Dial indicator with magnetic base combo.

[Cummins_Tech]

Just as the title states, what are some good, accurate, reliable brands? Would be best if I could get both as a package deal, preferably. Here lately I've found myself needing to check crankshaft end play and PTV clearance enough to where borrowing one is no longer an option, i.e. 3 times rule, so it's time to buy my own.

Idk what these typically go for, so I don't even know what my budget would be.

Thank you.


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[BuffettFan]

MSC would be a good place to start. They carry everything from cheap imports to Starrett with everything in between including base/indicator combos.
Their house brand, SPI, is reliable. Fowler is also a decent mid priced option.
Most of my personal measuring equipment is Mitutoyo.
I would guess for less than $100, you could get a very decent combo.

 

[royesses]

Here's a up to 40% off code for MSC house brands SPI is a house brand.
SAVE40E

 

[Fcvapor05]

How good do you need your dial indicator to be?

Budget:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B5HQJHK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Better:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007XZIT5I/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Best:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002K07CTK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

+

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002SG7PJI/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Cummins_Tech]

Definitely not aircraft grade or anything like that, but needs to be accurate down to .001 at the very least. I'm going to guess that's not a very high bar though.


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[Cummins_Tech]

Here's a up to 40% off code for MSC house brands SPI is a house brand.
SAVE40E

MSC would be a good place to start. They carry everything from cheap imports to Starrett with everything in between including base/indicator combos.

Their house brand, SPI, is reliable. Fowler is also a decent mid priced option.

Most of my personal measuring equipment is Mitutoyo.

I would guess for less than $100, you could get a very decent combo.

Thanks guys, that helps out a ton.


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[rlitman]

How good do you need your dial indicator to be?

Budget:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B5HQJHK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Better:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007XZIT5I/?tag=atomicindus08-20
...

That budget model looks no better than the $20 setup I have from HF.

https://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-travel-machinists-dial-indicator-623.html
+
https://www.harborfreight.com/multipositional-magnetic-base-with-fine-adjustment-5645.html

And the HF magnetic base has an elbow in the upper arm that actually makes it superior.

The "better" model uses the same cheap Chinese base as the Fowler (which is a step DOWN from the HF base), though with a much better indicator.

FWIW though, those Chinese bases aren't half bad, and the indicators are relatively useful, though I would say that for the two uses desired by the OP, I'd be reaching for something better than my $10 dial indicator that I use to verify car rim runout. The Chinese base will work ok, though a better base has better holding power, and a stronger arm.

For the OP's purposes, I'd be using one of these that I have:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starrett-656-617-0001-400-Range-Machinist-Dial-Indicator-Tool-/182500600618

But I will say that buying a used indicator is a tricky business. One that I would not recommend doing online.

Oh, and I HATE digital indicators. Digital calipers are nice, because it is super easy to switch from SAE to Metric. But to me, the whole point of using a dial indicator is to visualize the movement in an analog manner.

 

[Cummins_Tech]

Set my budget at $100~
Used the promo, figured what the hell, and got another set of calipers just for the heck of it, and still within my price range.

What do y'all think? Should I go ahead and order, or perhaps find something else.




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[Cummins_Tech]

That budget model looks no better than the $20 setup I have from HF.

https://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-travel-machinists-dial-indicator-623.html
+
https://www.harborfreight.com/multipositional-magnetic-base-with-fine-adjustment-5645.html

And the HF magnetic base has an elbow in the upper arm that actually makes it superior.

The "better" model uses the same cheap Chinese base as the Fowler (which is a step DOWN from the HF base), though with a much better indicator.

FWIW though, those Chinese bases aren't half bad, and the indicators are relatively useful, though I would say that for the two uses desired by the OP, I'd be reaching for something better than my $10 dial indicator that I use to verify car rim runout. The Chinese base will work ok, though a better base has better holding power, and a stronger arm.

For the OP's purposes, I'd be using one of these that I have:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starrett-656-617-0001-400-Range-Machinist-Dial-Indicator-Tool-/182500600618

But I will say that buying a used indicator is a tricky business. One that I would not recommend doing online.

Oh, and I HATE digital indicators. Digital calipers are nice, because it is super easy to switch from SAE to Metric. But to me, the whole point of using a dial indicator is to visualize the movement in an analog manner.

I will give that unit a look as well, thank you.


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[jonesg]

the whole point of using a dial indicator is to visualize the movement in an analog manner.

I only need to verify if theres a lot, little or acceptable deflection.
It "indicates" , its not a last word measuring instrument.

 

[Fcvapor05]

You won't find me buying precision measurement tools from harbor freight or from ebay, ever.

The indicator is what matters. Bases are much less important, though Noga bases are king if you can handle the coin. I'd also disagree that 4-joint bases are superior. Try measuring something in the tenths range with a test indicator with that base... good luck.

OP, what really matters is the indicator. Personally, I'd avoid buying from MSC. They specialize in industrial tools for giant companies who care more about lead times than price. Their house brand metrology tools are all rebranded bargain China import stuff. You'd be better off with Harbor Freight indicators- you're getting the same quality for less money. Think about why MSC can offer 40% discounts without blinking- their markup on those items is 100% or more.

Definitely not aircraft grade or anything like that, but needs to be accurate down to .001 at the very least. I'm going to guess that's not a very high bar though.

'accurate down to .001"'... what does that mean to you?

If what you mean is that is must have .001" graduations, then just about any indicator will do.

If what you mean is that the indicator must actually reliably and repeatably tell you that .002" is actually .002", you're putting yourself into a class of good quality indicators at minimum.

Cheap indicators are acceptably good for comparative measurements, but if you want true accuracy in your metrology gear you have to spend the money.

 

[Cummins_Tech]

You won't find me buying precision measurement tools from harbor freight or from ebay, ever.



The indicator is what matters. Bases are much less important, though Noga bases are king if you can handle the coin. I'd also disagree that 4-joint bases are superior. Try measuring something in the tenths range with a test indicator with that base... good luck.



OP, what really matters is the indicator. Personally, I'd avoid buying from MSC. They specialize in industrial tools for giant companies who care more about lead times than price. Their house brand metrology tools are all rebranded bargain China import stuff. You'd be better off with Harbor Freight indicators- you're getting the same quality for less money. Think about why MSC can offer 40% discounts without blinking- their markup on those items is 100% or more.







'accurate down to .001"'... what does that mean to you?



If what you mean is that is must have .001" graduations, then just about any indicator will do.



If what you mean is that the indicator must actually reliably and repeatably tell you that .002" is actually .002", you're putting yourself into a class of good quality indicators at minimum.



Cheap indicators are acceptably good for comparative measurements, but if you want true accuracy in your metrology gear you have to spend the money.

I'm open to suggestions then, because what you described is what I need. At times, $20,000 is riding on that .001 of accuracy, and if I get a false reading, $200,000 could very well be on the line.


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[Cummins_Tech]

Not to mention someone's life. Halliburton lost an operator due to a connecting rod failure caused from premature bearing failure (spun). Still pending investigation, but if the crank was checked off as good, when It wasn't... heads will surely roll. I don't need that on my conscience.


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[BuffettFan]

IMO, your choices from MSC look like they will do what you are looking for.
And if the 40% off code gets you any more discount, bonus!

 

[Fcvapor05]

I'm open to suggestions then, because what you described is what I need. At times, $20,000 is riding on that .001 of accuracy, and if I get a false reading, $200,000 could very well be on the line.


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Pick a budget and buy the best indicator you can get. If you can only sped $100, find the cheapest possible base and then spend every penny left over on a quality indicator from Starrett or Mitutoyo. Browne & Sharpe will be recommended by some people- personally I'm not a fan. They were elite-level quality from when they started until the 90s, but in my opinion they have dropped off in the last 10-15 years.

The 'best' combo that I listed above is the best stand you can get (NOGA bases smoke everyone else in terms of durability and ease of use. Compared to cheapo bases they are a dream to set up) and that indicator has markings at .0005" (half a thousandth) and a rated accuracy of .0008" (8/10th of a thousandth).

The cheapo indicators from Harbor Freight, Fowler, MSC, etc are marked in .001" increments but have no stated accuracy. Meaning that you don't know what the accuracy really is.

I see this all the time. Good indicators are hard to make, which means good indicators are expensive. There's just no way around it if you want to do quality high precision work.

One more word of advice- if you buy a quality indicator, it is NOT like every other hand tool in your box. The bases are no big deal, they can handle some abuse... but a good indicator is a precision tool. Don't drop them. Don't saturate them with chemicals. Don't take them apart to lubricate them. Do your best to not let them get oily and dusty. Treat them like you would a swiss watch and they will treat you well.

The best thing you can do to take care of your indicator is simply to keep the packaging it comes in- Starrett and Mitutoyo indicators come in very nice heavy cardboard boxes, with a cut foam insert that holds the indicator snugly. Any time the indicator isn't being used, it should be in that box being protected from drops and dirt and abuse.

Frankly, whoever let you borrow an indicator is a nice guy. My indicators are one of the few tools in my box that I absolutely will not loan out, ever. They're simply too expensive and too fragile for me to trust the next 200lb gorilla who didn't pay for them.

 

[rlitman]

You won't find me buying precision measurement tools from harbor freight or from ebay, ever.

The indicator is what matters. Bases are much less important, though Noga bases are king if you can handle the coin. I'd also disagree that 4-joint bases are superior. Try measuring something in the tenths range with a test indicator with that base... good luck.

OP, what really matters is the indicator. Personally, I'd avoid buying from MSC. They specialize in industrial tools for giant companies who care more about lead times than price. Their house brand metrology tools are all rebranded bargain China import stuff. You'd be better off with Harbor Freight indicators- you're getting the same quality for less money. Think about why MSC can offer 40% discounts without blinking- their markup on those items is 100% or more.

'accurate down to .001"'... what does that mean to you?

If what you mean is that is must have .001" graduations, then just about any indicator will do.

If what you mean is that the indicator must actually reliably and repeatably tell you that .002" is actually .002", you're putting yourself into a class of good quality indicators at minimum.

Cheap indicators are acceptably good for comparative measurements, but if you want true accuracy in your metrology gear you have to spend the money.

The advantage of the "4-joint base" as you call it is that it gives you Noga setup ease, without the price. It's easy to swing your indicator to the solid half of the arm when you need a stiffer connection (which you will often want to do, as that elbow does have quite a bit of lspring to it).

For my part, I've used a lot of bases, and the HF base is just as good as any other coming out of China at 4x the price. And if you have such a base, I suggest you pick up a $10 indicator to go with it anyway. That way, you have something to lend to someone. Because while I am particularly free with lending tools, certain things absolutely positively never get lent out. Dial indicators (and calipers) not made in China, chainsaws, my SpeedGlas, and any torque wrenches not from HF.

And that $10 indicator gets used from time to time. That's what I've got on my tire balancer, that tells me if a rim has an unacceptable amount of runout (or isn't mounted correctly on the balancer). It's also sufficient for checking parallelism between my tablesaw blade, slots and fence. And every time I use it, means less wear and tear on the good ones. But when I'm centering a part in a 4-jaw chuck, you can be damned sure I'm using a real gauge. I've got a box of indicators from Federal, Ames and Starrett for that work.

As you said, just about any tinker toy gauge will read to .001", but to actually trust it to be accurate to that level is another story.

...

One more word of advice- if you buy a quality indicator, it is NOT like every other hand tool in your box. The bases are no big deal, they can handle some abuse... but a good indicator is a precision tool. Don't drop them. Don't saturate them with chemicals. Don't take them apart to lubricate them. Do your best to not let them get oily and dusty. Treat them like you would a swiss watch and they will treat you well.

The best thing you can do to take care of your indicator is simply to keep the packaging it comes in- Starrett and Mitutoyo indicators come in very nice heavy cardboard boxes, with a cut foam insert that holds the indicator snugly. Any time the indicator isn't being used, it should be in that box being protected from drops and dirt and abuse.

Frankly, whoever let you borrow an indicator is a nice guy. My indicators are one of the few tools in my box that I absolutely will not loan out, ever. They're simply too expensive and too fragile for me to trust the next 200lb gorilla who didn't pay for them.

+1 Again, that's my biggest argument for owning a cheap indicator too. Hide the good one.

 

[Fcvapor05]

The advantage of the "4-joint base" as you call it is that it gives you Noga setup ease, without the price. It's easy to swing your indicator to the solid half of the arm when you need a stiffer connection (which you will often want to do, as that elbow does have quite a bit of lspring to it).

For my part, I've used a lot of bases, and the HF base is just as good as any other coming out of China at 4x the price. And if you have such a base, I suggest you pick up a $10 indicator to go with it anyway. That way, you have something to lend to someone. Because while I am particularly free with lending tools, certain things absolutely positively never get lent out. Dial indicators (and calipers) not made in China, chainsaws, my SpeedGlas, and any torque wrenches not from HF.

And that $10 indicator gets used from time to time. That's what I've got on my tire balancer, that tells me if a rim has an unacceptable amount of runout (or isn't mounted correctly on the balancer). It's also sufficient for checking parallelism between my tablesaw blade, slots and fence. And every time I use it, means less wear and tear on the good ones. But when I'm centering a part in a 4-jaw chuck, you can be damned sure I'm using a real gauge. I've got a box of indicators from Federal, Ames and Starrett for that work.

As you said, just about any tinker toy gauge will read to .001", but to actually trust it to be accurate to that level is another story.



+1 Again, that's my biggest argument for owning a cheap indicator too. Hide the good one.

I don't think we're far apart on this topic really.

If you can only have one indicator, make it a good one. Cheap indicators have a place, but it's not for work that you would deem critical.

 

[Cummins_Tech]

Thanks for your input guys. For the record, I may be a 230lb gorilla, but I have more respect for the tools that someone else pays for than my own, and I am very particular about how my tools are treated, lol. But I totally get where you're coming from, I have a few craftsman tools rolling around in a cardboard box at the bottom of my roll cart for that exact reason, but the guy that lets me borrow his knows I don't mess around.

I think I've settled on the noga and starrett units, now I just have to decide as to which ones.

I'm a buy once cry once guy, and if I have to go out of budget a bit, but have a tool that will last most of my career, and in the back of my mind know that when I checked the block, there's no questions about the numbers.


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[BuffettFan]

In my experience, you don't have to spend the $$ for Starrett to get the quality and reliability, BUT, you'll never second guess yourself as to should I have bought better?

 

[Marctrees]

Cummins sed.... "I'm open to suggestions then, because what you described is what I need. At times, $20,000 is riding on that .001 of accuracy, and if I get a false reading, $200,000 could very well be on the line."

If that is the case, get the best tools, the most accurate and reliable.

I cannot even imagine with that criteria considering imported Asian lower price items.

Apparently, we are WAY past home hobbyist here.

Why , at the level you explain above, are you looking to cut corners on your inspection tools????????????????????

Harbor Freight at this level of production?????????

Is somebody nuts?????????

Marc

 

[Cummins_Tech]

Hense why I came to you all for suggestions... obviously I didn't know what was needed, but now I have a much better idea.

But gee, you sure "caught me" trying to be cheap, cause that's totally what's going on here (sarcasm).

Please, if you don't have anything constructive to add, leave. I'm trying to learn, not be berated by someone who thinks I'm trying to "cut corners", but then adds no input as to what tools would be appropriate.




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[Marctrees]

Very possibly I missed something...

If so, I apologize.


From what I read and understood this was a critical issue, not just some guy making one part in his shop for his only use.


Seemed to me that the need mandated better quality measuring tools.


I am leaving this thread at request of the above post.

Marc

 

[Cummins_Tech]

We've established that is in fact a warranted need, which has brought forth more information as to what are higher quality, and what is not.

I think you missed that part where I opted for higher quality, and then proceeded to try to take a holier than thou approach, which I do not appreciate. Perhaps if I would have ignored the input about the better quality units and opted for something cheaper/sub par, than your comment might have been warranted, but that is most definitely not the case.


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[Ohmthis]

OP, I'm curious as to what type of engines you are working on? I'm assuming an engine for a machine that makes money every day, not the kind that could make money at a track. The only thing I'll add is that I have a starrett and a fowler indicator. Both are repeatable and on the money When compared to each other. I use the fowler for jobs in crappy environments and where abuse is more likely. It has never let me down. If someone came to me and said this measurement HAS to be on the money for the sake of your family.......I'm reaching for the starrett!!!

 

[Marctrees]

We've established that is in fact a warranted need, which has brought forth more information as to what are higher quality, and what is not.

I think you missed that part where I opted for higher quality, and then proceeded to try to take a holier than thou approach, which I do not appreciate. Perhaps if I would have ignored the input about the better quality units and opted for something cheaper/sub par, than your comment might have been warranted, but that is most definitely not the case.


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Apparently my apology was not sufficient... I will now go insert a PlusP 38 Special Bullet in my Brain to appease you.

Bye Bye, Marc

 

[Marctrees]

Oh...And regarding "Holy"...

Actually I am "Filthy as Rags"

Look that up in your Funk and Wagnalls.

Marc

 

[L.Cheapo]

My favorite YouTube machinist, Adam Booth (Abom79) uses Starrett USA dial indicators and Noga bases. He did extensive reviews on both and if a respected pro swears by them, thats good enough for me. I bought and use the same and have been very happy with them. No need for second guessing. The cost really isn't that much for tools that should last decades.

 

[zach540]

How good do you need your dial indicator to be?

Best:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002K07CTK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I agree with almost everything you said, except for the base you listed, I love NOGA, use it daily in my shop, but I feel their fine adjust on the base is the better option, such as this one:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001VY07VQ/ref=s9_dcacsd_dcoop_bw_c_x_5_w

 

[Cummins_Tech]

Thanks for the help everyone. A fellow GJ member is selling me a gently used mitutoyo base that I will be using with a MHC gauge that I have for timing mechanical pumps as a "loaner", and buying a noga base and starrett gauge for personal use and precision work.

Can't thank y'all enough.


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[04chase]

i was actually looking for the same thing, though not quite as much on the line as you and for home hobbyist turning pro. this will be for engine builds that require precision to build and check 20k+ engines . I appreciate you mentioning what you did choose as it will help others in similar situations . if you dont mind what did you spend and where?


assuming correctly , you are a cummins tech building hd cummins engines ?

 

[rlitman]

I don't think we're far apart on this topic really...

Totally agreed.

Thanks for the help everyone. A fellow GJ member is selling me a gently used mitutoyo base that I will be using with a MHC gauge that I have for timing mechanical pumps as a "loaner", and buying a noga base and starrett gauge for personal use and precision work.

Can't thank y'all enough.


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Enjoy it. When you have the two to compare, you'll quickly treasure the good one. Treated well, it's a BIFL purchase.

Plus, should the need arise, you'll own something good enough to be sent out for a calibration certificate.

 

[Cummins_Tech]

That's a bonus of working for this company, biannual calibrations for free.


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[Cummins_Tech]

i was actually looking for the same thing, though not quite as much on the line as you and for home hobbyist turning pro. this will be for engine builds that require precision to build and check 20k+ engines . I appreciate you mentioning what you did choose as it will help others in similar situations . if you dont mind what did you spend and where?


assuming correctly , you are a cummins tech building hd cummins engines ?

That is correct. As to the where and how much, no answer yet, but will update when I do.


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[Fcvapor05]

That is correct. As to the where and how much, no answer yet, but will update when I do.


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Glad we could help.

Also, a fine point- when I linked the NOGA base and indicator I sent earlier, I just realized I didn't check which type of mount it had compared to the indicator I also linked.

make sure your indicator and base are compatible, i.e. if you have a lug back indicator you'll want a NOGA base designed for one.

I have no experience with the fine adjust NOGA base recommended by Zach, but check that out too if you're into it.

Also sounds like you're after Starrett indicators. I linked Mitutoyo products in my recommendation post, but Starrett and Mitutoyo share the top spot in my opinion. They are both excellent quality and comparably priced. Just in case Starrett vs. Mitutoyo was a question in your mind.