Did this ever meet code?

[DocRocket]

I went to replace a ceiling fan (that never worked right, in the five years I've had the house, but this weekend started making popping noises when the lights were on...), and found what I think might be a huge electrical problem (I suspect that this type of "work" is common in my house), so I'm trying to find out if it was correct back in 1982 (or shortly thereafter) when I think it was done.

When I took the fan apart to get it down, there was no electrical box, just a 3/8-1/2 inch hole with wires coming through it, and a couple of screws from the mounting bracket into the ceiling. So... up to the attic (on July 4th, my favorite...).

Up there: no electrical box, the wiring is just tied together with wirenuts and stuffed down between two chunks of 2x6 between the rafters (that the screws were going into. There was little to no slack in the cable (three conductor, 12 gauge, standard black/white/bare) and the ground was not cut, the ground for the fan/light was just wrapped around with electrical tape.

So, I put in a fan rated box, with support (I might put a fan back at some point or someone else might, and having lights drop on me overnight is unpleasant, so the extra $5 seems worth it--to never do this again), rewired everything inside the box, etc.

Since this is likely how the other 4 fans in the house were done, could it possibly have met code in 1982? It seems like there were no bare conductors or anything, but it certainly was not easy to get to the wiring to assess any problems there might have been. By the way, it was all covered in caulk too--may not be able to blame that on the builder, but still, it added to the fun (picking caulk off of the wires to get the wirenuts off, so I could finish dropping the non-functional fan, etc).

Sorry, got no pictures, did not take a camera up in the attic, to hot for that, would have shorted the camera out from sweat.

 

[Mustang51js]

They had boxes before 1982 so must have been a homeowner special that did the work

 

[Zeke]

Just bad juju there. Hell, they had ceiling boxes shortly after houses were converted from gas lighting.

 

[DocRocket]

That's kind of what I thought, but I had hopes there. I guess I will be going after the remainder of the fans too.

On the plus side, the fan was well supported structurally! Thanks.

 

[volleyball]

I've seen where "pro's" have done the same thing. Is it code? Never, is it done? To this day.

 

[rsanter]

Never come to what I know
I think you have one of those houses than never had a ceiling light in that room but relayed on lamps plugged into a switchable outlet.
Previous owner taped into that switched line and installed the fan

Bob

 

[rlitman]

They had boxes before 1982 so must have been a homeowner special that did the work

Ride the small bus, lick the windows kind of "special".

My house was built in 1929, and the original wiring (what's left) is cloth/rubber insulated tinned conductor BX with twisted and soldered connections, ceramic wire nuts and cloth tape over that, and all in steel boxes.

Back in 1929, the steel boxes were painted black. I'm not sure when galvanized came into fashion. Much earlier houses had post and tube. That did not have boxes, but everything else sure did.

As for hanging a fan from a fan box. That is not actually absolutely necessary. It is a convenience, but so long as the fixture box is attached to something solid (not sheetrock), it's fine. I'll use a fan box when it makes things easier, but I've framed in a 2x4 above the box to support an existing box where I wanted to add a fan.

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

I've seen where "pro's" have done the same thing. Is it code? Never, is it done? To this day.

If a "pro" did that he wouldn't be a pro then would he?

 

[Mustang51js]

Ride the small bus, lick the windows kind of "special".

My house was built in 1929, and the original wiring (what's left) is cloth/rubber insulated tinned conductor BX with twisted and soldered connections, ceramic wire nuts and cloth tape over that, and all in steel boxes.

Back in 1929, the steel boxes were painted black. I'm not sure when galvanized came into fashion. Much earlier houses had post and tube. That did not have boxes, but everything else sure did.

As for hanging a fan from a fan box. That is not actually absolutely necessary. It is a convenience, but so long as the fixture box is attached to something solid (not sheetrock), it's fine. I'll use a fan box when it makes things easier, but I've framed in a 2x4 above the box to support an existing box where I wanted to add a fan.

While I agree it's not the end of the world with the bracket screwed to the stud to hold the fan,it's the spliced wire I would be worried about. I had to fix a fan that wasn't working right and when I went into the attic the romex was stripped back to expose the wires inside, then they stripped a little insulation off the black and white and just wrapped the new wire around the exposed copper and left it like that,no tape or nothing. The homeowner wouldn't admit to it but I had the feeling he did it trying to be cheap. If they are willing to do that who knows what else they did in the house.

 

[DocRocket]

While I agree it's not the end of the world with the bracket screwed to the stud to hold the fan,it's the spliced wire I would be worried about. I had to fix a fan that wasn't working right and when I went into the attic the romex was stripped back to expose the wires inside, then they stripped a little insulation off the black and white and just wrapped the new wire around the exposed copper and left it like that,no tape or nothing. The homeowner wouldn't admit to it but I had the feeling he did it trying to be cheap. If they are willing to do that who knows what else they did in the house.

This is the part I am worried about. There were no exposed conductors (except the ground), but that was THIS one. Yes, I could have used a regular box and fastened it to the rafters next to it, but this is in an insulated attic, in July, and anything that gets me out of that attic is worth it. It was about 120 degrees up there, and there is 18 inches of fiberglass batts over about 6 inches of rockwool, so adding things in there is the definition of "not fun". The "Old Work" fan box got me out of there relatively quickly, so it was worth every penny.

 

[G_P]

My house was built in 1952 and has boxes so they were definitely required in 1982!

 

[Eriehunter]

As for hanging a fan from a fan box. That is not actually absolutely necessary. It is a convenience, but so long as the fixture box is attached to something solid (not sheetrock), it's fine. I'll use a fan box when it makes things easier, but I've framed in a 2x4 above the box to support an existing box where I wanted to add a fan.

If you are going to hang the fan from the ceiling box, as most fans are designed, the box must be rated to support (50lbs IIRC) the fan support boxes are designed with heavier thread bosses and have 10-32 screws in them.

 

[volleyball]

I've seen fans hang from regular plastic boxes for many decades with no problem. At least 30. Do I want to be under one, maybe not but the cheap fans are light and don't put much load. The plastic boxes teaches morons not to hang from one.

Pro means you get paid, not your skill level.

 

[Aceman]

Pro means you get paid, not your skill level.

That's just your opinion. In my mind it means both. Guys who turn out junk work shouldn't be called "professionals" just because they get paid to do it. Handymen get paid to do electrical all the time too, are they professionals?

I've said it on more than one occasion when a newer apprentice is working with me and is trying to take a short cut because it's easier, faster, etc. "The customer is paying us to do this, it should at least look like a professional wired it."

It also reminds me of a members signature from one of the professional electrical forums I visit that states, "the world needs more electricians, and fewer electrical installers."

I couldn't agree more.

 

[dledinger]

Since this is likely how the other 4 fans in the house were done, could it possibly have met code in 1982?

Nope.

 

[dragonballz]

That's just your opinion. In my mind it means both. Guys who turn out junk work shouldn't be called "professionals" just because they get paid to do it. Handymen get paid to do electrical all the time too, are they professionals?



I've said it on more than one occasion when a newer apprentice is working with me and is trying to take a short cut because it's easier, faster, etc. "The customer is paying us to do this, it should at least look like a professional wired it."



It also reminds me of a members signature from one of the professional electrical forums I visit that states, "the world needs more electricians, and fewer electrical installers."



I couldn't agree more.

It's not an opinion. It's a fact. But you are also correct about skill level. Both definitions are correct according to the dictionary. I prefer the "paid" definition though. I like to say I'm a professional pooper. I'm pretty good at it, too.

 

[Bib Overalls]

I see that kind of stuff all the time. Biggest offense here is pulling Romex through a bath room wall to wire up vanity lights.

 

[CoyoteKyle]

Just did a fan project this weekend. House built 1936. Had a box with the with bracket screwed into the joists.

 

[Falcon67]

Old ex-house was built in 1926. Every light and fan was mounted to the ceiling like that. Except, there were two holes - one for each leg of the knob and tube. Except for the newer fans, those had one for romex. That was lashed to the nearest knob and tube.

 

[yeldogt]

I did a bunch of pre WWI bungalows back in the 80's -- all originally knob/tube and none of the ceiling lights had boxes -- just this strange little clip for the two wires and a hole.

Same with the surface switches -- no box. All the ones built after WWI ...in the early 20's had small boxes in many places .. but not the ceiling lights.

I'm not sure when code said everything had to be in a box ... but it was not much later.

People do stupid stuff .. when doing it correctly can actually be easier.

 

[DocRocket]

I completely agree, it would have definitely been far easier for me if they had done it right before
It looks like I will be spending some "quality" time in the attic putting in junction boxes for the other fans

 

[BFBOB]

It looks like I will be spending some "quality" time in the attic putting in junction boxes for the other fans

Not necessarily -- there's a kind of box rated for fans that mounts on an expanding strut that goes between two rafters. It's kind of hard to describe, but it's like a mini-screw jack post with spikes on the ends. You reach up through an octogon box sized hole in the ceiling and unscrew it until it bites into the rafters, then run the wires into the box and attach it to the strut, all done from below the ceiling. They're kind of pricey, around $20 as I recall, but available at HD, probably Lowe's, Menards, etc.
But first, check your Locally Owned Tru-Value hardware store!

Aha, here it is, and not as buxy as I remembered: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Westingh...fit-Ceiling-Fan-Saf-T-Brace-0110000/204845572

 

[CoyoteKyle]

Not necessarily -- there's a kind of box rated for fans that mounts on an expanding strut that goes between two rafters. It's kind of hard to describe, but it's like a mini-screw jack post with spikes on the ends. You reach up through an octogon box sized hole in the ceiling and unscrew it until it bites into the rafters, then run the wires into the box and attach it to the strut, all done from below the ceiling. They're kind of pricey, around $20 as I recall, but available at HD, probably Lowe's, Menards, etc.
But first, check your Locally Owned Tru-Value hardware store!

Aha, here it is, and not as buxy as I remembered: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Westingh...fit-Ceiling-Fan-Saf-T-Brace-0110000/204845572

Here's a how to video on that brace that someone sent to me when hanging my fan. Seems pretty simple.
http://www.familyhandyman.com/video/v/63615093/how-to-install-a-ceiling-fan-brace.htm

 

[rlitman]

Not necessarily -- there's a kind of box rated for fans that mounts on an expanding strut that goes between two rafters. It's kind of hard to describe, but it's like a mini-screw jack post with spikes on the ends. You reach up through an octogon box sized hole in the ceiling and unscrew it until it bites into the rafters, then run the wires into the box and attach it to the strut, all done from below the ceiling. They're kind of pricey, around $20 as I recall, but available at HD, probably Lowe's, Menards, etc.
But first, check your Locally Owned Tru-Value hardware store!

Aha, here it is, and not as buxy as I remembered: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Westingh...fit-Ceiling-Fan-Saf-T-Brace-0110000/204845572

They do work, and solve a valid problem when there is no access from above, but if you can get into the attic without too much trouble, that's still the better option.

If you are going to hang the fan from the ceiling box, as most fans are designed, the box must be rated to support (50lbs IIRC) the fan support boxes are designed with heavier thread bosses and have 10-32 screws in them.

Agreed, the threads on most "round" boxes are not up the task of holding up a fan, but that's not the only way to do this.

Here are two "difficult" fans I installed with relatively easy fixes:

1) Box had access from above, but the ceiling box was a junction for wires going several directions, with soldered connections (OLD BX, still in serviceable shape). Since the fan hangs from a ring that sits on the ceiling, not from the box, I just needed to figure out a way to hang that ring, without hanging it from the box. I put a 2x4 between the ceiling joists just touching the top of the box. I then used long lag screws that reached through holes in the back of the box to bolt the ring to the 2x4 above it to hang the fan. Nothing hanging from the box at all.

2) Fan was on 1st floor, so no attic access to box from above, but same situation regarding wires (making replacing the box a nightmare). Fortunately, the spot directly above the box was in a closet. I drilled through the center of the box (where the threaded tube used to support a ceiling light), all the way through to the floor above, and dropped a 12" long carriage bolt down from above which I used to hang the fan support (with a nyloc nut). So, technically the fan is hanging from the floor above. Yeah, this one was more "outside of the box", but regardless, there's no way the fan is going to come down from this one.

 

[DocRocket]

Here's a how to video on that brace that someone sent to me when hanging my fan. Seems pretty simple.
http://www.familyhandyman.com/video/v/63615093/how-to-install-a-ceiling-fan-brace.htm

The problem with using those from below (and I have used them) is that I still have to:
a) move a bunch of rock wool insulation out of the way,
b) move a bunch of fiberglass batts out of the way,
(these are both hard to accomplish through a 4" hole) and most importantly:
c) figure out where I can cut a 4" hole in the sheet rock so that it does not go through any rafters or through the boards that are probably there to support the ceiling fans. (and I'd rather not have partially cut 4" holes all over the ceiling, I don't enjoy drywall finishing that much).

All of this is much easier from the attic. I was using that type of box regardless, as it is much easier to install, even in the attic, than the "new work" type, which need to be screwed into place, and doing that, in the attic with the drywall in place and insulation all over the place, is a bit painful. The "new work" boxes really seem to be ideal if the drywall is not in yet, and you have full access.