Did raised panel used to be better?

[FriendOfYours]

I was stuck changing a water pump on the side of the road on my father's truck last week. I haven't used any craftsman tools in a long time and that's what he has in his road box.

Most of these are 30+ years old, but I was surprised at how tight the clearances were on the open end of his raised panel wrenches. On more than one occasion I've had my Armstrongs at least "FEEL" like they were spreading on tight bolts. Is it just the thickness on these? They've gotta be a couple mm thicker on the open end. The end is still quite narrow, not all lobster clawy

 

[defektes]

I was stuck changing a water pump on the side of the road on my father's truck last week. I haven't used any craftsman tools in a long time and that's what he has in his road box.

Most of these are 30+ years old, but I was surprised at how tight the clearances were on the open end of his raised panel wrenches. On more than one occasion I've had my Armstrongs at least "FEEL" like they were spreading on tight bolts. Is it just the thickness on these? They've gotta be a couple mm thicker on the open end. The end is still quite narrow, not all lobster clawy

Probably better steel.

 

[Kirbot]

Old ones were WAY better.
New (or at least the last of the USA production. I haven't tried the Chinese version) raised panel wrenches are about the softest wrenches on the market.

 

[rsanter]

Older USA craftsman is better than the newer (last ten or so years) USA craftsman.
I don't even think about the China craftman

Bob

 

[MagnumForce]

Current China RPs are better than the last US ones by far.

 

[Ign]

I've wondered this too. The older RP's seem to last a long time. If they were as poor as some say they'd all look like V's (not a reference to -V- series) by now.

 

[Kirbot]

Current China RPs are better than the last US ones by far.

I can't speak for the wrenches, but that's absolutely try for the RP ratchets.

 

[steed andersen]

I was stuck changing a water pump on the side of the road on my father's truck last week. I haven't used any craftsman tools in a long time and that's what he has in his road box.

Most of these are 30+ years old, but I was surprised at how tight the clearances were on the open end of his raised panel wrenches. On more than one occasion I've had my Armstrongs at least "FEEL" like they were spreading on tight bolts. Is it just the thickness on these? They've gotta be a couple mm thicker on the open end. The end is still quite narrow, not all lobster clawy

I use my Grandfathers raised panel C-man wrenches everyday. They are definitely better than the new ones I bought for spares. These see heavy use on small engine/light equipment and I haven't felt the need to upgrade yet. Maybe in a few years but for now these 50 year old wrenches are plenty good for my work.

 

[thegroundpounder99]

The old ones are far better IMO. When I started wrenching it was w/ Craftsman and they held up. This was 16 years ago or so. I helped a buddy do some work on his car not long ago and he bought a Craftsman tool kit....(300 pcs or so) and I broke the first wrench I touched. Never broke a Craftsman wrench before. Followed that up with some sockets and needless to say that really opened my eyes to how far a once great brand (to me anyway) had fallen. I still use my old Craftsman stuff at the house and just hope I don't need any replacements with the new stuff.

 

[Fugio]

Mine are over 40 years old and I've never broken or damaged a single one of them.

Every time I see a thread like this I have to run out and make sure my tool shed is locked.

 

[defektes]

Current China RPs are better than the last US ones by far.

Too thick, lobster claw makes them un useable in many situations.

 

[MagnumForce]

That is why I said current, the lobster claw has been gone for a couple years now.

 

[defektes]

That is why I said current, the lobster claw has been gone for a couple years now.

They are smaller bit still a bit bigger than the last gen USA. Atleast the last one I compared 4 months ago. I was working on a clay thrower and my buddy had a Chinese 13mm couldn't fit into this spot, luckily I had my 13mm from about 2009 that worked great. His wrenches were new from January of this year.

 

[oldldh]

As I approach my eighth decade on this planet...

I have arrived at one immutable truth...

If the object in question is not powered by electricity...

Older is usually better...

Hell...

Look at yrhmblsrvnt!!!

(It is absatively, posilutely true in Craftsman Raised Panel Wrenches, however...)

 

[02camaro86]

i prefer raised panels over polished... unless they are MAC knucklesavers... i have a special place in my heart for those

 

[67King]

Am I the only one who has had an old (25 years) RP wrench spread?

 

[Tim37]

Am I the only one who has had an old (25 years) RP wrench spread?

I don't think anyone is gonna argue that they are the best wrenches. But they where a good usable wrench and for folks that didn't need a super high end wrench they served admirably. Ten years ago if a weekend warrior or young guy just getting started had asked about tools I wouldny have hesitated a second in recomending cman The new Chinese ones arnt even good enough for the scrap pile.

 

[gungatim]

Current China RPs are better than the last US ones by far.

wrenches yeah, but regular sockets and ratchets, no way...I love the older craftsman stuff, until you get to the really old stuff before they were chrome. new China ratchets are so sloppy I won't even use them. and hate the china 12pt sockets. some China allen sockets are decent but it's really hit and miss.

 

[1950mercury]

Am I the only one who has had an old (25 years) RP wrench spread?

Just about any smooth open end will spread

 

[sberry]

The pre 1980 were pretty good, after that they are generic junk. The china are at least as good and probably better.

 

[Fedwrench]

Yes and No. I think the older stuff was made out of better steel and finished to higher standards. however, you didn't have things like off corner engagement or fine toothed ratchets. The best thing about older Craftsman tools was that you didn't have the gimmick **** they have today. The Craftsman of old concentrated on the tools. Think of all of the stuff that was built with Craftsman tools over the years

On a side note, everybody seems to bring up open end spread as measure of quality. I know sometimes like in suspension work, you have to use an open end but, I think if you're breaking fasteners loose with an open end, you're doing it wrong.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I don't know. All of my Craftsman wrenches and sockets are over 30 years old !

 

[maxpower_hd]

I can personally attest that the old Craftsman stuff was better than the newer USA stuff or the newest China stuff. I has got to the point I don't even want Craftsman any more. I haven't really had an issue with wrenches but I have broken more sockets, ratchets and screw drivers in the last year than I ever have. They just don't hold up. You can sometimes even see the difference when comparing two of the same part numbers from different eras side by side.

Most recently I saw someone who bought a recent metric socket set from Craftsman and the 10mm socket was only 7mm. How does that happen? Sounds like poor Quality Assurance to me. I didn't believe him at first but I even measured it.

Now I try to spring for used higher quality stuff like Snap On, Matco, etc. rather than spring for new Craftsman if I can help it.

 

[WHT]

Older Craftsman was much better.

40 years ago car and motorcycle magazines would run tool buying articles periodically. The general conclusions were always (i) we use Snap-on in our magazine shops, but (ii) Craftsman is 3/4ths as good at 1/2 the price and we buy Craftsman tools for our personal use.

Unfortunately, those days are long gone.

 

[1990 Grand Wag]

IMNSHO, the older Craftsman stuff was much better than some of the more recent items they contracted out to China. I know too many professional mechanics and engine builders at home that made a living using nothing but Craftsman in the past. Some of the Danaher era items are the same as the KD, Allen, post Williams Kobalt, NAPA and a few others, and I don't see too many gripes about those on this forum (and I have them myself). Funny thing is, I "think" some of the more recent stuff comes right out of the Apex/Gearwrench factory in China. Those Maxx Axxess long pattern wrenches look exactly (to my untrained eye) like the Gearwrenches!

 

[Mechanical Noise]

Am I the only one who has had an old (25 years) RP wrench spread?

Probably the only open end wrenches I've spread have been old Craftsman raised panels. But I was young and still learning.

 

[Mechanical Noise]

Those Maxx Axxess long pattern wrenches look exactly (to my untrained eye) like the Gearwrenches!

Aside from the markings, they are the same.

 

[MixManSC]

I've seen mentions of some of the new cman "china" made being better than some of the last of the US made products. The last of the US made products were almost certainly also a result of "quality fade" but might have just been lower standards from the get go with a new producer.

Particularly for China made products though you have to be aware of "quality fade" with anything from there that seems to be pretty decent when its just hitting the US market.... It is a well know fact and the Chinese will often even openly admit it. Cman or whoever contracts some factory there to manufacture something to their spec and they visit the top notch factory and get production samples and all is good and dandy. Then after the executives go home they shift the bulk of the production to a shadow factory with far far lower quality standards, worker standards, etc...

Sadly its not just a China thing, although it is most prevalent there since they often bid manufacturing prices that if continued at their shiny five star factory meeting the highest standards would actually lose money. They almost always actually go into a contract knowing this from the start and are already intending on sacrificing tolerances, material quality, material volumes, etc on the real primary production to reduce the costs. Of course things like not replacing worn out tooling (further reduction in tolerances and quality), replacing worn out tooling with inferior tooling, etc also contributes. This also happens in with manufacturing in almost all low cost countries.

 

[MagnumForce]

I don't know, I use my Chinese stuff daily in heavy industrial maintenance and have no issues at all. But RP rats have ALWAYS sucked. The current Low Profile rats are spectacular, no idea how they can get a bad rap.

 

[LordPsychon]

I don't know, I use my Chinese stuff daily in heavy industrial maintenance and have no issues at all. But RP rats have ALWAYS sucked. The current Low Profile rats are spectacular, no idea how they can get a bad rap.

Probably because someone, somewhere used it inappropriately and looked up the COO and said "yep, it's Chinese **** all right!" The Cman low profile ratchets are decent to good quality for sure (just based on feel) and probably better in practice.

 

[kythri]

Some of the Danaher era items are the same as the KD, Allen, post Williams Kobalt, NAPA and a few others, and I don't see too many gripes about those on this forum (and I have them myself).

Yup.

There were a fair number of folks that regularly complained about raised panel ratchets absolutely falling over themselves to buy the NAPA versions as they were being clearanced out to make room for Carlyle.

Rather amusing.

I've yet to see any issues with my circa-2005 raised panel ratchets, wrenches, etc. Supposedly the "worst" generation.

My only "complaint" with raised panel wrenches is their length. I've come to prefer a longer wrench, but the raised panels still serve their purpose, and are incredibly handy when I need a shorter wrench, but don't want to use a stubby.

Haven't rounded a single bolt or nut with the open or fixed end.

 

[MagnumForce]

On the other hand I use no rp stuff, low profile rats, sockets and the Craftsman branded gearwrench reversible combos and full polish stuff.

I don't think rp stuff is much different than in the past, we just have so much better stuff now.

Let's face it, rp was never great.

 

[skruft]

I used the old Craftsman raised panel combination wrenches for a long time beginning as a kid working on old cars in the late 60s. As I recall, I never broke one or had problems with them. I was (and still am) an amateur so I have no idea how well they would have worked in daily use.

 

[Hootbro]

...............

Most recently I saw someone who bought a recent metric socket set from Craftsman and the 10mm socket was only 7mm. How does that happen? Sounds like poor Quality Assurance to me. I didn't believe him at first but I even measured it.
..................

It happens because **** does happen. People tend to filter with nostalgia the Craftsman of old, but they had their fair share of incorrectly marked sockets or miss broached ones or wrenches not sized right.

The main difference besides the COO between China and USA for the Craftsman stuff is the USA stuff by and large was made pre internet days so the occasional **** USA made tool was not amplified all over the internet like the late coming china made ones.

 

[Ballistic Jello]

I've seen mentions of some of the new cman "china" made being better than some of the last of the US made products. The last of the US made products were almost certainly also a result of "quality fade" but might have just been lower standards from the get go with a new producer.

Particularly for China made products though you have to be aware of "quality fade" with anything from there that seems to be pretty decent when its just hitting the US market.... It is a well know fact and the Chinese will often even openly admit it. Cman or whoever contracts some factory there to manufacture something to their spec and they visit the top notch factory and get production samples and all is good and dandy. Then after the executives go home they shift the bulk of the production to a shadow factory with far far lower quality standards, worker standards, etc...

Sadly its not just a China thing, although it is most prevalent there since they often bid manufacturing prices that if continued at their shiny five star factory meeting the highest standards would actually lose money. They almost always actually go into a contract knowing this from the start and are already intending on sacrificing tolerances, material quality, material volumes, etc on the real primary production to reduce the costs. Of course things like not replacing worn out tooling (further reduction in tolerances and quality), replacing worn out tooling with inferior tooling, etc also contributes. This also happens in with manufacturing in almost all low cost countries.

That is some interesting insight, what do you do for a living, if you don't mind saying.

 

[Ign]

That is some interesting insight, what do you do for a living, if you don't mind saying.

I'm not saying any of this is true or not, but there are articles all over about the alleged practice. Check this thread and read the article linked in post #1
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230076

 

[MixManSC]

That is some interesting insight, what do you do for a living, if you don't mind saying.

I own and operate a wide format printing / sign company....

I'm not saying any of this is true or not, but there are articles all over about the alleged practice. Check this thread and read the article linked in post #1
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230076

Good article linked in that which goes into some of the problems in more detail. As Ign mentioned, just Google China quality fade and you will find literally tons of reading on the subject. Much of it nowadays verified and as I had mentioned, many Chinese factory owners even openly admit to the practices.

 

[holdtherice]

I started working on cars as a teenager in the '80's and had some cheap Chinese and Craftsman tools to work with. Had no real issue with either. I suspect Chinese quality went up a lot over the last 30 years, while the USA Craftsman may not be quite as good. Still, my newer USA RP wrenches seem to work fine for my home auto repairs.

Not trying to derail, but anyone want to comment on CM USA Professional Wrenches vs. the more recent Full Polish imports?

 

[MagnumForce]

The current polished stuff is identical to gearwrench and Crescent from what I can tell. My Husky flex heads are identical to my gearwrench ones too. Apex is Apex the world round and quite serviceable.