Did Sears ever sell Plomb WF rats?

[JoCoSawdust]

Forgive me if this subject has already been addressed but I don't see any discussion on it so far.

A few months ago on my nightly stroll through eBay, I saw a New Britain made 1/4" Craftsman set with an unmarked Plomb WF ratchet in it. I figured it was a cobbled together set and kept scrolling. Recently I've been spending entirely too much time looking through the catalogs from Mrcraftsmantools DVD set and came across this image. My first thought was that it sure looked like a WF rat to me:



This set is offered from 1945 to 1948. The artists depiction remains unchanged with the exception of the Heritage logo being drawn on the inside of the lid in 47 and 48. It's packaged in the square corner case from the Long C era in all 4 years. It's impossible to determine the maker of the other components from the artists rendering. The open gear NB 1/4" rat is still being offered in sets during this period. I'm guess this was a period where they were off loading NB stock to make way for the Moore dynasty that was to come.

I considered the possibility that the artists rendering just lacked detail and that this could be a Plomb Circle U rat. I discount this as I believe this is what the artist came up with to represent Circle U rats:



Further along, the artist nails the image of the MDF boxheads:



Going back to the original image, it still looks like a WF to me. I don't believe this to be a bad drawing of a Circle U set. I have a 1/4" Circle U set from the original owner and it's in the rounded clamshell box that shows up in the mid 40s. Plomb was in bed with Sears by now and I'm wondering if Plomb struck a deal with Sears to unload some overstock WFs from the war. I was still on the fence about it until another collector told me he snagged a 1/4" set at an estate sale that had all NB components with an unmarked WF rat. That set, along with the one I've seen on the Bay, strengthens my belief that this was available as a catalog set.

At any rate, I've put together this set. Not counting the WF, all the components are NB and marked with the later =CRAFTSMAN= logo (minus 2 Long Cs I have holding spots till I find replacements).





Any input, knowledge, opinions or disagreements are greatly appreciated.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

 

[woody 73]

Circle U yes

 

[RubiconJK]

Circle U yes

+1 Craftsman branded Circle U. Link below to post on the Plomb thread showing my 1/2" set.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7871966&postcount=6427

 

[d42jeep]

Maybe like this unmarked example?
-Don

 

[3baygarage]

The drawing certainly looks like a WF-8, with one screw. I feel like this may have been discussed once before

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Yes, the same rat Don showed a pic of. Interestingly, my unmarked WF had the selector lever oriented upright like his as well. I "corrected" that to orient it downwards but...

Anyhow...I'm well aware of the Circle U presence at this time but I'm leaning towards Sears sticking unmarked WF rats in these sets to burn up their stock of NB tools. If not, the artist did a damned good job of drawing a WF rat over this four year period when he should have been drawing a Circle U.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

I appreciate the challenges to my assertion as it makes me dig harder to figure it out. The presence of one screw really doesn't do anything to pin it down as both WFs and Circle U's had that one screw. I see these differences between the two. Face plate on the U is oval, the WF plate is more of a figure 8 shape. Screw is countersunk on the U, not countersunk on the WF. The contour of the handle differers between the two. The WF contour is a straight line from thin to thicker as the handle widens. On the U, the handle widens initially then goes straight until it rounds at the bottom.



It's difficult to determine the shape of the face plate in the drawing, the screw looks to me to be not countersunk but could honestly go either way but the contour of the handle looks purely WF, not U.



Another thing I've noticed, and this goes to dispute my mixed set assertion, is the hinge handle. The U is a bit shorter, a bit thinner but the most telling difference is the hinge itself. The NB hinge has exposed heads on the outside of the joint, the U does not. The catalog drawing doesn't show exposed heads. I went back to the 43 drawings of NB hinge handles and the artists includes the exposed heads.



I dunno, maybe I'm overthinking this thing. I can't find any obviously Circle U 1/4" midget sets in the gray, rounded clamshell box like the one I own in the catalogs, that would push me to think this drawing in question is just a bad job representing the product. The near perfect representation of a WF rat along with the square corner box the set comes in throws me for a loop and makes me wonder.

Do any of you have a square corner 1/4" case with any part of a Heritage logo remaining inside? If so, what color is the box?

One thing I'm reasonably certain of, this is not what's depicted in the catalog drawing:

 

[Plombob]

Perhaps throwing a wrench in your research.......

I have a P&C 11/4" ratchet that looks just like the one in the advert.

 

[Rileysan]

Perhaps throwing a wrench in your research.......

I have a P&C 11/4" ratchet that looks just like the one in the advert.

I have a couple as well but the OP's theory was pertaining to unmarked ratchets. The P&C WF-8s were clearly marked "P&C"

In a separate discussion I had with Jocosawdust, I remembered buying a 1/4" drive Craftsman Circle-H socket set (in original metal box) from an estate sale that contained an unmarked Plomb WF-8 ratchet. At the time, I dismissed it as having been placed there by the previous owner. Now I'm not so sure ...

The timeline fits perfectly with the discontinuation of New Britain made Craftsman tools and the introduction of Plomb-made Craftsman tools (ca. 1945-48).

We have no real insight as to how these tool sets were put together. Were the sets all put together in the manufacturer's factory or were they shipped in bulk to a central Sears warehouse to be assembled? If the latter, I think it plausible to have mixed sets.

Just food for thought ...

Brian

 

[d42jeep]

You didn’t mention which sockets you’re missing but I found this Circle H 5/16” socket with the two line Craftsman logo recently. Let me know if you need it.
-Don

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Thanks Don. I need a 6 point double line 5/16. I have the 8 pt and I found my other missing socket just yesterday. If that's a 6 point please shoot me a message with your price. Thanks again!

 

[d42jeep]

JoCo,
I’m very sorry that I mis-remembered. It turns out that the socket is a 6 point 7/16” socket rather than a 5/16”. I’ll keep an eye out for the correct size.
-Don

 

[JoCoSawdust]

No worries Don, thanks for looking!

 

[Rileysan]

Thanks Don. I need a 6 point double line 5/16. I have the 8 pt and I found my other missing socket just yesterday. If that's a 6 point please shoot me a message with your price. Thanks again!

You may have opened another can of worms ... 6-pt vs 12-pt sockets. I have at least 1/2 dozen New Britain made Craftsman socket sets and have all but ignored the socket types. Now I need to look mine over ...

Brian

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Per the catalogs, the midget sets had no 12-point sockets in 1948. They offered 3/16" through 7/16" in 6-points, and the 1/4" and 5/16" came in 8-point in a 15-pc set, and in several different combination drive sets. In 1942, only the 7/32", 1/4" and 9/32" came in 6-point, with 3/16", 11/32", 3/8", and 7/16" in 12-point, and 1/4" and 5/16" in 8-point. The wartime sets and orphans I have had bear that out. I don't have enough postwar sets to confirm that, and I don't have any catalogs in between 1942 and 1948 to know when the broachings switched exactly. The 1945 and 1946 Christmas catalogs, which only show a 1/2-inch drive set, are no help for midgets. You guys with the CD may be able to suss out that immediate postwar era in more detail.

This set is offered from 1945 to 1948.

JoCo,

From what specific publications are you getting the 1945 and implied 1946 and 1947 dates from in this statement above? I don't have the CD. I have the 1942 catalog and the 1948 catalog, and, for helping to make some informed assumptions about the in between period, for which no Sears annual catalog is available for free as an open source resource, I have a 1945 and a 1946 Christmas catalog, care of the generous people at Wishbookweb. Please let me know what specific publication(s) the CD is citing for its 1945, 1946, and 1947 sources. There is no midget set shown in the 1945 or 1946 Christmas catalogs. The 1945 Christmas catalog shows a 1/2-inch drive set that is NB-made. The 1946 Christmas catalog shows a 1/2-inch drive set that is not NB-made. It could be Plomb-made. Do you mean that midget set 9 PC 4414 is shown in 1945, 1946, and 1947 annual catalogs?

I am not here to argue. I have no stake and I am completely indifferent to the question of whether Sears was putting Plomb-made WF-pattern (unmarked “WF”) ratchets in factory midget sets or not. In short, it would be cool to confirm that, and no skin off my nose if it is not resolved.

I do have a caution, though. I don’t think any definitive conclusions can be made about what Sears was doing with any of their drive sets in any size in 1948 by using the 1948 catalog.

My copy has an ad for a 115-pc set between the cover and page 1. If you look at that ad page and the first five numbered pages (Page 1 through Page 5), you will find a midget set ratchet shown six different times in six different combination drive sets. It is clearly shown as an NB open gear pattern ratchet in a few (as you alluded to above), clearly as MDF in a few (as you alluded to above), and in the 15-pc set you have shown above on page 5, perhaps as a Plomb Circle-U, perhaps as a Plomb WF-pattern.

For the 115-pc set (99 PCM 4346) on the insert page, the 1/2-inch drive ratchet looks like a Plomb Circle-U (maybe it's an MDF? but it's not NB), the 3/8-inch drive ratchet is an NB Circle-H or BE, and the 1/4-inch drive ratchet is also NB. I don’t think every 99 PCM 4346 set that was sent to customers was outfitted that way.

Now look at Page 3. The 35- and 49-pc sets on the left show all NB rats, including the midget sets. The 90-pc set (99 PCM 4345) on the right shows 1/2- and 3/8-inch drive ratchets as MDF, and a 1/4-inch drive ratchet as something else. Not NB. Not MDF. Could be Plomb Circle-U. Could be Plomb WF-pattern. But again, I don't think that image means that all 90-pc 99 PCM 4345 sets that were ordered came outfitted like that. Or, conversely, that everyone who ordered the 35- and 49-pc sets on the left got sets with NB-made ratchets in them.

If you’re saying it’s possible that some NOS ratchets made by Plomb for the US Army Air Forces with “WF”-pattern dies but no “WF” markings made their way into some Sears socket sets in the early Circle-U contract years, I’d agree. It's also possible that Plomb continued making them with the "WF" pattern dies to satisfy early Sears orders before they went with the Circle-U dies. We know they did that with other customers.

I just don't think the catalog image and the empirical data (sets bought 70+ years later) are enough to definitize it.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Here's the image of the midget set with ratchet I was referring to on page 3 in the 90-piece 99 PCM 4345 set in the 1948 catalog.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

We have no real insight as to how these tool sets were put together. Were the sets all put together in the manufacturer's factory or were they shipped in bulk to a central Sears warehouse to be assembled? If the latter, I think it plausible to have mixed sets.

Good point, Brian. The concept of mixed sets, specifically in this Transition Period era, has been discussed before in the Long C thread. Usually in conjunction with tools being marked with Long C era markings and the boxes having Heritage era (=CRAFTSMAN=) decals or markings, or, a mix of (H) and BE. And I have offered a little potential insight before, based on what Sears, Roebuck & Co did during WWII to meet their own military contract demands. For the US Army Signal Corps, their primary customer, they contracted with 3rd party integrators who did all of their acquisition and assembly work, receiving various pieces (including tools) and putting them together as sets in various boxes or bags. These integrators were all in the Philadelphia area, in Pennsylvania and NJ. Their names were prominently put on data tags and plates on the integrated items. So prominently that before WWII collecting became more informed and proficient, these integrators were incorrectly identified as mfgrs. EDIT: I'm not suggesting Sears used them after the war. But I am saying those functions had to be either performed by Plomb and MDF or another entity. And others have shared stories in the later years about MDF and Easco having regional distribution centers where functions like these were performed. Creating an environment where mixed-marked sets could occur.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Don: Yes I'm using the DVD catalogs. I'll sit down and comb through them in more detail later but for now, the catalog image in my OP is pretty much unchanged in the post war years in question. The only thing that actually changes is the Heritage logo appearing in 47 or 48 if I remember correctly. I think you're right, we'll never get a definitive answer, particularly going off somebody's drawings. I've noticed two things that go against my theory. 1, I see no catalog drawings of a distinctly Circle U midget set in the gray, round corner case for sale as a stand alone item. 2, the image of the hinge handle in my OP looking more Circle U than NB.

Brian: I'll look through my NB 1/4" sockets but off the top of my head I don't recall having any 12pt sockets in my older midget sets.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

I correct myself and I'd read through Don's post too fast. I do indeed have some 12pt 1/4" sockets. 5/16, 11/32, 3/8 and 7/16. All BE. I don't have any H 12pts to include the later logo stuff.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Don: Yes I'm using the DVD catalogs.

Thanks. (Add thanks for the promotion from Private to Don! )

I do indeed have some 12pt 1/4" sockets. 5/16, 11/32, 3/8 and 7/16. All BE.

That makes sense for Long C.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Thanks. (Add thanks for the promotion from Private to Don! )


Ooops! Carry on Private!

 

[Rileysan]

Good point, Brian. The concept of mixed sets, specifically in this Transition Period era, has been discussed before in the Long C thread. Usually in conjunction with tools being marked with Long C era markings and the boxes having Heritage era (=CRAFTSMAN=) decals or markings, or, a mix of (H) and BE. And I have offered a little potential insight before, based on what Sears, Roebuck & Co did during WWII to meet their own military contract demands. For the US Army Signal Corps, their primary customer, they contracted with 3rd party integrators who did all of their acquisition and assembly work, receiving various pieces (including tools) and putting them together as sets in various boxes or bags. These integrators were all in the Philadelphia area, in Pennsylvania and NJ. Their names were prominently put on data tags and plates on the integrated items. So prominently that before WWII collecting became more informed and proficient, these integrators were incorrectly identified as mfgrs. EDIT: I'm not suggesting Sears used them after the war. But I am saying those functions had to be either performed by Plomb and MDF or another entity. And others have shared stories in the later years about MDF and Easco having regional distribution centers where functions like these were performed. Creating an environment where mixed-marked sets could occur.

Fascinating bit of information! I suspected Sears did something like this for their tool sets sold to the public and this certainly lends credence to that suspicion.

Brian

 

[Rileysan]

Once again, thanks to David Maher (MrCraftsmanTools) for his fine work on the collecting, scanning, and publishing of the Craftsman catalogs I'm using.

Here are captures from the 1945 through 1948 catalogs depicting the available "midget" sets.

What's frustrating is the ad descriptions do not match up to the illustrations. That is, all of the ads describe 6-pt sockets (7/32" to 7/16") but all of the illustrations show 12-pt sockets. If you throw the human condition into the equation, there's no telling what socket type you were going to receive!

Brian

 

[r_olson_06]

With this possiblity of WF ratchets being potentially part of the Craftsman offering. I am going throw out a crazy hypothesis. Is it possible that the SR stuff we have been hunting all along is really Sears Robuck? I know it has been mentioned before and now with Sears potentially selling WF contact items under the Craftsman I don't think this is as farfetch'd as once previously believed. Can anyone shoot holes in this hypothesis?

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[RubiconJK]

With this possiblity of WF ratchets being potentially part of the Craftsman offering. I am going throw out a crazy hypothesis. Is it possible that the SR stuff we have been hunting all along is really Sears Robuck? I know it has been mentioned before and now with Sears potentially selling WF contact items under the Craftsman I don't think this is as farfetch'd as once previously believed. Can anyone shoot holes in this hypothesis?

Roy, as you and I have talked before, we are in agreement with the Sears Roebuck theory on the SR stuff.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I am going throw out a crazy hypothesis. Is it possible that the SR stuff we have been hunting all along is really Sears Robuck?...[ ]...Can anyone shoot holes in this hypothesis?

It's been hypothesized before, Roy, probably on every thread the "[S.R.]" stuff comes up in.

I wouldn't characterize counterpoints as shooting holes so much as things for everyone to consider. But if you're looking to see them again...

The main argument against the theory, for me, is how unprecedented it would be. Sears, Roebuck & Co were not putting their name on products in the 30's, 40's, or even later. They were using brands (Craftsman, Fulton, and Dunlap) instead. Furthermore, if they decided to start putting their name on products, it doesn't seem to me that a logo such as "[S.R.]" - which has to be considered sort of crude and simplistic - is what they would conceive of. While the "[S.R.]" tools captivate collectors, it's not because the line is extraordinary. It's because they are mysterious and made by Plomb. They are limited to drive tools, and they aren't even chrome-plated, suggesting economy or industrial category tools, which is not a category of tools I would expect Sears, Roebuck, & Co. to pick to be bearing their initials or the first time in their history. Finally, if the "[S.R.]" is Sears, Roebuck, and it was an intentional product line, why wouldn't we see them advertised as such by Sears, Roebuck?

I could be wrong. I am just providing you with my thoughts for why I have a hard time subscribing to the theory.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

As I have posted before somewhere, I did find something in a very early Sears, Roebuck catalog that gave me some pause, and that was a few examples of Sears, Roebuck & Company being referred to as "S.R. & CO" and also just "S.R." in print. Again, that's not the same as marking products that way, and it would mean more, even in print, if it was in the same era as the tools in question. But maybe someone with late 1940's era Sears, Roebuck & Co. catalogs could check those. The DVD that guy was selling here was advertised as searchable. Maybe someone who sprung for one can run a search on "S.R." and see what pops up.

EDIT: Added the attachments.

 

[r_olson_06]

It's been hypothesized before, Roy, probably on every thread the "[S.R.]" stuff comes up in.

I wouldn't characterize counterpoints as shooting holes so much as things for everyone to consider. But if you're looking to see them again...

The main argument against the theory, for me, is how unprecedented it would be. Sears, Roebuck & Co were not putting their name on products in the 30's, 40's, or even later. They were using brands (Craftsman, Fulton, and Dunlap) instead. Furthermore, if they decided to start putting their name on products, it doesn't seem to me that a logo such as "[S.R.]" - which has to be considered sort of crude and simplistic - is what they would conceive of. While the "[S.R.]" tools captivate collectors, it's not because the line is extraordinary. It's because they are mysterious and made by Plomb. They are limited to drive tools, and they aren't even chrome-plated, suggesting economy or industrial category tools, which is not a category of tools I would expect Sears, Roebuck, & Co. to pick to be bearing their initials or the first time in their history. Finally, if the "[S.R.]" is Sears, Roebuck, and it was an intentional product line, why wouldn't we see them advertised as such by Sears, Roebuck?

I could be wrong. I am just providing you with my thoughts for why I have a hard time subscribing to the theory.

Thank you for your feedback. I love your logical approach to these topics.

I agree with this tool line being more of mystery vs a superb quality line. It has definitely attracted attention for that exact reason. It may never be solved. It could be as simple as Plomb had a bunch of blanks of the WF series and pitched an ecomony line to a tool supplier and they bit. We know that the WF series seems to have been over produced at least in the 9/32" category with boxes of new sockets and extension still showing up to this day. The stamping could been to tell the Plomb made WF vs not. It may not have been the choice of the SR company at all but Plomb. This is all theory brainstorming with no facts to back it up as usual.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Yes, thanks Lugz for your insight. I'm enjoying following the discussion on all of this. Brian, thanks for consolidating the catalog images. I missed the glitch between description of sockets in comparison to the images.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The stamping could been to tell the Plomb made WF vs not. It may not have been the choice of the SR company at all but Plomb.

That's possible, I suppose, but it's a static view at the point of manufacturing. Where did the "[S.R.]" tools go after Plomb made them? How were they sold and to whom? By 1950 Sears, Roebuck & Co. had 700 stores. So they were either in stores or the catalog or both. How were they ordered? How were they advertised? Why would Sears, Roebuck & Co contract with Plomb for Craftsman brand tools, specify that they be branded CRAFTSMAN and marked with a Circle-U symbol, and, at or around the same time, contract with Plomb for a separate line of tools, and give Plomb carte blanche on how they were to be marked, with no brand name, and no symbol?

Again, not arguing with you. These are just my hang-ups on the theory.

 

[RubiconJK]

That's possible, I suppose, but it's a static view at the point of manufacturing. Where did the "[S.R.]" tools go after Plomb made them? How were they sold and to whom? By 1950 Sears, Roebuck & Co. had 700 stores. So they were either in stores or the catalog or both. How were they ordered? How were they advertised? Why would Sears, Roebuck & Co contract with Plomb for Craftsman brand tools, specify that they be branded CRAFTSMAN and marked with a Circle-U symbol, and, at or around the same time, contract with Plomb for a separate line of tools, and give Plomb carte blanche on how they were to be marked, with no brand name, and no symbol?

Again, not arguing with you. These are just my hang-ups on the theory.

What if (and this is just conjecture on my part), Plomb sweetened the pot with Sears while negotiating the Craftsman Circle U contract(1944-1948) by offering up a bunch of surplus, but previously unmarked WF drive tools for Sears to do with what they wanted? Sears, not wanting to be responsible for warranty on these tools, wouldn't want them marked in a traditional manner and might have not sold them through normal channels, but instead sold them in bulk to another reseller in a part of the market that wouldn't cannibalize sales of Craftsman tools? Again, just a theory to offer up for consideration.

 

[d42jeep]

When Sears discontinued Dunlap tools around 1960, they immediately started branding their price line Sears. Many of the Sears branded tools were virtually identical to their Dunlap ancestors. I’ve not seen any evidence suggesting that the S.R. tools were sold alongside Craftsman but I don’t think it’s totally impossible that Sears may have marketed those tools for the Oxwall purchasing type of customer without any advertising.
-Don

 

[Rileysan]

When Sears discontinued Dunlap tools around 1960, they immediately started branding their price line Sears. Many of the Sears branded tools were virtually identical to their Dunlap ancestors. I’ve not seen any evidence suggesting that the S.R. tools were sold alongside Craftsman but I don’t think it’s totally impossible that Sears may have marketed those tools for the Oxwall purchasing type of customer without any advertising.
-Don

You bring up a great point. Sears has sold a huge variety of different tools over the years without advertising them in catalogs and/or seasonal mailers. There are so many Craftsman enigmas in the world we will likely never see (or even identify) everything. I think the only way the S.R. debate is ever going to be resolved is by the discovery of said tools found with an original retail receipt or corporate order form, but it takes a lot of discipline to look through piles of paper when there are tools to be picked!

Brian

 

[twertsy]

Here's what I could find in newspapers. Paper date and location in the title of each pic. A search in conjunction with "Sears" produced no relevant results.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

I appreciate the challenges to my assertion as it makes me dig harder to figure it out. The presence of one screw really doesn't do anything to pin it down as both WFs and Circle U's had that one screw. I see these differences between the two. Face plate on the U is oval, the WF plate is more of a figure 8 shape. Screw is countersunk on the U, not countersunk on the WF.

I have WF8 with both shapes and countersunk or not. My feeling is the oval is newer than the racetrack, but I have no proof.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

What if...Sears, not wanting to be responsible for warranty on these tools, wouldn't want them marked in a traditional manner and might have not sold them through normal channels, but instead sold them in bulk to another reseller in a part of the market that wouldn't cannibalize sales of Craftsman tools?

It's plausible.

I’ve not seen any evidence suggesting that the S.R. tools were sold alongside Craftsman but I don’t think it’s totally impossible that Sears may have marketed those tools for the Oxwall purchasing type of customer without any advertising.

Also plausible, as an example of some earlier thinking in a direction they would eventually take. I believe the SEARS branding was inside a rectangle, too, no?

When did Sears become or start using Sears, singularly, in literature, and no longer Sears, Roebuck & Co.?

I think the only way the S.R. debate is ever going to be resolved is by the discovery of said tools found with an original retail receipt or corporate order form,

I have said before it's going to take a document to substantiate. And I don't think we would need the tools with it. Any dated document that connects Sears, Roebuck to the logo would do it for me. But yeah, the tools along with it would seal it for sure.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Searching on "SR" and "S.R." is mind-numbingly difficult, as you can imagine. I have tried it before to no avail. But Twertsy worked some of his google-fu magic and found a 1950 newspaper ad for an "S.R. SOCKET SET" that he shared with me this morning. It is part of a larger ad with other tools and such from a no-name hardware store. The figure of the set is blotchy. Maybe he'll post it later. Or I'll see if he's busy and post it for him.

 

[d42jeep]

He posted it in #35.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, Don. I missed that post.