Dimensioning New Shop

[pgtr]

Background: New neighborhood is pretty picky about things like metal shops - all has to look like house (stucco, rock, hip roof...), etc... Not a lot of space on the lot anyway - rather snug fit. And in the interest of cost I'm trying to be reasonable but minimal in the design and size of the shop. So no I'm not trying for a mega-warehouse.

The architect produced a sketch of a 23Dx25W shop w/ a cutout on the side for a covered entry door.

Because my cars tend to have very LONG doors (think 3rd gen FBody (FBird/Camaro) for example) I'm thinking of pushing towards about 26'8" inside dimension for width. I don't need 2 cars doors wide open at the same time - but I don't want to smack each car (like can happen in my current 22' wide shop).

Perhaps less critical but looking at pushing the depth from 23 to 24 feet. That gives me a little extra space on the back wall as one side wall for cabinets, bench, etc... and leave the other side wall less used.

They proposed 9' plate height. For 2 cars w/ say 48" height each, 1 stacked above the other w/ a 4 post storage lift - is that enough margin for space? Or consider pushing to 10' plate height.

They started w/ a standard 16' door. I'm considering 18' door. I loose a little wall space in the corners (which I've effectively used in the past for shelves in corners) but makes it easier to space cars apart a bit...

Here's a rough sketch. Thanks for any comments, feedback...

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, Present your architect's ideas to the neighborhood design review committee and make your best case for a variance.

I have found that I can catch more butterflies with honey than I can with vinegar.

 

[pgtr]

Actually I don't need any variance for the proposed wood construction design.

* I'm looking for feedback on whether going from 9' to 10' plate height is worth it for stacking 2 cars approx 48" ea in height w/ a 4-post lift?

* Also any feedback on stepping up from a standard 16' door to a wider 18' door on the front...?

* Finally any feedback on overhead storage? I'm not as familiar w/ hip roof framing so I don't know how much room might be above the ceiling joists to put down a few sheets of plywood to store boxes, parts and what not. Or I could hang a storage loft at the back wall say at 7'. Then if I went w/ 10' wall plate would have about 3' of deep shelf storage accessible via step ladder...

Thanks for any feedback...

 

[u2slow]

Actually I don't need any variance for the proposed wood construction design.

That's good! I deliberately avoided variance also. I built to the bylaw maximums (sqft & height) because I would never be able to afford to do it again, and no further outbuildings allowed. It's still cramped for what I do... so very glad I didn't build smaller.

 

[Don1357]

Yes, redraw that for as big as they will allow including the 10' ceiling if using a 4 post lift, and then draw it bigger so you can try and get a variance for it.

Show of hands: how many here regret having too much space on their garages? And if yes, how big is that monstrosity of yours?

 

[ZX3ST]

I don't think even 10ft ceiling will be quite enough to stack 2 cars. It will be very close. I don't see 9ft happening.

Consider that even with the low-headroom option on your overhead door, the door tracks will be roughly 1ft lower than the ceiling. You need room to have the door open with car #1 in the air.

EDIT: Just to clarify, clearance will depend on door (and ceiling) height. What height door do you intend to use?

I would very carefully sketch everything out. If the building were deeper you could shift everything forward to clear the door.

For what it's worth as a data point:
The parking area of my shop is 25wide x 28deep. 9ft ceiling. 8ft overhead doors with low-headroom track. (so doors open at roughly 8ft)

I personally think that is the minimum width I'd like to have with large 2-door cars.

I don't have a 4-post, but on my 2-post, I cannot open the overhead door with the car in the air.

I ran outside and whipped out the tape measure. Factoring in the runway thickness of a typical 4-post lift I'm pretty sure I couldn't fit 2 late-model Mustangs in my 9ft ceiling. Granted, I'm losing a little headroom due to my door opener. But even without it I'm positive it wouldn't clear the door itself when rolled up. My Shelby is right at 53in tall. I didn't realize the ole F-bodies were that much shorter!

 

[loganb]

I'm with ZX3ST, go taller. Not often(ever?) have I heard here that someone says "wish I had less headroom".

I've got 10' to 11' headroom now(depending on where in the garage) and I at first thought it was just "dead air" but it's actually rather "freeing" and helps make the space feel much more open. I have headroom to put a lift if I decide, plenty of space for shelves around the upper walls and can still swing 8 or 9' boards freely while making expensive firewood with even more expensive tools.

In your case, knowing you want 2 high, I'd try and figure out the height of the car likely on top at the raised position, then size the walls to get at least 12" more of clear height between garage and car roof. You can get high clearance tracks to possibly hug the roofline and help with clearance, but it's no substitute for wall height.

 

[ZX3ST]

I just realized I didn't address door width. No way on this earth will I ever settle for a 16ft wide door again. I'd go 18ft and maybe even consider the possibility of 20ft.

I have a pair of 10ft wide doors with about 18in gap between them. Door room is comfortable. My truck's a bit tight I need to watch the mirrors when I pull in. I have the dent in the exterior flashing to prove it.

 

[mille755]

I'd go with two single doors as well, usually ends up looking classier. If not 16' is the minimum two car garage door size, you shouldn't settle for that.

 

[pgtr]

My Corvettes are 48" ea.

My 3rd gen FBody is 53" +-1" I only mentioned 'just in case' it but it will not likely be stacked.

Ceiling can be 9' or 10' plate height.

Door would likely be standard 7' (x 16' or 18'). The door tracks would be 'high lift' going all the way up to the ceiling joints before curving over to horizontal and hugging the ceiling.

I didn't really see a problem w/ the GA door height as the lift would be assembled inside.

Opener could be either traditional center mount or a wall mount job. (input?)

I pretty much have to go wide/shallow not just because of lot lines but also contour of land.

I agree, 2 single-car doors look good. That's what we're leaning towards on the attached GA for the daily drivers (which is visible from the side street). But the shop GA door is not visible from the front (the shop back wall backs up to the side street). I was simply leaning towards a double-door to give options for other equipment rolling in and out and even 'angling' something in etc... A lift of any type (2-post, 4-post) may not be installed initially anyway.

Oh don't I want a huge, tall shop! But also trying to stick to budget on overall house construction. I've further reduced the size of my home-office and a few other spots to offset increase in shop size (plus $/SF is a little better in shop vs finished house - though not that much).

 

[loganb]

Especially with a lift in mind, I would use side mounted door opener vs the center mounted as that will help clear up the headroom for the cars. I'm considering swapping my single bay opener for a side mount to free up headroom as its the area I intend to do most of the woodworking in...probably a next year project after I get a winter of usage in.

Would definitely do 10' wall studs if it was me, your cars are short that should give enough height. Haven't ever compared costs to see what might be cheapest if you need more height...taller studs, a stem wall or changing up rafter design...local building requirements may come into play here. Any thoughts on what lighting you'll be using or anything else hanging down from the ceiling to consider?

Also a fan of wider doors....18' minimum but if the space exists would do 20. I too am storing things in that deadzone between the door opening and the walls, but its not a "good" storage spot in my mind, just trying to make the best of a dead space. Would much rather have a more gracious garage door opening that I use multiple times a day than a spot of clamps/brooms/other tall skinny things I use periodically

Sent from The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[ZX3ST]

Someone should correct me if I'm wrong but a 7ft door with 9ft ceiling gets a standard radius track and that there's really no such thing as a high-lift in that application? Even if it's a thing, you're still losing 6-8" of headroom. You might get away with it if you park the top car backwards.

Anyways ignoring all that, many lift manufacturers recommend figuring for 8" in addition to the total height of both cars. I personally would add another 3" to that number to account for hitting the next closest locking bar on the column.

So that puts you at 48+48+8 (+3 if you want to figure for that mentioned fluff)

Assuming no overhead door interference, no other obstructions (like lights), and your finished ceiling height comes out to exactly 9ft, you have bout 1inch of wiggle room.

I don't know what the cost delta is to go to 10ft but I think it's a no-brainer here.

 

[travisn1]

I'm with ZX3ST, go taller. Not often(ever?) have I heard here that someone says "wish I had less headroom".

My barn has 16' plates and it's too much. The previous guy stored his RV in there. I think 14' would be better, maybe 12 with a pocket between the rafters for the lift posts to go in. I was able to easily fit the OH-10x lift, which is super nice. Probably ruined for life if I ever move to a place with an existing shop. https://www.gregsmithequipment.com/Atlas-OH-10X-EXTRA-WIDE-EXTRA-TALL

OP, I'd find out the largest you can go w/o a variance, then go see similar sized buildings and see if it will work. A 4 post lift is a space commitment that you can't easily scoot out of the way for a project requiring more space (engine removal, etc)

 

[Steve W.]

Background: New neighborhood is pretty picky about things like metal shops - all has to look like house (stucco, rock, hip roof...), etc...

Does the whole shop have to match the house or can you get by with just the side that faces the street?

I was told that the architcture of the outbuilding had to compliment the architecture of the house. I have a brick house with a hip roof, about 3/12 pitch. I asked how much of the shop had to match, as in, did I have to build a brick shop. I was told it had to match at least 10%. OK, 8' to the eaves, I could put a band of brick 0.8' high around the base and be legal? Before he could answer, I said that would look ridiculous and was willing to just do the front face in brick. They admitted that was OK, so I have brick on the side facing the street and vinyl siding on the other three sides.

The contractor actually found a brick that was a 100% match to the existing brick. Color, size, texture. Could not ask for a better match.

.

 

[pgtr]

I'm 'pretty' sure that you can extend the tracks up an extra foot or so w/ a 9' ceiling before radiusing horizontal on track doors.

If I go w/ 18' doors - the tracks would be sufficiently pushed out to the outboard sides to not interfere w/ a 4-post lift too.

I'm defininetely going to ask about the cost difference for 10' wall studs.

Yes, house and detached shop pretty much have to match - and w/ a corner lot - I'm exposed on the side (the back of the shop in fact). While the house will be about 50% stone and 50% stucco - I'm planning to try and get away w/ a lot more stucco on the shop - particularly the back sides (and the front is mostly door). It is what it is and we knew that going in.

I mounted 4F flourescents to the ceiling joists in my current shop years ago. I had not thought about lighting yet - probably LED something...

 

[pgtr]

SHIFTING GEARS SLIGHTLY... Do I need WIDER Garage to Accomodate 2 Single Doors (vs 1 double door)?

On this same new house build project - I need to determine what if any changes to the attached garage width. The shop will be directly opposite the attached GA w/ pavement in between but I'm talking about the attached garage - NOT the detached SHOP. The attached garage will basically be just for our daily drivers and nothing else really.

For the attached GA, contractor proposed 22W by 24D with a standard 16F door. I've checked and for my mid-size crew cab truck and her mid-size 4-dr - it's perfect.

BUT if I want to switch to a pair of single doors - I'd likely go with two 9-foot doors. By my calcs - I'd end up with: 2F outboard side space, 9F door, 1F center space, 9F door, 2F (other outboard) side space. Which adds up to 23F - 1 foot WIDER than he proposed.

Assuming the cars are parked perfectly in the middle of the space defined by the 9F doors - I think I need 2F of wall on the outboard sides of the 9F doors. The 1F center space spacing is my own guess but with a stone/stucco siding - much thinner may not look that good. It also seems to be the driver for widening the attached GA from 22F to 23F overall width if going from a double (16 (or 18)) door to a pair of single 9s.

I end up w/ a little extra space (and thus cost) on the spacing between the cars but I think the aesthetics look better on the outside...

Maybe I can get the outboard sides to say 21" ea and the support column to 6".

Anybody agree or disagree w/ my calcs on need to widen the attached GA by the width of the center space if going from a 16F double door to two single 9F doors?

Here's a few images: 1st two just illustate door and front wall widths of attached GA - not realistic otherwise. The 3rd shows shop location relative to attached garage / house (they are actually a little further apart (35F) - I squeezed them together to make image smaller). Side street is behind shop (left) and front street would be way up at top above structures (North).

 

[pgtr]

Getting BACK to my primary focus here - the detached SHOP and Adding storage loft or space to hip roof construction?

My current shop is 22W (16F door) and 26D by 8F tall. It's a gable roof common rafter construction. In the space immediately aft of the GA door opening - I put in two plywood sheets in the roof joists w/ extra supports and use this to store mostly car parts and such. The way the rafters are framed there's plenty of room above sheets (can't stand but I can stoop). I access it w/ the GA closed via a step ladder is all. I also added a deep shelf at the opposite end about 6.5F up and suspended it from a rafter. Here's a couple pix below of my current shop if that helps...

Planning new house construction w/ detached shop. I'll almost certainly be going w/ a hip roof at 9F or maybe 10F plate height. Not being as familiar w/ hip roof framing (seems more complicated and less space friendly?) what might my options be for storage space up there? I'm planning to have them leave the ceiling unfinished (foam in the roof would be exposed).

I like the open rafters for storage of long boards and what not above the joists. Heat can migrate up there while the lower area is cooled w/ A/C.

Maybe I build some deep shelves hanging down around edges at say 7F and have 2-3F of space above it?

And/or there might be space above the joists say in the middle area where I might have room for a sheet or 2 of decking and maybe even some good height? Install a pull-down ladder (safer at that height) or get a taller step ladder...

Looking for feedback and ideas on storage for someone going from a simple gable to a hip structure... Thanks!

Give you an idea of where I'm coming from - 1st pick is of 2 sheets I put above joists over door. 2nd pick is of storage in back of shop suspended from joists (basically just big shelves):

 

[logical]

SHIFTING GEARS SLIGHTLY... Do I need WIDER Garage to Accomodate 2 Single Doors (vs 1 double door)?



On this same new house build project - I need to determine what if any changes to the attached garage width. The shop will be directly opposite the attached GA w/ pavement in between but I'm talking about the attached garage - NOT the detached SHOP. The attached garage will basically be just for our daily drivers and nothing else really.



For the attached GA, contractor proposed 22W by 24D with a standard 16F door. I've checked and for my mid-size crew cab truck and her mid-size 4-dr - it's perfect.



BUT if I want to switch to a pair of single doors - I'd likely go with two 9-foot doors. By my calcs - I'd end up with: 2F outboard side space, 9F door, 1F center space, 9F door, 2F (other outboard) side space. Which adds up to 23F - 1 foot WIDER than he proposed.



Assuming the cars are parked perfectly in the middle of the space defined by the 9F doors - I think I need 2F of wall on the outboard sides of the 9F doors. The 1F center space spacing is my own guess but with a stone/stucco siding - much thinner may not look that good. It also seems to be the driver for widening the attached GA from 22F to 23F overall width if going from a double (16 (or 18)) door to a pair of single 9s.



I end up w/ a little extra space (and thus cost) on the spacing between the cars but I think the aesthetics look better on the outside...



Maybe I can get the outboard sides to say 21" ea and the support column to 6".



Anybody agree or disagree w/ my calcs on need to widen the attached GA by the width of the center space if going from a 16F double door to two single 9F doors?



Here's a few images: 1st two just illustate door and front wall widths of attached GA - not realistic otherwise. The 3rd shows shop location relative to attached garage / house (they are actually a little further apart (35F) - I squeezed them together to make image smaller). Side street is behind shop (left) and front street would be way up at top above structures (North).

The part of my L shaped 3 car where the two daily drivers generally sit is just 22w with an 18 ft door. Her Lincoln MKX is on left. She can open drivers door to 2nd detent but not to limit...which is not really a problem. To get my F150 far enough right so she can't possibly open a passenger side door into my truck...and she eventually would if possible...I have to just miss the door edge with my right mirror and with a few ladders and such on the right wall wouldn't want most people getting in the passenger side. Its not a big deal for us, no kids, I also have a car in 3rd bay and 99% of the time am alone in the truck.

I think 24 wide, 18 ft door is the way to go even with your slightly smaller vehicles. If the MKX comes in hot and she lands the back end even 5 inches too far right my whole system falls apart.

I think two 9 foot doors is too much going on within 22 ft and within 24 ft is not really the vehicle spacing you want unless the center wall section is 18 inches or less.

Make sure that 24 feet means the same thing to you as it does to your builder...inside wall to wall or outside of finished exterior?
Sent from my garage.

 

[pgtr]

Thanks for the confirmation

I'm at 23F overall min width for two 9F doors (leaving a little extra in middle between cars)
I'm at 22F overall min width for a single 18F door

Yep - we're on the same page - interior dimensions.

 

[pgtr]

Thanks for the confirmation

I'm at 23F overall min width for two 9F doors (leaving a little extra in middle between cars)

I'm at 22F overall min width for a single 18F door

Yep - we're on the same page - interior dimensions.

 

[Redwngr]

Now make the door(s) at least 8 ft tall instead of 7.

You (or a purchaser) may want to put a enclosed utility trailer inside. Many will be close even with 8ft door height.

 

[CraigStu]

No way would I ever go w/ two single doors. Well maybe two 16s. Had that at a previous house so never again. That post in the middle is a pure pain in the neck. If this was just for parking two daily driver cars maybe it would be ok. But you have a lift, and are asking about stacking for storage, so there will be more going on than just parking.

 

[pgtr]

Interesting - I might look into an 8' door height.

On the detached shop - it will an 18' door - NOT a pair of 9' doors.

The discussion on 9' single doors is for the attached GA (NOT the detached shop) for the daily drivers. It's what we have today and are used to it - no biggee.

 

[Steve W.]

In my opinion, try to avoid the hip roof. I have one on the house, the gable roof on the shop is SO much nicer.

.