i.e., they can be moved, removed, replaced, whatever, as needed). So... Cross that bridge if/when you get to it.

When you say "rear property line", are you talking about directly opposite the garage door where the hill goes upward (south)?

Yes. My only concern with that comment was whether or not you had enough room to install the pole, without running into still more setback issues or some such. The photo is not large enough or clear enough for me to glean any details of what lies behind that garage; it just looks like random vegetation to me.

The southern property line behind the garage door is uphill. The hill starts very quickly behind the garage(~2 foot). As noted above, the area behind the shed and garage are what I would call VERY rocky

I might be missing something; but I don't see how the hill is a problem. If anything, it somewhat reduces the height of the pole you'd need. And besides, unless you're also planning to extend the garage footprint to the rear, then two feet is more than enough room for what I described.

I could put the panel on the back of the garage(south side) but I'm not sure if that is the most convenient spot.

"Convenient", in what context? Easiest to install? Shortest distance to the main panel? Corresponding to the best interior location for the sub-panel? I suspect that each of these (and more) will turn out to be completely different places. But you won't really know until you plan EVERYTHING out in some detail.

Just as a footnote, the intention during the garage remodel is to rotate the roofline 90 degree from the way it is now. Basically, it will end up oriented the same as the shed and home.

At which point, a new overhead feeder running from (approximately) the gable peak on the house to (approximately) the gable peak on the new garage would seem to be be both feasible, and relatively inexpensive. Or for that matter, like I said before, you could then run the new feeder underground. Either way, the feeder you put in now would likely be a write-off; but I think you probably just need to accept that, and move on. I don't think you're going to find a single "one size fits all" solution that will constitute THE ideal "best of all worlds" configuration for BOTH the existing structure(s) and the post-remodel configuration, without obsoleting SOMETHING in the process. But so what? In the context of a complete from-scratch garage build (which is what you're really talking about in the longer term, notwithstanding possibly leaving part of one old wall in place to get around the setback issue), if all you "waste" is a few hundred bucks worth of wire, you're doing just fine.

The garage is going to get the typical fabrication toolset: welder, air compressor, plasma cutter, assortment of grinders, drills, sawzall, etc. Like most home fab guys, I'd love a "small" mill This is in addition to the washer and drier

Sounds to me like the aforementioned 90A service to the garage would be right on-target. It's probably even a bit more than you'll need; but IMCO you near-certainly can't save enough money by stepping back to, say, 60A, to make that worth bothering with.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not reading all the above posts, so this may have been addressed already:

Hopefully a simple question with a picture.

I've got a garage, a storage shed, and the home.

The home has a service panel that is being upgraded to 200A to get rid of Zinsco panel in the next month or so. The location of the panel is circled in red.

The shed and garage are fed on separate circuits from the home service panel. My understanding is this is not to code.

The garage has a 15A clothes washer outlet(110V), a 20A clothes washer outlet(220V), and a 15A light/garage door opener outlet(110V) circuit. The shed has a light it in from unknown circuit.

The question I have is this. Does each out building require a sub panel? Or can I install a sub panel at the end of the storage shed (circled in blue) then feed the garage in some manner?

If I can do the single panel proposed, is the appropriate method to get power from the shed to the garage running conduit between the two?

One reason I ask is because I would like to get a sub panel installed while the electrician is replacing the house panel.

The other reason I ask is because I intend to expand the garage over the shed starting this spring(I hope) and would rather not have two sub panels installed.

The circuits for the garage are still in the air aside from washer, drier, and light circuits

Are the 3 garage circuits all fed separately from the main service panel? A detached structure CANNOT have more than one source of power. So no, having all those separate circuits feeding the garage is not to code!

As far as the shed getting its own feed, no, thats not against code, as long as its detached from the garage!

 

[Lil'John]

Are the 3 garage circuits all fed separately from the main service panel? A detached structure CANNOT have more than one source of power. So no, having all those separate circuits feeding the garage is not to code!

Yes, all three garage circuits are fed separately from the main service panel. One breaker per circuit.

 

[Lil'John]

"Rocky" is one thing. Solid ledge/bedrock is another. If it's the latter, you probably have no choice but to go overhead, even for the long term configuration. If it is the former, then even if it's only for the short term, surely SOMEWHERE back there you can find a spot to dig (perhaps with the help of a two-man power auger, rented for the day) a hole big enough to support a 12-15 foot tall (W-A-G based on photo) pole.

While I haven't checked the entire are behind the garage. Most of what I have run into is solid rock beneath the ivy So I'm not sure if digging anything behind the garage is even feasible.

As for the propane tanks, I don't understand how they're significant. In the short term, even if the the feeder cable happens to pass over them, it will be several feet up; so how is that a problem? In the longer term, the tanks are just as mutable as any other part of the project (i.e., they can be moved, removed, replaced, whatever, as needed). So... Cross that bridge if/when you get to it.

I mentioned the propane tanks because of the gas line underground. I'm not sure of what type of spacing is required around those with regards to electric. They actually are going to get shuffled a bit for the garage project. I know the propane company wants 10 feet from outside facing electric plugs.

Yes. My only concern with that comment was whether or not you had enough room to install the pole, without running into still more setback issues or some such. The photo is not large enough or clear enough for me to glean any details of what lies behind that garage; it just looks like random vegetation to me.

It is ivy running over mostly solid rock. To extend that backside wall is going to require a bit of rock busting work

"Convenient", in what context? Easiest to install? Shortest distance to the main panel? Corresponding to the best interior location for the sub-panel? I suspect that each of these (and more) will turn out to be completely different places. But you won't really know until you plan EVERYTHING out in some detail.

By convenient I actually meant ease of access. My car barely squeaks in the garage so having it buried by the car does concern me a bit. I have maybe 1 foot in front of the car and maybe 6" behind it

At which point, a new overhead feeder running from (approximately) the gable peak on the house to (approximately) the gable peak on the new garage would seem to be be both feasible, and relatively inexpensive. Or for that matter, like I said before, you could then run the new feeder underground. Either way, the feeder you put in now would likely be a write-off; but I think you probably just need to accept that, and move on. I don't think you're going to find a single "one size fits all" solution that will constitute THE ideal "best of all worlds" configuration for BOTH the existing structure(s) and the post-remodel configuration, without obsoleting SOMETHING in the process. But so what? In the context of a complete from-scratch garage build (which is what you're really talking about in the longer term, notwithstanding possibly leaving part of one old wall in place to get around the setback issue), if all you "waste" is a few hundred bucks worth of wire, you're doing just fine.

You are right in terms of making a mountain over a mole hill. The extra 10-15' of feed wiring probably isn't going to break the bank in the scope of a complete garage remodel.

 

[CNGsaves]

First off, welcome to GJ. You'll get great advice from fellow GJer's if you provide enough details.

That being said, is this in USA ?? Where, as electrical codes are specific by some local city restrictions. Would help if you further label your picture with directions as your post starts talking S of this, and W of that . . . . hard to follow without the picture being labeled.

Now would be good time to Update GJ Profile with Country / State / City.

If you're trying to avoid buried electric feeder in conduit (ie one SINGLE run that provides ALL electric to garage / shed - - - needs single shutoff), then you'll have to comply with any city restrictions for overhead electric.

Don't take any shortcuts. Your current multiple circuits out there is a disaster. Get multiple quotes from electricians on how to do it right. Go from there as to what work you can do to keep $$$$ manageable.

Good luck, but be safe.

 

[Lil'John]

First off, welcome to GJ. You'll get great advice from fellow GJer's if you provide enough details.

That being said, is this in USA ?? Where, as electrical codes are specific by some local city restrictions. Would help if you further label your picture with directions as your post starts talking S of this, and W of that . . . . hard to follow without the picture being labeled.

Now would be good time to Update GJ Profile with Country / State / City.

If you're trying to avoid buried electric feeder in conduit (ie one SINGLE run that provides ALL electric to garage / shed - - - needs single shutoff), then you'll have to comply with any city restrictions for overhead electric.

Don't take any shortcuts. Your current multiple circuits out there is a disaster. Get multiple quotes from electricians on how to do it right. Go from there as to what work you can do to keep $$$$ manageable.

Good luck, but be safe.

Good point on the location... it is now adjusted

Good point on more pictures. Hopefully the attached picture will help this time. I've drawn in the rocky hill behind the garage as well as identified east and south. The east edge is the property line so I'm not able to do much there.

I forgot to identify the gap between garage and shed but it is 2 foot Also missing is the gap between shed and breaker box... it is close to 15 feet.

I'm only trying to avoid a buried electric feeder in a conduit to the current west side of the garage because it would have to be removed shortly.

 

[soj]

Thanks, the drawing helps.

Again, IF you MUST do something before the garage rebuild, here is one suggestion:

Feed the shed with a permanent, underground circuit and sub panel, sized to match your anticipated loads after the garage is rebuilt. Feed the existing garage circuits with new wire from the new sub panel.

How to get from the shed to the garage? This is NOT to code, because you would still be feeding a building with multiple circuits, but I would put a 2X4 or 2X6 on edge between the shed and garage (overhead), fasten a 10' stick of conduit to the side of it (each end extending into each building) and pull three NM cables through it. If possible cut those cables to the length needed to be able to reuse them in the new garage. This way you don't have any underground cable or conduit to abandon later. Tearing down the shed wall and building the new garage wall around the sub panel could be a bit of a challenge, but doable.

The only way to meet code would be to feed a sub panel in the garage from the shed or your house.

But, again, I would just wait till I rebuilt the garage, and do it all at that time. Esp. if that project starts this spring... not that far away.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Are the 3 garage circuits all fed separately from the main service panel? A detached structure CANNOT have more than one source of power. So no, having all those separate circuits feeding the garage is not to code!

As far as the shed getting its own feed, no, thats not against code, as long as its detached from the garage!

I concur !

Now the real question is, what are your local building inspectors make you correct as part of the work of replacing you main panel ? It is highly likely that you can leave the existing wiring alone, but only you local inspector can tell you that.

Is up to current code ? No. It was up to code (hopefully) when built and should be "grandfathered".

Is it safe ? For the homeowner, yes. Everything is on a breaker. Not really safe for anyone working on the wiring in the garage because they don't know which circuit is protected by which breaker or even how many breakers are really involved.


What you are asking is similar to this situation. My daughter's 65 year old house had A/C added in about 1980. The fuse box was replaced by a circuit breaker panel with a 2 pole breaker for the A/C. None of the other wiring in the house was touched (grandfathered) even though all of the wiring had no ground. Now of course when we remodeled the kitchen last winter, we added the appropriate number and size of circuits for a modern kitchen.

If you make any "significant changes" to your garage, you will be required to update the wiring to current code at that time.

 

[Lil'John]

Feed the shed with a permanent, underground circuit and sub panel, sized to match your anticipated loads after the garage is rebuilt. Feed the existing garage circuits with new wire from the new sub panel.<snip my initial thought better put>

This is somewhat the way I was thinking of going to get "safe" power to the garage. I'm not sure I trust the current garage wiring to using welder, grinder, etc for some projects I have to do during the winter.

I concur !

Now the real question is, what are your local building inspectors make you correct as part of the work of replacing you main panel ? It is highly likely that you can leave the existing wiring alone, but only you local inspector can tell you that.

Is up to current code ? No. It was up to code (hopefully) when built and should be "grandfathered".

Is it safe ? For the homeowner, yes. Everything is on a breaker. Not really safe for anyone working on the wiring in the garage because they don't know which circuit is protected by which breaker or even how many breakers are really involved.
<snip>
If you make any "significant changes" to your garage, you will be required to update the wiring to current code at that time.

On upgrading the wire when the panel is done, I called the building department and was told I didn't have to. Do I plan to? Absolutely. I'm not comfortable with some of the wiring I've seen in the house or garage

When I do the garage upgrade, I intend to fully over rewire

 

[2ManyProjects]

Yes, all three garage circuits are fed separately from the main service panel. One breaker per circuit.

As others have pointed out, that's NFG. and probably would never have been permitted even back when it was first installed (I'm betting they were D-I-Y installs, with no inspections, etc.).

One of your larger potential problems now is, will you be forced to re-do it (to current code) in the course of replacing your main service panel? Or will they consider it "grandfathered" and let you slide on it at least until you actually do the garage remodel? If the latter, and IF you are serious about doing that garage remodel in the not-too-distant future (say, several months or so), then my current suggestion would be to let sleeping dogs lie, if you can. As already discussed, whatever you put in now in the way of a stop-gap sub-panel/feeder arrangement for the existing building(s) will surely be at least partially obsoleted by the new garage build anyway. And from your various subsequent comments, it seems clear that even a stop-gap interim installation will likely be sufficiently "involved" that you'd really not want to throw all that away six months later. So if you can simply side-step that whole mess by being extra patient about upgrading the garage electrical, your life becomes much easier overall.

[Side note: It just might help convince the AHJ to let you leave well enough alone if you were to (permanently) remove the electrical feed to the shed, especially if (as I think I understand) it is piggy-backed/daisy-chained off one of those circuits feeding the garage (and/or is in general as far into "hack work" territory as I suspect it might be). Losing one lightbulb for awhile seems an easy trade-off for not having to do a major chunk of this job twice.]

While I haven't checked the entire are behind the garage. Most of what I have run into is solid rock beneath the ivy So I'm not sure if digging anything behind the garage is even feasible.

Well, that's something you need to get a handle on, before you can realistically assess the feasibility of each possible approach.

I mentioned the propane tanks because of the gas line underground. I'm not sure of what type of spacing is required around those with regards to electric. They actually are going to get shuffled a bit for the garage project. I know the propane company wants 10 feet from outside facing electric plugs.

OK. But in that case, they are still irrelevant until and unless you do attempt to run an underground feeder -- which I really can't see being worthwhile until you actually do the garage rebuild.

It is ivy running over mostly solid rock. To extend that backside wall is going to require a bit of rock busting work

This is one more reason I think you need to focus more on the permanent solution, and less on the stop-gap measures.

By convenient I actually meant ease of access. My car barely squeaks in the garage so having it buried by the car does concern me a bit. I have maybe 1 foot in front of the car and maybe 6" behind it

In which case, I have to question the proposed size of the new garage, as shown in that little sketch you posted. If you're THAT tight in terms of front-to-back space now, merely widening the garage isn't going to help much. Making it deeper, however....

Hopefully the attached picture will help this time. I've drawn in the rocky hill behind the garage as well as identified east and south. The east edge is the property line so I'm not able to do much there.

But unless there is still more you have not (yet) told us, there's no reason you can't move the front ("North") wall closer to the street, right?

I forgot to identify the gap between garage and shed but it is 2 foot Also missing is the gap between shed and breaker box... it is close to 15 feet.

In which case, and given the stated difficulty in digging behind the garage, IF you insist on (or are forced to) upgrade the wiring to the existing garage immediately, that gap might be a better place for that (temporary) support pole for the feed line. If I understand your sketch correctly, the slab upon which the shed currently sits does not extend all the way back to the garage's rear wall. That might let you get far enough away from that rock "cliff" to make the digging easier. Obviously, it would have to come out again when you actually do the garage remodel; but so be it, if this is your only way to keep power going to the washer & dryer in the meantime.

I'm only trying to avoid a buried electric feeder in a conduit to the current west side of the garage because it would have to be removed shortly.

Just in case I have not been sufficiently clear thus far, I would NOT run any "temporary" feeder underground, period (unless, of course, you are absolutely forced to by the local authorities; but I suspect that is unlikely). Why go to that extra trouble & expense for something that you will near-certainly have to abandon and/or rip out six months later?

Feed the shed with a permanent, underground circuit and sub panel, sized to match your anticipated loads after the garage is rebuilt. Feed the existing garage circuits with new wire from the new sub panel.

I might be missing something here; but I just don't see this as feasible.

First, as you later noted, by code he'd then need a second sub-panel in the existing garage (due to the "one power source per structure" issue). Yes, it could potentially be daisy-chained off the shed sub-panel; but even so, at least one of these sub-panels would be a complete write-off after the garage rebuild. Given the other work (i.e., the new main service panel, which will surely involve an inspection) being done concurrently, the chances of this NOT being demanded by the AHJ are somewhere between "slim" and "none". OTOH, if he's just disconnecting existing branch-circuit wires from the old panel, then re-connecting those same wires to the new panel, that has a MUCH better chance of being permitted.

Second, how is he to be sure that this "permanent" feeder will be in exactly the right place vis-a-vis the new garage (which apparently has not even been designed yet, at least not in any detail)? For that matter, would it even physically survive having the existing slab(s) ripped out and re-poured as part of the new garage project? (Hmmmm... PVC conduit vs. ham-handed backhoe operator-- who wins?) Granted, the slabs themselves have not yet been discussed in much detail (at least not in this thread; I've not checked other Forum sections); but based on the currently available info, it seems pretty obvious that trying to "jigsaw puzzle" filler pieces in among the existing slabs is not likely to make for a nice smooth, level floor for the new garage. Hence, I am presuming that the old concrete will be discarded en toto when the time comes. (Besides, Placerville is far enough up into the Sierra Nevada foothills that at least some semi-serious insulation under the slab -- and perhaps PEX tubing within it -- likely ought to be considered S.O.P. for any "serious" garage anyway. So that's one more reason to figure on the rip out and re-do approach, rather than trying to cobble together a Rube Goldberg-esque hodge-podge of old/new, big/small, level/tilted, higher/lower pieces.)

But, again, I would just wait till I rebuilt the garage, and do it all at that time. Esp. if that project starts this spring... not that far away.

Agreed. The best way to deal with this whole mess is to disturb as little of the old work as possible, until such time as it ALL can be done "really right". That is, presuming the AHJ will permit this.

 

[Lil'John]

shown in that little sketch you posted. If you're THAT tight in terms of front-to-back space now, merely widening the garage isn't going to help much. Making it deeper, however....

But unless there is still more you have not (yet) told us, there's no reason you can't move the front ("North") wall closer to the street, right?

I believe what will prevent me from going any deeper is the required 5 foot set back from the property line. I do not believe I will be allowed to extend the east wall at all.

Adding width to the garage will help me much more than the depth. Currently with 18" lockers on the east wall and washer/drier on west wall, I am very tight that way for doing work on the car. This isn't to discount the depth as being an issue.

I won't mention the 1-2" squeak through the garage height issue

Second, how is he to be sure that this "permanent" feeder will be in exactly the right place vis-a-vis the new garage (which apparently has not even been designed yet, at least not in any detail)? For that matter, would it even physically survive having the existing slab(s) ripped out and re-poured as part of the new garage project? (Hmmmm... PVC conduit vs. ham-handed backhoe operator-- who wins?) Granted, the slabs themselves have not yet been discussed in much detail (at least not in this thread; I've not checked other Forum sections); but based on the currently available info, it seems pretty obvious that trying to "jigsaw puzzle" filler pieces in among the existing slabs is not likely to make for a nice smooth, level floor for the new garage. Hence, I am presuming that the old concrete will be discarded en toto when the time comes. (Besides, Placerville is far enough up into the Sierra Nevada foothills that at least some semi-serious insulation under the slab -- and perhaps PEX tubing within it -- likely ought to be considered S.O.P. for any "serious" garage anyway. So that's one more reason to figure on the rip out and re-do approach, rather than trying to cobble together a Rube Goldberg-esque hodge-podge of old/new, big/small, level/tilted, higher/lower pieces.)

On the backhoe, I'm not sure the bridge will support a serious one going over

The house is at ~2200 foot... so yup, can get snow somewhat rarely.

For overall new garage build, I am going to consult with architect/engineer. I know dimensions I can do but am not up to code/best practice for things like concrete.

On the slab, the shed stuff is 100% gone during new garage addition. For the garage slab, I know I could splice to it.

 

[Aceman]

I didn't read all the replies, so maybe it's already been said.

Both buildings are separate structures and will both need a means of disconnect. If your shed will only be fed with one circuit or two circuits sharing a neutral you can get away with using snap switches as disconnects. If you install a panel, you will need grounds rods. If you decide to install panels in both buildings, I would drive two rods between them and run the ground wire from one panel down through the rods and up into the panel in the other building.

I once did a job for a guy that had 4 sheds about ten feet apart. We put panels in all of them and also drove rods between them so we could share 'em.

 

[2ManyProjects]

I believe what will prevent me from going any deeper is the required 5 foot set back from the property line.

I wasn't talking about going further back. Setback limits or no, the two-foot distance to a solid rock cliff is enough of a limiting factor already. I was talking about coming further forward -- i.e., toward the camera in your first pic (which I presumed was also toward the street). It appears that you have plenty of room to grow in that direction before any setback issues would rear their ugly heads.

I do not believe I will be allowed to extend the east wall at all.

"Extend" or "move"? The latter, I can understand: It's already closer to the property line than TPTB would prefer; so if anything, you might be forced to move it the wrong (vis-a-vis your goals) direction. But given that the wall is already there, a modest (say, 4-6 feet) extension of it in the direction I suggested doesn't seem too outrageous, or something that would necessarily raise the ire of the local zoning fiefs.

Adding width to the garage will help me much more than the depth. Currently with 18" lockers on the east wall and washer/drier on west wall, I am very tight that way for doing work on the car. This isn't to discount the depth as being an issue.

Were I you, I'd want to do both. If the local bureaucrats are REALLY fussy, you MIGHT have to do this in two stages: Stage 1 would comprise ONLY a lengthwise extension of the existing garage, and that's exactly what would be reflected in the drawings you submit in the process of getting your building permit. Once that is approved, pour your footers and erect at least the framing and sheathing of this extension. How far you'll have to actually finish it off will depend on your local political and bureaucratic climate. In any event, once you're as done with that as you need to be, you "suddenly realize" that you really need still more room, after all. So Stage 2 then widens the "existing" (but now several feet longer) garage, and another set of drawings gets submitted, reflecting just that. The "extended" old garage having already been approved and built (and thus "grandfathered"), they would have little or no grounds to deny the Stage 2 permits. This approach will, of course, make the whole project more expensive; as you will probably need (or at least want) to tear out most of what you built for Stage 1 in the process of doing Stage 2. But if this is what it takes to get what you really want, then that's just the way it is.

I won't mention the 1-2" squeak through the garage height issue

And I'd fix that, too, if at all possible. A ceiling height of 9-10 feet is generally considered "normal" for a residential garage; but you'll want at least 12 feet if you plan to ever add a lift (even if it's just a storage lift, as opposed to a "working" lift). Are the local height restrictions really all that onerous, that this would be a problem?

On the backhoe, I'm not sure the bridge will support a serious one going over

Bridge? What bridge? You mean that little culvert cover near the street end of your driveway? That's nothing. If push came to shove, a large steel plate could be temporarily plopped down over that whole area. Whomever runs the backhoe service probably has several such lying around for just such situations.

But, having been prompted to take another look at that pic, I now notice that the driveway itself is in rather sad shape. So that's one more thing to add to the "rip out and re-do" list, when the time comes. The upside of this is, that also gives you one less thing to worry about in terms of expanding the garage; you can make that slab pour as large as necessary, then abut the new driveway to that.

The house is at ~2200 foot... so yup, can get snow somewhat rarely.

Insulation is your friend. (So is PEX tubing in the slab; but that's another topic.)

For overall new garage build, I am going to consult with architect/engineer. I know dimensions I can do but am not up to code/best practice for things like concrete.

Good move. But as you do so, keep in mind that "standard practice" is rarely the same thing as "best practice", pretty much regardless of the context, and modest amounts of overkill are almost always a good thing. But to go much deeper into this, and how it might specifically apply to your project(s), would surely veer the thread too far off-topic.

On the slab, the shed stuff is 100% gone during new garage addition.

Good.

For the garage slab, I know I could splice to it.

Perhaps you could. But would you really want to? I think not; and I strongly urge you to really think about this before going in that direction. For the relatively small savings retaining part of the old slab could produce, you would be giving up a LOT of potential improvement in not only the floor itself, but the entire building.

 

[Lil'John]

I wasn't talking about going further back. Setback limits or no, the two-foot distance to a solid rock cliff is enough of a limiting factor already. I was talking about coming further forward -- i.e., toward the camera in your first pic (which I presumed was also toward the street). It appears that you have plenty of room to grow in that direction before any setback issues would rear their ugly heads.

"Extend" or "move"? The latter, I can understand: It's already closer to the property line than TPTB would prefer; so if anything, you might be forced to move it the wrong (vis-a-vis your goals) direction. But given that the wall is already there, a modest (say, 4-6 feet) extension of it in the direction I suggested doesn't seem too outrageous, or something that would necessarily raise the ire of the local zoning fiefs.

After I sent the previous email, I stopped by the local building department over setbacks. To confirm we are talking same language, a setback is a minimum distance away from a property line.

Short version is no issues going away from the fence as the red in my picture reflects.

However, if I want to extend along the fence whether into the hill or away from the hill, I need to apply for a variance which sounds like it could get hairy and expensive. In talking with the neighbor on that side, I don't believe he would have an issue with it.

And I'd fix that, too, if at all possible. A ceiling height of 9-10 feet is generally considered "normal" for a residential garage; but you'll want at least 12 feet if you plan to ever add a lift (even if it's just a storage lift, as opposed to a "working" lift). Are the local height restrictions really all that onerous, that this would be a problem?

Ceiling was goodish. The garage door opening at 7 foot exact is tight. My car is a modest 6' 10" I am intending to get the opening to at least 8 foot and hopefully 9.

From the picture I've seen of the neighbor's garage(barely visible in first picture on the left side), I could raise the roof on mine about four foot and not over power his

 

[2ManyProjects]

After I sent the previous email, I stopped by the local building department over setbacks. To confirm we are talking same language, a setback is a minimum distance away from a property line.

Yes, we agree on the terminology.

Short version is no issues going away from the fence as the red in my picture reflects.

No surprise there.

However, if I want to extend along the fence whether into the hill or away from the hill, I need to apply for a variance which sounds like it could get hairy and expensive.

This can depend somewhat on the local political/bureaucratic climate; but normally, it's not really that big a deal, as long as you handle it right. The situation in my area (which I think is fairly typical) is that one must send a (registered, I think) letter to every neighbor who can see your property (or at least that portion of your property where the variance will be applied) from their property, outlining in some detail exactly how you want to "bend the rules" (typically including a drawing or sketch), and notifying them of the date, time & place your variance hearing will be held in front of the Zoning Board. As long as none of those neighbors object (and probably also presuming that whatever you're asking for is not blatantly outrageous on its face), granting the variance is USUALLY pro forma.

In talking with the neighbor on that side, I don't believe he would have an issue with it.

There's your key, right there. As the immediately adjacent neighbor, his voice will be most strongly considered by the Zoning Board. Keep him happy!

Ceiling was goodish. The garage door opening at 7 foot exact is tight. My car is a modest 6' 10"

Say, WHAT?!?

What sort of "car" is anything like that tall? A ridiculously "lifted" 4x4 off-road truck (which, if there were any justice in this world would never ever be used ON a public road), maybe... But a passenger car?!?

I am intending to get the opening to at least 8 foot and hopefully 9.

Eight-foot tall garage doors are commonly available; and you will surely find a large selection of attractive ones to choose from. The same can't be said for nine-footers; and I suspect that such a tall door would also look more than a little "odd" from the curb.

From the picture I've seen of the neighbor's garage(barely visible in first picture on the left side), I could raise the roof on mine about four foot and not over power his

All well and good. But keep your eyes on the prize, in terms of getting that zoning variance. Whatever drawings, sketches, artist's renderings, etc., you submit (including in those aforementioned letters) should make the project look as attractive as possible, particularly to people who don't give a mouse's derriere about whether or not it actually "works" for you. The idea is to leave the impression that what you want to do will enhance property values in the neighborhood, as opposed to diluting them, and is therefore a good idea from their point of view.

 

[Lil'John]

Thanks for the heads up on the variance type stuff. It does give me some hope.

Say, WHAT?!?

What sort of "car" is anything like that tall? A ridiculously "lifted" 4x4 off-road truck (which, if there were any justice in this world would never ever be used ON a public road), maybe... But a passenger car?!?

My small SUV is shorter than a lot of stock full size trucks/SUVs It is a 71 Land Cruiser with new everything... I think the engine at 35k miles is the only thing mechanical not fully rebuilt Stops straight/short, steers safely, and handles better than my old stock 99 Tacoma when I bought it new