different standards in Europe?

[laser3kw]

Man! - so much.... lost for words.....

 

[mm08822]

Hacks live all over the earth!

I would have used bolts - metric of course.

 

[Metal-Marc]

Screw that.

 

[Debcrow]

Probably just read the instructions. "After installing the wire MAKE SURE the screw is TIGHT"

 

[txvwnut]

Can you believe that ****! I mean who the hell leaves the screws at an angle.

 

[nadogail]

I lived in Spain for a few years while I was on active duty in the US Navy, the Spanish did electrical work "differently".
When my civilian employer sent me to Taiwan, several years after retiring from the Navy, I found that the Taiwanese have their own "different" ways of doing electrical work.
The products that come from the factories in both those countries are generally "good enough".

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

Never a good idea to screw around with electricity.

 

[dcg9381]

Can you believe that ****! I mean who the hell leaves the screws at an angle.

Lol!

 

[Steve.S]

Looks legit to me.

 

[Drill Sergeant Arc]

“Hello, I’m the electrical inspector. Could you show me the U. L. listing for those #6x2-1/2” deck screws? I see you’ll need to separate that ground wire from the neutral deck screw, just provide it with its own termination deck screw. Oh and make sure it’s green, can never be too safe.”

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Never a good idea to screw around with electricity.

 

[Zeke]

Well, I'll jump on the bandwagon: He's screwed.

But, hey, the carpenter needed some power.

 

[MBfreak]

Yes, and our electricity is slower, runs at 50 Hz, so fusing and wire sizes can also be smaller.

But on a more factual point, what I have seen from US distribution systems with single phase garbage cans on poles that lean over 20 degreees and fall down at every mild storm is not impressive, at all. I am of the opinion that distribution systems and residential installations in Europe are very much better than the typical US installations.

Ola

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes, and our electricity is slower, runs at 50 Hz, so fusing and wire sizes can also be smaller.

But on a more factual point, what I have seen from US distribution systems with single phase garbage cans on poles that lean over 20 degreees and fall down at every mild storm is not impressive, at all. I am of the opinion that distribution systems and residential installations in Europe are very much better than the typical US installations.

Ola

if you think thats bad you should come to california. ive seen 3 phase single can pole pigs on a pole leaning way harder than that....

Profit Gouge and Executes distribution infrastructure is in very bad shape because the execs took all the money for themselves... and when the wind blows the trees fall on the lines and start wildfires, killing people in its path... but the utility can do no wrong since theyre in bed with the state and the state wont charge them with crimes.... oh and they blow up neighborhoods with natural gas lines as well

 

[MBfreak]

As an outsider, I keep my mouth shut wrt to all non-technical issues in the US power transmission and distribution.
Some technical issues are in need of change.
All large scale power generation is three phase. Rebuild all distribution to the same, which will decrease losses in a large number of distribution transformer and networks.
There is a VERY competentelectrical power body in the US, NERC. Let them rewrite the phletora of rules into a standardized, nation wide non negotiable rule book.
Increase the number of indoor MV switchgear stations. all with underground cable feeds .
My nightmare example is from New Orleans, close to the Audubon Museum, 200 m from the MIssissippi river. Outdoor 33 kv ( ?) where the entire station is infested with birds nests.
On real estate worth zillions. Scrap and replace with indoor metal clad which will occupy less than 10 % of present area and pay for itself.

Ola

 

[Norcal]

As an outsider, I keep my mouth shut wrt to all non-technical issues in the US power transmission and distribution.
Some technical issues are in need of change.
All large scale power generation is three phase. Rebuild all distribution to the same, which will decrease losses in a large number of distribution transformer and networks.
There is a VERY competentelectrical power body in the US, NERC. Let them rewrite the phletora of rules into a standardized, nation wide non negotiable rule book.
Increase the number of indoor MV switchgear stations. all with underground cable feeds .
My nightmare example is from New Orleans, close to the Audubon Museum, 200 m from the MIssissippi river. Outdoor 33 kv ( ?) where the entire station is infested with birds nests.
On real estate worth zillions. Scrap and replace with indoor metal clad which will occupy less than 10 % of present area and pay for itself.
tut

It does not work like that, 50 States have 50 sets of rules, which is what the writers of the US constitution intended & it has worked rather well.

 

[Lassen Forge]

When we moved away from the tinderbox which is now Northern California, we had all these overhead lines shoving 12KV to trashcan transformers... we'd get a wind storm, and bam. power out. Snowstorm, pow, fire out. THEN they decided after the feather river canyon fire (AKA the Dixie fire) they'd have precautionary shutdowns if weather conditions warranted. You knew when the power was coming back on as the helecopters inspecting the lines would fly overhead. That was about the time they were told Shigletown (where we lived) was the next Paradise... they had (and have) contractor crews (CNUC, out of Canada, fer chrisesakes) who inspect the trees and lines, and send out crews to keep a certain distance between trees and electrical lines.

We had a facility (Pulga) that was across the canyon from the infamous tower (the one with the broken support arm) that started the Dixie fire... Someone said later that had Pilfer, Gouge, and Extort inspected the thing they would have found that it was effed up BEFORE the wind storm that caused it to fail.

Undergrounding would have been the correct move, but it was cheaper to leave the old infra in place. The threat was "you'll see your electricity bills triple if you force us to do that"... of course, they up the rates as frequently as the PUC will allow... so, well, yeah.

I was told once they did a cost/risk analysis, and it was cheaper to fight the lawsuits, pay the ones they lost, and keep on stuffing $$$ in their pockets, rather than actually FIX the problem. I think Paradise and Greenville MAY have changed that, tho we decided not to stick around and find out.

At least here, the houses are made of stone and brick, so there's less danger of losig your home in a wildfire....

As an outsider, I keep my mouth shut wrt to all non-technical issues in the US power transmission and distribution.
Some technical issues are in need of change.
All large scale power generation is three phase. Rebuild all distribution to the same, which will decrease losses in a large number of distribution transformer and networks.
There is a VERY competentelectrical power body in the US, NERC. Let them rewrite the phletora of rules into a standardized, nation wide non negotiable rule book.
Increase the number of indoor MV switchgear stations. all with underground cable feeds .
My nightmare example is from New Orleans, close to the Audubon Museum, 200 m from the MIssissippi river. Outdoor 33 kv ( ?) where the entire station is infested with birds nests.
On real estate worth zillions. Scrap and replace with indoor metal clad which will occupy less than 10 % of present area and pay for itself.

Ola

 

[MBfreak]

Norcal
q It does not work like that, 50 States have 50 sets of rules, which is what the writers of the US constitution intended & it has worked rather well.uq
Hope the same doctrine does not apply to Nuclear Power stations.

Ola

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hope the same doctrine does not apply to Nuclear Power stations.

Ola

thank god it does not. all nuke plants are regulated by the NRC- nuclear regulatory commission which is federal...

 

[oldmachinenut]

Hacks live all over the earth!

I would have used bolts - metric of course.

And 10.9 grade to carry the amperage

 

[oldmachinenut]

Meanwhile at the pole

 

[Wiz02]

The cost arguments for keeping transformers on wooden poles, makes little sense to me. We can do better than relying on 1800's technology in the 21st century. Weather is more severe and people are more reliant on electricity than ever before. The Electrical distribution network needs a transformational upgrade.

 

[Norcal]

The cost arguments for keeping transformers on wooden poles, makes little sense to me. We can do better than relying on 1800's technology in the 21st century. Weather is more severe and people are more reliant on electricity than ever before. The Electrical distribution network needs a transformational upgrade.

You willing to pay for undergrounding?

 

[Wiz02]

You willing to pay for undergrounding?

Why the hell not, putting up poles and having Mother Nature knock them down, causing fires, lost productivity and importantly injuries and loss of life, costs more than just $$$.

Plus the grid needs to be updated anyway, old technology has it's place but I don't think that this is it.

 

[MBfreak]

Use three phase distribution ( ie 4 to 75 kV for US I think) with impedance grounding of around 15 A. Can be made for both Y and D coupled distribution transformers. Great way to minimize fire at ground faults.
Use indoor switchgear with minimal number or no disconnectors ( In the IEC world we use DCB`s, disconnecting Circuit Breakers from 45 kV to 850 kV)
If space is extremely expensive, build GIS. Today all major manufacturers have SF6 free insulation and switching gases. SF6 is around 20000 times as antigreen as CO2.
Use a phasor measuring module and collect data for all substations, valuable at post mortem and may even be able to signal that a network collapse is about to occur unless switching is immediately done. I sold 20 prototypes to a North American utility 1998.

Ola

 

[MBfreak]

WRT having federal rules on power networks. Was suggested after th Cluster F--k that switched off all of northeast US long time ago.(80`s?)
Utilities refused and started the VERY competent NERC "institute". All the absolutely best power engineers and scientists work there. Easily on the same level as HQ in Canada or IEEE/IEC senior members.

And let NERC make modern rules that will become binding at all levels

And that´s it from me.

Ola

 

[Dagny]

underground is not without problems.

 

[Old tool guy]

underground is not without problems.

Asking out of ignorance. Can overhead conductors carry more amperage because they are air cooled, whereas underground conductors would be in conduit.

 

[Dagny]

This is a can of worms.

 

[Drill Sergeant Arc]

Back when Montgomery Wards went bankrupt we were hired to debrand some stores in our area. At one location we were to take all the signage off a closed Wards Auto Service Center and had to work around/with a crew of sheet metal installers who had been hired to replace the old metal on the back of the parapet where dozens of holes were needed for the old signage high voltage supply conduits.

The metal guys had arrived before us and had removed some of the transformers and enclosures, conduit, and disconnected the primary supply. I’m a pretty easy going guy and can understand their desire to get started asap and the primary was obviously dead but I wanted to let them know, if they didn’t know already, that those transformer’s had 15,000 volts at the secondary terminals. So, just be careful.

One of the guys just laughed and said that’s nothing, when the guy that removed the electrical equipment needs some electrical power for running power tools, and there isn’t any receptacles available, he’s got a an extension cord with the plug cut off and he just hot taps with a sheet metal screw and nutdriver into one of the service entrance conductors at the meter drop. WOW!

 

[Lassen Forge]

You willing to pay for undergrounding?

Actually - we were paying for undergrouonding, but istead the money was giving shareholders a better return and the continued debacle of decomissioning things like Diablo Cyn (don't get me started on that) and the demolition of Humboldt bay and... well... damn.
Seriously. IF it were a priority, PG&E COULD HAVE undergrounded a LOT of the agen overhead infra they have, but it's cheaper to roll the dice and hire lawyers. After all, "What would the shareholders say???"

Ya know... I get that undergrounding (especially up in northeast california, where the big trees grow) is expensive and difficult... BUT... When you have a company that says "Hey, if the town burns down, our lawyers will get us out of it, and it'll be cheaper than the infra we could have been upgrading and installing for the past, IDK, 70 years".... WE, the rate payers, have been paying for infra maintenance and upgrades (including undergrounding where feasable) for, yeesh, decades now, and instead it gets routed to the "deferred" colum because, hey, our priority isn't infrastructure, it's investor relations.

That's PG&E. I mean, what are a few dead people and totalled out towns where thousands lived that had no reason to burn except for that effing disaster? Especially when it means our shareholders and execs won't get the return they feel they deserve.... because... Grrr....

And we won't even mention San Bruno and the entire fragile as hell ancient NG delivery system, OK?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The cost arguments for keeping transformers on wooden poles, makes little sense to me. We can do better than relying on 1800's technology in the 21st century. Weather is more severe and people are more reliant on electricity than ever before. The Electrical distribution network needs a transformational upgrade.

You realize how expensive and how devastating it is to the forests to underground primary wire?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Why the hell not, putting up poles and having Mother Nature knock them down, causing fires, lost productivity and importantly injuries and loss of life, costs more than just $$$.

Plus the grid needs to be updated anyway, old technology has it's place but I don't think that this is it.

I hope you realize how expensive profit gouge and executes rates are which in some tiers is over 40cents per kWh. If you add on the costs to underground all equipment i wouldnt be surprused if most rate tiers get pushed close to 60cents or more per kWh....

In terms of the grid needing to be updated, yes Pacific Graft and Extortions distribution grid is in bad need of upgrades. Too bad the execs pissed all the money away on salaries and bonuses. The utility has gone bankrupt many times...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Use three phase distribution ( ie 4 to 75 kV for US I think) with impedance grounding of around 15 A. Can be made for both Y and D coupled distribution transformers. Great way to minimize fire at ground faults.
Use indoor switchgear with minimal number or no disconnectors ( In the IEC world we use DCB`s, disconnecting Circuit Breakers from 45 kV to 850 kV)
If space is extremely expensive, build GIS. Today all major manufacturers have SF6 free insulation and switching gases. SF6 is around 20000 times as antigreen as CO2.
Use a phasor measuring module and collect data for all substations, valuable at post mortem and may even be able to signal that a network collapse is about to occur unless switching is immediately done. I sold 20 prototypes to a North American utility 1998.

Ola

Yeah that all requires money. Profits Gone Elsewhere doesnt have the money for all that. Theyve gone bankrupt many times...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Asking out of ignorance. Can overhead conductors carry more amperage because they are air cooled, whereas underground conductors would be in conduit.

No, underground would just need more insulation and the ground stays cooler than the air out here in the central valley where temps can sore well past 100* in the summer...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Actually - we were paying for undergrouonding, but istead the money was giving shareholders a better return and the continued debacle of decomissioning things like Diablo Cyn (don't get me started on that) and the demolition of Humboldt bay and... well... damn.
Seriously. IF it were a priority, PG&E COULD HAVE undergrounded a LOT of the agen overhead infra they have, but it's cheaper to roll the dice and hire lawyers. After all, "What would the shareholders say???"

Ya know... I get that undergrounding (especially up in northeast california, where the big trees grow) is expensive and difficult... BUT... When you have a company that says "Hey, if the town burns down, our lawyers will get us out of it, and it'll be cheaper than the infra we could have been upgrading and installing for the past, IDK, 70 years".... WE, the rate payers, have been paying for infra maintenance and upgrades (including undergrounding where feasable) for, yeesh, decades now, and instead it gets routed to the "deferred" colum because, hey, our priority isn't infrastructure, it's investor relations.

That's PG&E. I mean, what are a few dead people and totalled out towns where thousands lived that had no reason to burn except for that effing disaster? Especially when it means our shareholders and execs won't get the return they feel they deserve.... because... Grrr....

And we won't even mention San Bruno and the entire fragile as hell ancient NG delivery system, OK?

You forget that it wasnt their lawyers that got them out of trouble but instead the very state government agencies charged with regulating them and governor newsalini himself... its no wonder why when you find out that CalPers is a major investor of Profits Gone Elsewhere among other government agencies... if Profit Gouge & Execute ultimately fails, then there will be huge fallout in the financial investments industry...

Hell newsalini himself among other sucramento lawmakers, took bribes from them.

Most state lawmakers took PG&E money, did yours keep it?

Eight out of 10 members of the California legislature accepted campaign donations from corporate felon PG&E. Here's who gave it back and who didn't.

www.abc10.com

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Also checkout Abc10s documentary on this subject

FIRE - POWER - MONEY

With California’s wildfires growing deadlier and bigger than ever, ABC10 examines the connection between wildfires, PG&E and its influence on California politics.

www.abc10.com

 

[Dagny]

Here the frost goes as far as 8 feet where the snow is plowed off. This brings rocks to the surface and on their way they shave insulation off wires causing open circuits and leakage.

 

[Wiz02]

Come on guys, putting xfrmers on poles is what Edison did, there's got to be a better way. This isn’t a bowling alley where there is a machine to stand the pins back up when mother nature knocks them down.

Utilities have monopolies because short term profits shouldn't be the primary measure of success for certain services. Just because a utility may be poorly managed is not a reason to avoid progress.

I am not saying that burying transmission line is a panacea, but power grid engineers need more tools in their toolbox than wooden poles or metal poles for that matter.

 

[Jagmandave]

Putting transformers underground isn't necessarily a great idea either. I was at work one day in Sandy Eggo when had a big rainstorm blow thru, a transformer blew and sent the car parked over the top of it about 20 feet into the air......made one HELL of a bang when it went too!