Developing Raw Land. Q&A

[NTBorer]

Hello GJ'ers!

Western NY'er here. I just introduced myself in another thread. I've got a line on a nice piece of property, but it isn't for the faint of heart. It is about 5 acres and just went on the market. It's heavily treed (awesome) and heavily sloped (awesome....expensive), and it's raw. No water, no electricity, no sewer. Water and electric are available though, at the road. The hill is a near %15 grade in some spots, and as little as %6 in others.

The property has about two acres of flat land, this is where I will build by family home, say, 5 - 10 years from now. In the near term, I would like to build a small garage/apartment to live out of until a need for the bigger house presents itself. This apartment would be detached from the future main house, and will eventually serve as the shop / hang-out space. The first picture is from the road looking up the hill and to the left side, the second is looking up the hill and to the right side, and the third is the cul de sac.

This is my first real estate purchase, and I am certainly not schooled in transforming virgin ground.


Can you lend me some advice (costs much appreciated!!) about the following:

Bringing water/elec to the house
Installing a septic system / perc testing
cutting / filling / driveway cost and design
great examples of garage/apartment combos to convince my girlfriend!

 

[e30bradley]

unless the GF is putting her money into this project why do you need to convince her of anything? I can't help with anything about the costs of this but I'll be checking back to see how this comes along. Good luck with your first property

 

[NTBorer]

unless the GF is putting her money into this project why do you need to convince her of anything? I can't help with anything about the costs of this but I'll be checking back to see how this comes along. Good luck with your first property

Well....I hope to make that girlfriend my wife someday, so I want to make sure she'll want to be there too!! And save up for that acreage, I'd like to have a beer there someday!



See the attached scan of the property survey. "Lot 11" is the one I am interested in. The cul de sac / front of the property is at the top of the page.

 

[oltruckag]

I wish you luck - my parents did that when I was 6~11. Cleared a lot, built an 800 sqft garage (with the doors framed in and insulated) and we lived in that for 2 years while we built the house.

You're gonna need a tractor, saws, trailer, truck, and most importantly - Help. It's a huge amount of work, but overall 24 years later I would say it was worth it.

The water and elec costs shouldn't be bad if they are at the road, just the cost of wire/pipe/trench/labor to get it to the build site. Septic may be interesting - I know nothing of NY soil.

Driveway - again, depends on how far in you are building. Get a box blade for the tractor you're gonna buy and drag your own road. Then cover with rock or asphault.

Assuming you are willing to spend your weekends for the next few months/years working the land it looks like you will end up with a nice place.

Tyson

 

[Zeke]

Has anyone started building out there yet? Developers often sell a dream and not much more. Step back and think this through. In the end you will always be better off buying something already built even if you have to rework it. Just needs good bones, but that's the subject for another thread.

You can't live on a cloud.

 

[RickP]

That looks like a beautiful property - I hope you end up getting it! We built our home on a similar lot, so I can give you my experience. The first thing is the perc test, because that will determine the house site. Check with the local health dept, because sometimes the tests can only be done in the spring. Size the septic field for the number of bedrooms you plan for the house. A local septic installer should be able to give you a rough price, and could probably also quote the cost for running the water line.

The power company will give you the price for running electric, because you'll want the transformer located near the shop. Ours cost $7.50 per foot, and they installed phone and cable in the same trench.

You could clear the trees with a chainsaw, but then you'll have to dig out the stumps. It's easier to just push them over with a bulldozer. A gravel driveway costs about $1 per sq ft for material and goes up from there, depending on what kind of stone you use. Our asphalt driveway was put over the existing gravel, and it was about $2.50 per sq ft, but YMMV.

 

[HoosierMark]

Whatever you do, gear it for resale at this point. Many a dream starts and then is changed due to job transfer, health etc. So plan it for your needs but keep in mind resale. I appraised a great barn where the guy built the pole barn and framed in an area for his apartment. He used painted plywood screwed on the interior walls and easily removed later. He framed in a large garage door and other openings with the intent they could be removed. His apartment was to be his workshop later. Make sure when you install your septic it is designed for the future house and that it will easily attach to your house. But do not be surprised if the health dept still makes you put a new one in when you build later.

 

[RickP]

For garage and apartment designs, I've always liked this architect:
www.mascord.com

If you really want to tempt your GF, check out Plan 5016B (The Eastman)

But paying the cost to build it is an entirely different story:

 

[bczygan]

Has anyone started building out there yet? Developers often sell a dream and not much more. Step back and think this through. In the end you will always be better off buying something already built even if you have to rework it. Just needs good bones, but that's the subject for another thread.

You can't live on a cloud.

^^^This times 100^^^

What is your budget?

If you want to maximize your money, right now buying existing properties is the best way to go.

But if you have enough money for this project, and the most efficient use of your money is not an issue, then by all means, go ahead.

Many times there is no reasonable way to turn a particular dream into reality.

A possible dream beats an unattainable one, in my book.

It's good that you are asking questions. Ask lots of them. Take your time. There are a thousand great pieces of property out there.

Bill

 

[Jim B]

You might want to make sure you can build the smaller structure before building the house. I have 18 acres of dirt and trees and the county stopped letting people in our area build garages and granny units before building the main house because folks built the granny's and never got around to building a house.

 

[NTBorer]

I wish you luck - my parents did that when I was 6~11. Cleared a lot, built an 800 sqft garage (with the doors framed in and insulated) and we lived in that for 2 years while we built the house.

You're gonna need a tractor, saws, trailer, truck, and most importantly - Help. It's a huge amount of work, but overall 24 years later I would say it was worth it.

The water and elec costs shouldn't be bad if they are at the road, just the cost of wire/pipe/trench/labor to get it to the build site. Septic may be interesting - I know nothing of NY soil.

Driveway - again, depends on how far in you are building. Get a box blade for the tractor you're gonna buy and drag your own road. Then cover with rock or asphault.

Assuming you are willing to spend your weekends for the next few months/years working the land it looks like you will end up with a nice place.

Tyson

I've got the saw, tractor (8N - hauled many a log), truck, trailer and time. And retired parents . The septic scares me a bit at this point.

Has anyone started building out there yet? Developers often sell a dream and not much more. Step back and think this through. In the end you will always be better off buying something already built even if you have to rework it. Just needs good bones, but that's the subject for another thread.

You can't live on a cloud.

This is what I keep hearing. I'll of course be spending more than I can get out of it. But. It really is the perfect location, and I can't afford to buy a like property with house at this point. It's in the same neighborhood as some 500-900k houses...... I think the only way I can make it onto the land is if I go slow and develop myself.

That looks like a beautiful property - I hope you end up getting it! We built our home on a similar lot, so I can give you my experience. The first thing is the perc test, because that will determine the house site. Check with the local health dept, because sometimes the tests can only be done in the spring. Size the septic field for the number of bedrooms you plan for the house. A local septic installer should be able to give you a rough price, and could probably also quote the cost for running the water line.

The power company will give you the price for running electric, because you'll want the transformer located near the shop. Ours cost $7.50 per foot, and they installed phone and cable in the same trench.

You could clear the trees with a chainsaw, but then you'll have to dig out the stumps. It's easier to just push them over with a bulldozer. A gravel driveway costs about $1 per sq ft for material and goes up from there, depending on what kind of stone you use. Our asphalt driveway was put over the existing gravel, and it was about $2.50 per sq ft, but YMMV.

Thanks for the cost ideas. I'll look at the surveys and come up with some rough estimates. I hope I can get these answers without owning the property too..... I'm trying to decide if I can make it work before I put down an offer.

Whatever you do, gear it for resale at this point. Many a dream starts and then is changed due to job transfer, health etc. So plan it for your needs but keep in mind resale. I appraised a great barn where the guy built the pole barn and framed in an area for his apartment. He used painted plywood screwed on the interior walls and easily removed later. He framed in a large garage door and other openings with the intent they could be removed. His apartment was to be his workshop later. Make sure when you install your septic it is designed for the future house and that it will easily attach to your house. But do not be surprised if the health dept still makes you put a new one in when you build later.

They'd make me put in a new one?? I'd have it sized correctly for the future house and shop combined..... Can you expand on this?

^^^This times 100^^^

What is your budget?


Many times there is no possible way to turn a dream into reality.

Point taken. I'm trying to give this opportunity the diligence it deserves. I really appreciate the cautionary words. I'd like to do the shop / apartment for less than 100k, livable and legal. I'll do the excavating and access drive. Is this anywhere near reasonable?

 

[Zrexxer]

The water and elec costs shouldn't be bad if they are at the road

Ha, this is a dangerous statement. You really need to check with YOUR utility providers to find out what it will cost, not somebody on the internet in another state who says "it shouldn't be bad."

It shouldn't be bad, but it often can be. I looked at a property a few years ago served by a rural water cooperative, and the water was at the property, same side of the road, and the tap had already been made and the service line was run up to the property line. The Co-op wanted $5,000 just to set the meter and establish service.

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

Water at the road? HAHAHA. Could be 2000 feet down, like in well. Zoning may not let you build what you want before you build your house because many peoples plans don't get all the way to building the house.

PS I'm on my build my 4th house, first one was a 3 acre parcel with no improvements.

 

[PCO6]

I'm a retired Land Use Planner and Developer. No doubt municipal law differs between jurisdictions and certainly between Canada and the U.S. but the principles are generally the same.

Your first step is to determine what planning documents govern the land. If it is a lot of record and designated in the Official Plan for residential or agricultural use you should be OK to develop it for a single residential dwelling with related uses.(garage, barn, etc.). There are designations that would prohibit development - open space, environmental, flood land, etc. You can get this information from the Town's Planning Department. If you don't want to approach them a local planning consultant can get you the information you need with a couple of hours of billable time.

Others above have commented on the development and servicing of the property. Don't under estimate the approval requirements and process. It can be exhausting.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Your first step is to determine what planning documents govern the land. If it is a lot of record and designated in the Official Plan for residential or agricultural use you should be OK to develop it for a single residential dwelling with related uses.(garage, barn, etc.). There are designations that would prohibit development - open space, environmental, flood land, etc. You can get this information from the Town's Planning Department. If you don't want to approach them a local planning consultant can get you the information you need with a couple of hours of billable time.

What he said !

In MI, the first thing you need to do is determine if any part of it is a "wet land". If it is your screwed, because the state will typically not let you do any development.

Development/building rules very greatly depending on where you are. The city I live in says that the minimum "buildable" lot is 1/2 acre. 90% of the homes in the city are on less than 1/2 acre, but you still have to go through the process of applying for an exception. Also, the city says you must build a house first. There are rules as to the size of the garage compared to the size of the house, the height of a garage, etc., etc.

Hills are always and issue in development. You don't want to build at a bottom of a hill because you will always have issues with water coming down. You can terrace a hill, but that is $$$ and you have to build a really good retaining wall and where the uphill water will go. You are not allow to divert water on to a neighbors property.

Be careful who has authority over septic/perk test. I had a friend buy a lot, get pass the perk built could not get the sptic permit because a different authority would not pass it. Most place require you to have a "backup" field site.

Does the site have access to natural gas ? Propane and heating oil are not realistic options any more although heat pumps are.

 

[NTBorer]

Ha, this is a dangerous statement. You really need to check with YOUR utility providers to find out what it will cost, not somebody on the internet in another state who says "it shouldn't be bad."

It shouldn't be bad, but it often can be. I looked at a property a few years ago served by a rural water cooperative, and the water was at the property, same side of the road, and the tap had already been made and the service line was run up to the property line. The Co-op wanted $5,000 just to set the meter and establish service.

Water at the road? HAHAHA. Could be 2000 feet down, like in well. Zoning may not let you build what you want before you build your house because many peoples plans don't get all the way to building the house.

PS I'm on my build my 4th house, first one was a 3 acre parcel with no improvements.

The house will be 4-500 feet back from the road. Vertical rise is another thing. I don't have that info.

I'm a retired Land Use Planner and Developer. No doubt municipal law differs between jurisdictions and certainly between Canada and the U.S. but the principles are generally the same.

Your first step is to determine what planning documents govern the land. If it is a lot of record and designated in the Official Plan for residential or agricultural use you should be OK to develop it for a single residential dwelling with related uses.(garage, barn, etc.). There are designations that would prohibit development - open space, environmental, flood land, etc. You can get this information from the Town's Planning Department. If you don't want to approach them a local planning consultant can get you the information you need with a couple of hours of billable time.

Others above have commented on the development and servicing of the property. Don't under estimate the approval requirements and process. It can be exhausting.

I just spoke with the electric company and am waiting for a call back from the water authority. The electric company says I just need to get the wires run from the road transformer to the house, then get them inspected, then they will turn on service and install the meter. No charge. So, are there any estimates out there for trenching and running service? Can I do it myself? (I'm pretty handy, Engineer by trade) What will it cost to do it myself and then have it professionally inspected?

At this point, I'm most worried about the neighbors and town letting me have my small structure years before the big one.

Thanks for all the replies so far!




EDIT:

What he said !

In MI, the first thing you need to do is determine if any part of it is a "wet land". If it is your screwed, because the state will typically not let you do any development.

Development/building rules very greatly depending on where you are. The city I live in says that the minimum "buildable" lot is 1/2 acre. 90% of the homes in the city are on less than 1/2 acre, but you still have to go through the process of applying for an exception. Also, the city says you must build a house first. There are rules as to the size of the garage compared to the size of the house, the height of a garage, etc., etc.

Hills are always and issue in development. You don't want to build at a bottom of a hill because you will always have issues with water coming down. You can terrace a hill, but that is $$$ and you have to build a really good retaining wall and where the uphill water will go. You are not allow to divert water on to a neighbors property.

Be careful who has authority over septic/perk test. I had a friend buy a lot, get pass the perk built could not get the sptic permit because a different authority would not pass it. Most place require you to have a "backup" field site.

Does the site have access to natural gas ? Propane and heating oil are not realistic options any more although heat pumps are.

Electric and water service only to the house. The electric is really cheap, most in this area heat with it. My first building (garage) will be a house!! So, as long as I can convince them that it's okay to have a 5 car, 1 bedroom.......It should work? I'll call the town zoning today.

 

[1jjpop]

A 15 % grade is a rise 15' in 100' & 6% grade is a rise of 6' in a 100' [ pretty rough ground] maybe will work...

 

[nolimits76]

In regards to your roads, you will need to grade. This will likely involve cut & fill operations. The idea is to cut the high spots and re-use the soil in the low spots (assuming soil is good). Inevitably, it rarely works out perfect.

So you may have to haul off/waste unused soil which is the cheaper problem. In this scenario, you dump the excess on your property somewhere (free) and pay for fuel/offroad haul to get it to that location. Alternatively, you pay a royalty fee (varies) to dump the soil on someone else's property. You still have fuel/haul to pay for, but know you typically have to pay for dump trucks vs offroad haul (equipment, etc).

If you need fill, now you need to find a borrow source. Local neighbors with good dirt selling at the lowest price is your target. We commonly pay $1 to $3 per cubic yard, depending on specifics and if their is only one source that saves us considerably on trucking and fuel costs. Haul rates will vary, but they are $75-90 per hour here for a 13cy load. Once you get the borrow on-site, you still have to use equipment and fuel to spread into place.

Depending what type of soil you have, will determine if you need reinforcement (geogrid), etc and what type of aggregates you need to place for your road. Most likely, a separation fabric (approx $1.00/sy for material) plus your aggregates. Aggregate material won't vary much and almost always you will come out ahead paying a few extra bucks for material from the closest local guy vs paying more for haul from a quarry further away. I'd target $8/ton for your aggregates. Haul will vary. Somewhere close might be as low as $4/ton but $8-10/ton is probably more on average. High would be in the $15+/ton range.

If you don't know, you calculate cubic yards (cy) by doing the following in FEET:

width x length x depth / 27 = cubic yards

So if you're road is 16' wide x 200' long and you need to cut 6" of dirt (on average) for your road, you would be looking at:

16' x 200' x 0.5' (always convert inches to feet) all divided by 27 = 59.26cy

Let's assume you are going to put 6" of aggregates back in for your road. Every aggregate has their own specific weight per ton. An exact measurement can be obtained from the quarry you decide to purchase from; however, the a general rule of thumb is 2 tons per cy. Sometimes 1.5 tons per cy for lighter materials.

To be safe, 59.26cy x 2 = 118.52 tons

 

[Barlow L]

make sure the land will perk first and foremost if no public sewer is available.

When I put a contract on this property, one of the conditions was to pass perk for an conventional rock drain field. which I paid to have done prior to closing.

Also take the plat to the local zoning official or what ever its called in your area, ask them what is allowed and more importantly, what isn't. Don't offer any info on what you plan to do until you know their language. Out here I can not have a "shop" larger than the SF of the primary structure but can have a "barn" or "stable" any size I want.

Wetlands can be a huge PITA. Know what the buffer limits are if RPA areas are present.
I have RPA buffers on both sides of my property and in the rear, running creek.

Good luck to you. Just be well informed before jumping in head first, it will save some headaches.

 

[nolimits76]

In regards to septic systems, I'm not sure how it works in NY but in OK we can install an aerobic treatment system if the land doesn't perk. I've had 2 houses with these systems and they work good as long as you get a big enough turd (solids) tank and you constantly feed it the chlorine tablets.

The system is pretty simple. You have a turd collector tank where pure solids collect. An aeration tank where everything else goes and gets moved around, which then uses chlorine to clarify the water. Finally, the clean water goes to a holding tank that fills up and shoots out to sprinklers in your yard. When the process is all done, supposedly it's clean enough to drink. I won't drink it, but I will provide a cup for the manufacturer if they want to prove it. I do know it doesn't smell and it looks clean. Also, grass growth is excellent in these frequently watered areas.

Funny story, we had a bunch of people over for a backyard BBQ and the sprinklers went off. The kids went crazy playing in the water. As soon as I came out and saw what was happening I advised what was really happening. All the adults got a good laugh.

FYI, the aerobic systems are more expensive typically. Around here, there is about a 30-40% premium. Overall, in the cost of a house, that means approximately $2,000 vs $3,000 for an average sized (2,000sf +/-) home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobic_treatment_system

 

[NTBorer]

You all have been so great. My potential costs are starting to take shape.
I'm trying to make my amounts very conservative, let me know if anything looks wrong.

Driveway materials 300 ton x $5 = $1,500
(uncle owns several gravel pits)
Driveway labor / rental = $$$???
(I own a 40hp 2wd Ford 8N, what else should I rent and how much?)
Septic system = $4,000.
(I'll get a quote)
Electric = $$$???
(How much to run 120V 200A service ~500 feet?)
Water = $$$???
(How much to run 2" water line ~500 feet?)

Can I put up a 4-5 car 1 bedroom with wood siding for less than 100k?

 

[nolimits76]

Electric and water can be a can of worms, or it can be easy. Just depends on local conditions and codes, coupled with distances and depths you are going.

Water company will likely require you buy a tap from them. One of the houses I built, the tap was $750 but I could have chose a standard tap or a high pressure tap that allowed for a yard irrigation system. Once you choose, you can't "upgrade". It's another $750 if you need the high pressure unit, and then you have an extra tap. That doesn't include install, trenching, lines, etc. That's just the tap, but I point this out because you would be smart to talk with them and understand their processes.

Codes will determine depth of lines, type of conduits, etc. Around here electric is 3' deep minimum. If my land is flat, has no rocks and I do the minimum 3' depth, it will be cheaper to trench that line than a guy that lives on a rocky slope. Rock excavation can be a disaster to your budget. This is where careful contract management and negotiation come into play mixed with some soil exploration and understanding. You don't want to be getting hit for change order after change order. Also, keep in mind, if you ripping out big rocks, you are over excavating to a degree and will need fill material to replace the rocks.

Are you planning to self-perform or subcontract this work? Many times codes require MEP work to completed by license and insured professionals, so don't just assume you can do it yourself.

Even for work you might intend to self-perform, it might be worth talking to a contractor or two. Many times they know better than you the codes and risk involved. If you are projecting $500 to do a job and others are $8,000 there is probably more to it than just $7,500 of profit.

 

[banjo2733]

"I'll do the excavating and access drive. Is this anywhere near reasonable?"

Not with a Ford 8N in my opinion, near impossible to excavate with one and if you d get the bucket full of dirt and rocks REAL hard to steer and /or lift!

I suggest you look into renting a Skid Steer with track and at least 50 H.P.

I had a Cat 933 before I retired, moved a lot of dirt, made a lot of holes with it and i think the 933 is near the bottom end of excavating machines.

I dug a basement once with my Case 1845C Skid Steer and that was not a lot of fun.

YMMV, just my opinion after 30 years of pulling levers and wearing out most of my Joints!!!

Good luck, but think it all through first, you won't believe all the money you are going to spend on tools to make this happen.

 

[UpstateNY]

NT,

Churchville here, where is the property located. No worries, I'm not interested in buyinh such a lot. Just curious since I know the area.

I'm going to guess the Fairport area.

 

[NTBorer]

Electric and water can be a can of worms, or it can be easy. Just depends on local conditions and codes, coupled with distances and depths you are going.

Water company will likely require you buy a tap from them. One of the houses I built, the tap was $750 but I could have chose a standard tap or a high pressure tap that allowed for a yard irrigation system. Once you choose, you can't "upgrade". It's another $750 if you need the high pressure unit, and then you have an extra tap. That doesn't include install, trenching, lines, etc. That's just the tap, but I point this out because you would be smart to talk with them and understand their processes.

Codes will determine depth of lines, type of conduits, etc. Around here electric is 3' deep minimum. If my land is flat, has no rocks and I do the minimum 3' depth, it will be cheaper to trench that line than a guy that lives on a rocky slope. Rock excavation can be a disaster to your budget. This is where careful contract management and negotiation come into play mixed with some soil exploration and understanding. You don't want to be getting hit for change order after change order. Also, keep in mind, if you ripping out big rocks, you are over excavating to a degree and will need fill material to replace the rocks.

Are you planning to self-perform or subcontract this work? Many times codes require MEP work to completed by license and insured professionals, so don't just assume you can do it yourself.

Even for work you might intend to self-perform, it might be worth talking to a contractor or two. Many times they know better than you the codes and risk involved. If you are projecting $500 to do a job and others are $8,000 there is probably more to it than just $7,500 of profit.

Now I have spoken to both the water and the electric company. They both say they want inspected lines run to the house, then they will provide meters and hook-up at no charge.

"I'll do the excavating and access drive. Is this anywhere near reasonable?"

Not with a Ford 8N in my opinion, near impossible to excavate with one and if you d get the bucket full of dirt and rocks REAL hard to steer and /or lift!

I suggest you look into renting a Skid Steer with track and at least 50 H.P.

I had a Cat 933 before I retired, moved a lot of dirt, made a lot of holes with it and i think the 933 is near the bottom end of excavating machines.

I dug a basement once with my Case 1845C Skid Steer and that was not a lot of fun.

YMMV, just my opinion after 30 years of pulling levers and wearing out most of my Joints!!!

Good luck, but think it all through first, you won't believe all the money you are going to spend on tools to make this happen.

I'll get the 8N on the property, if only for dragging around a trailer full of fire wood. I have access to a lot of equipment, but it's all an hour away. (family farm) If I need a skid-steer, I'll get one. Although I'm not positive I'd be able to keep it there. I might need to truck it back and forth for each job. I guess I should add some money to the budget for rental of more expensive machinery. Dozer, Back hoe?

 

[nolimits76]

You all have been so great. My potential costs are starting to take shape.
I'm trying to make my amounts very conservative, let me know if anything looks wrong.

Driveway materials 300 ton x $5 = $1,500
(uncle owns several gravel pits)
Driveway labor / rental = $$$???
(I own a 40hp 2wd Ford 8N, what else should I rent and how much?)
Septic system = $4,000.
(I'll get a quote)
Electric = $$$???
(How much to run 120V 200A service ~500 feet?)
Water = $$$???
(How much to run 2" water line ~500 feet?)

Can I put up a 4-5 car 1 bedroom with wood siding for less than 100k?

Your costs are atypical because of the distance runs and lot considerations. Until you provide a lot more detailed data and/or a site visit is done, I think it's a pure guess at this point.

However, you can throw $100k at most projects and get some work done. Will it be stick built and have all the perks you want? I don't know. There isn't enough detail to determine that. But you can probably accomplish some version of your dream for that money.

 

[pcmeiners]

Think you would be better off if you first get the zoning regulations, thoroughly understand them, then talk to an Architect. In my area, the only way to guarantee future builds ( beyond you initial garage) or additions, is to at least get the complete plans (garage and addition home) Ok-ed by the building department and have the future foundations poured. In my area if this is not done and zoning restrictions change, you out of luck. Architects in the area understand the zoning, plus your other land issues, so it would be well worth paying for an hourly consultation fee to clear up many of your questions; but you should still understand the area's zoning first. In NYC the regs are lengthy, intimidating at first glance as there are many details, but easy enough to understand.

 

[kd3pc]

It really is the perfect location, and I can't afford to buy a like property with house at this point. It's in the same neighborhood as some 500-900k houses......

If it is a neighborhood of $500-900K homes, your first thing is to see what deed restrictions of covenants are attached to the land.

Most of those neighborhoods have a restriction that all homes must be.....
2500 sq ft of finished living space
garages must be (or not) attached and of the same finish as the home.
garage doors must be closed at all times, except when enter or leave
and even more absurd things mandated
etc etc

In most places I have lived in the past 20 years, plus trying to build two homes .....the AHJ will NOT allow building a garage with living space, First....if at all. Until the entire home, septic, well, health dept, and permits are in place and they will want to inspect each step, and several times during the build process.

You may want to get some legal help or experienced builder help from someone in your area....well worth the $200-300 for a couple of hours of their time.

best of luck

 

[NTBorer]

Thanks. I'll call the zoning department as soon as I get finished typing. Who should I get out to the property? An architect? A contractor?

 

[JPrato]

As mentioned the perk test is important but what you might want to do is put together a rough site plan for the property. I did what you are thinking of 15 years ago in Victor, NY. They had restrictions on the grade of the driveway. It was a challenge to layout the driveway. That influenced the house location which influenced grading on the property and where I could put a septic system. With a rough site plan you could schedule a meeting with the town building inspector and talk about what you want to do. They are very helpful where I live and will guide you. Before you can build you will need an approved site plan. If what you want to do is at all dicey with the town you might want to rethink your plan or find another site. The site plan will show the driveway, house/outbuilding layout and septic field. Sounds like you have town water at the road so you wouldn't have to worry about well placement. How far back from the road would you build. Electric and water lines get pricey if you go far. Gravel for the driveway can add up too. You'd be surprised how many tons of rocks and what it will cost for a 100' of driveway.

 

[banjo2733]

NT,
Slow down!
There is a lot of good advice given here already, I think you mentioned that you are an Engineer and I'm assuming you don't work for the Railroad, start a spread sheet, go back and enter all of the suggestions thus far, then evaluate and prioritize.

Who to talk to first?

How about the Realtor I assume you are working with, if they can't help you with basic questions regarding the area, possible HOA codicils, coding, contractors, etc. you have the wrong Realtor.

Find out what you can or can't do, THEN figure out how to do it.

From the Plat Map it looks like the lots on either side of #11 have notations from the 80,s and 90,s, why is this one still there?

Again, good luck, but start at the beginning, not the middle, Excel is your friend!

 

[JPrato]

You all have been so great. My potential costs are starting to take shape.
I'm trying to make my amounts very conservative, let me know if anything looks wrong.

Driveway materials 300 ton x $5 = $1,500
(uncle owns several gravel pits)
Driveway labor / rental = $$$???
(I own a 40hp 2wd Ford 8N, what else should I rent and how much?)
Septic system = $4,000.
(I'll get a quote)
Electric = $$$???
(How much to run 120V 200A service ~500 feet?)
Water = $$$???
(How much to run 2" water line ~500 feet?)

Can I put up a 4-5 car 1 bedroom with wood siding for less than 100k?

I've got an 8n too. Good for skidding trees, simple grading with loose materials, hauling stuff around with a wagon and that's about it.

Excavation and grading can add up. I just put in a 350' x 10' drive, 52'x45' pad for a garage, water and electric trenches (about 200') that ran me about $14-15k

1" water line might be ok instead of 2". You will need a meter pit and meter about $800

 

[TommyK]

Thanks. I'll call the zoning department as soon as I get finished typing. Who should I get out to the property? An architect? A contractor?

A civil engineer/site planner/LS who is familiar with local code requirements and geology. You will need a site plan to move forward with the approving authorities. It should show the future structure to be built.

Rock, if it is present will be one of your more expensive hurdles to overcome.

 

[nolimits76]

Now I have spoken to both the water and the electric company. They both say they want inspected lines run to the house, then they will provide meters and hook-up at no charge.

It's good to get free items, but I think in your case the meters are the cheap part. Running 4-500' of lines will be expensive. The fact they want them inspected tells me there are some sort of code they want enforced.

The code could be something simple -- 4" PVC conduit, 3' minimum depth. It could be more complex.

Dreaming and calculating costs can be fun, but as others have stressed already, you really need to do the following:

1. Find out (to the best of your ability) why no one has purchased the lines since the 80's or 90's. I've seen it both ways. Sometimes because the lot has too many restrictions, unfavorable building lines, flood zones, impractical to build on (too much slope), etc. Other times I've seen where for whatever reason a neighborhood built out all but a lot or two and there is no obvious reason -- it just got unpopular. Maybe it went into a decline sometime in the past, so it's no longer a hot spot? Either way, IMO, that is a major red flag that would sway my decision.

2. You need to find out if there are any neighborhood restrictions/covenants. They can be ****** brutal on a person. While some are laid back and their priorities seem focused on the entryway landscape and mowing, they almost always (ALWAYS!) include something about detached buildings. They must match, they aren't allowed, etc.

3. You need to check flood plains, environmental hazards, etc. Odd ball stuff that most people don't think apply to them. Because of #1, in my mind this becomes more worrisome because these are the type of reasons maybe it didn't sell years ago.

4. Before you can build, or really put together a plan you have to know the rules by which to play. This comes from your local governing code authority (city, county and/or state, and they may refer back to national codes for some items). This is where you are going to find out about the permit process, if you licensed electricians, plumbers, etc are required.

5. I think you need to have a gut check. You are worried about building a structure you want for $100k, but later state homes are $500k+ in the area. Let's say you save 20% ($100k) by self performing -- can you still dump $400k into this place? Not busting your balls, but being realistic.

Don't underestimate #1 through #4. Use your realtor and local code authorities to gather as much info as you can. Don't be ashamed to seek help from an architect/engineer to help you compile plans and get you through the permit process. Granted, I work on the commercial side of things, but that is a huge responsibility and A/E's spend lots of time and effort working to ensure things are compliant. On-site, it's frustrating to have a contractor do something you believe is within code and then a city inspector come along and "interpret" the code differently. Like it or not, it happens. I've wanted to bury a few inspectors but you don't because you know it will only make the resolve that much harder in the end. Again, no shame in seeking help. But again, there are costs involved for professionals to help.

But realistically, if my end game is a $500k+ home, the cost of an A/E to help is small beans in comparison.

 

[justanengineer]

1. Deed restrictions/zoning/legal issues - Youre looking at 5 acres in an expensive area, thats not enough land to cover noise and those trees wont really screen much half the year. $500k+ properties usually have noise restrictions IME, meaning Pedro's mowing service cant even mow your dam lawn except between 9-11 and only on Tuesdays (seriously), much less have you and "free" labor spend time dinking about with equipment cutting roads, moving trees, and building a garage. The folks that live in those areas also tend to have VERY good lawyers, so be prepared to buy the land and not be able to build anything despite what the current local government says now, the neighbors will change the rules as appropriate (again, very seriously) if the least lil thing gets their ******* in a bunch, and those folks arent likely to take too kindly to folks who dont fit their cookie cutter.

Frankly, I'd have a GOOD lawyer on stand-by throughout.

2. Perk test - Pretty simple. Pay to play, get it done early in the process.

3. Cutting a road and other dirt work - Id plan to have a D6 sized dozer in there for a few weeks and be ready to consume a small mountain of gravel filling in problem areas. A smaller machine could cut it, but realistically youre ******* away money in the process and losing productivity/efficiency. Your 8N is a cute lil toy, but unless youre hauling firewood, dont waste the gas.

4. Electric - Dig a few holes, stick a few poles. The utility will hang a pot and make it hot! Going underground is possible, but realistically, you need to save money and time.

5. Water and septic - Have a well dug and septic installed. You really dont want to deal with 500' of water and sewer line that go up/down hill, and yes, theyre your responsibility ($$$) forever.

JMHO, but based off your answers, Id suggest stepping back and re-evaluating your ability to actually do anything major on this project yourself beyond the basic plumbing/hvac/electric/drywall/etc in the garage itself. Its great if you have a supportive experienced family, but there comes a point where they cannot help or loan money and equipment and you have to do it yourself bc work has to happen, it will happen sooner rather than later. Once construction starts, much of it cannot stop or you go backwards. If its going to cost $100k, you need $100k NOW, not later, and very few people can or will bail you out of that, even family. There is also a point where hiring a framed structure, solid roads, and foundations built are well worth it and actually the cheaper solution. Once youre done discussing costs with the pros in your area, take your best cost and time estimates and DOUBLE both for things hired out, TRIPLE for DIY. Using the new numbers, consider whether or not that property is really worth risking your financial future on, $100k+ is a difficult hole to dig out of and youre in a pretty lousy area economically.

FWIW, the money made by buying the smaller/cheaper wreck of a starter home that Im in now and fully renovating it myself is going to pay for my dream house much faster than I could have afforded to pay it off otherwise, but admittedly, Ive done a few full house renos before.

 

[bczygan]

You don't have the land, which means you need to do this fairly quickly, in case the deal goes away.

Basically, you need to plan and estimate the entire project, quickly, but fairly accurately. If you have experience doing this, it shouldn't be too hard. If not, it will take time or money to hire someone to get an accurate picture.

Also, consider that most places give you a construction permit good for 6 months, extendable to a year. Can you do the project out of pocket by then?

Some will let you live on site in a trailer during construction, some won't.

Are you getting a loan? How much cash on hand?

BTW, what is the cost of the land? And do you want that to be included in the 100K?
What is your construction experience? Do you expect to be the general contractor? What trades are you going to do to cut expenses and get sweat equity?

From what I can read between the lines, it may be time to step back, get a lot more knowledge and a much more detailed plan in place, and THEN go looking for the right property.

Tell us more about what you can do and what you need others to do.

 

[bczygan]

BTW, Most jurisdictions require an 800SF dwelling minimum, with certain sizes for all the rooms and no 1 bedrooms allowed.

What is the location and governing authority for zoning? What is the zoning classification?

 

[Cudajas]

sounds like an interesting project!

I would suggest buying a nice used skid steer as opposed to renting it. Could get costly if this is a long term project.

If you maintain it right you can resell it when you are done.

Just out of curiosity, what does a plot of land that sized go for?

Jason

 

[805gregg]

You really want to live where the winters could be like this year or worse every year?

 

[eljefino]

How come an out of work excavating company hasn't come in and levelled out a driveway, dug a well, and started a septic and foundation?

They have all the gear and employee/owner just sitting there not making money. Why not flip a property?

My FIL is a carpenter and knows plumbers, electricians, mechanics, etc. My plumber is a landlord because, why not, he knows people in the trade.

What do you bring to the table?

Does the family farm have an off season where the ground isn't frozen? Can you borrow the gear mid-summer while everything is just hanging out growing?