Dirt work 40x60 Pole Building

[Hurricanoday]

I finally got my permit approved and issued. I have some questions about my site and what I should do. I had a dozer come in and "level" my site. Well long story short the builder is now saying since there is some fill dirt used to make my site level there is gonna be some additional costs.

Change order price for accommodating the longer post due the fill on site is $1466.00. That includes the difference in cost for the posts, the extra concrete, allowance for the additional time for drilling deeper holes and drill bit extensions.

Does that sound normal?

I have posted some before and after pictures. Basically we moved dirt from the right to left. I needed to take some from the hill to be able to drive in so he just spread it out. At first the builder was saying there is 3 feet of fill and I said no way. So I went out and dug some holes, not exact but (see the attached) the bottom hole is about 18 or 19 inch of fill not compacted. I sent him these same pictures and he said he would get back to me.

Guess my question is what are my options?

1 I could move my building closer to the hill (right) to stay farther away from the left side fill.

2 Pay the dirt guy to move the dirt I just paid him to put there and try to get to "undisturbed soil" but probably have some drainage issues

3 Pay the extra money to the builder due to the fill

 

[Hurricanoday]

Here is what it looked like in the summer before grade. Pictures 11/13 show the hill on the right and you can see the drop off in picture 14. I have the building starting pretty close to the stump to the left of the big tree.

I am really contemplating having come back out and just take the site down. I'm no dirt expert but I didn't expect him to have all the fill. Its just the drop off on the left is there and with me wanting to keep the building back to the left is what is causing the issues.

To my untrained eye I didn't think the site would need that much work, but you can see it is higher by the fence and slopes down and to the left.

 

[Pig9r]

So you have 18" of fill in one corner which was compacted by the dozer. I don't get how that would require the poles to be longer? Was he not going to build a level building to begin with? If anything it should save him money by not having to add extra mud boards on the bottom along those sides to cover the gap between the bottom of the metal and grade or extra rock if he is doing the floor. Either way I don't see how that changes the length of his posts. There is dirt occupying where there would have been nothing. He does have to dig through the extra fill but that's not an issue. Every builder I had bid my barn wanted to start with a level site and I did exactly what you did.

 

[scottydosnntkno]

Most post foundations require undisturbed soil. Fill that's been ran over by a dozer is hardly considered compacted from and engineering standpoint.

So now he has to dig farther to undisturbed soil, and use longer posts. You can still put the slab on the fill but not the footers/posts.

For the $1500 he wants, around here i couldn't get a dozer to even touch it at that price to push the dirt back. So you paid to push the dirt, and now want to repay to push it back instead of paying the builder for his extra work and a level site, which is what your u wanted.

 

[Pig9r]

Most post foundations require undisturbed soil. Fill that's been ran over by a dozer is hardly considered compacted from and engineering standpoint.

Look at the plans the OP attached. How does that change the length of the posts from the original plan? He didn't change grade just added fill to the low areas. Which is what you would do to have a level floor. The only difference is the builder has to dig through 18" or less of fill for a few poles.

 

[P Dubya]

A dozer is not for compaction. The tracks are there for traction and flotation. If the soil was not compacted in layers as it was put in the will be settlement issues. Not sure what to say about the price as I don't deal with the materials cost on this sort of thing very much but I think that an extra $1500 bucks spent on a firm foundation is probably a good choice...

 

[chaosracing]

As mentioned above, the poles must be in undisturbed soil. If you had an engineered and properly compacted fill, then you would not have the issue.

But if going by the measurements on the plan in the first picture, $1500 seems steep to me. However, you will spend way more than that having the dozer come back out and remove the soil you just paid to move in the first place.
Not sure what your frost depth requirements are where you live, but here its 3 feet. So going by that and that augers are 4'+, there really should no concern about extra equipment. They might have to hand dig the one hole a little deeper, but thats no big deal. Not sure if they are using bag or truck concrete to set the poles, but that little bit of concrete should not be that much either. Now unless he already ordered the poles and has to reorder them, the little bit of extra pole is not a big deal either.

Before you get into a fight with your GC and sour the relationship, ask for a breakdown of the extra. Ask him to break down all the costs as extra for poles, extra for concrete, extra for digging holes. Maybe have him come out and do a site visit as well.

 

[Hurricanoday]

Dirt mover and builder are different, but yes Pig9r is correct. They quoted me to build on my "level site" they are just saying that going through extra fill wasn't part of the deal. I was just wondering if that is correct. Even the dirt guy said some fill shouldn't change the length of the poles. Me not knowing a lot about construction, I assume if they have to go down 3 feet in native soil and I add 2 feet on top of that then that is where the issue is coming from. Wouldn't the poles be longer?

The 1500 is from the builder for costs of extra pole length, labor for additional drilling depth, concrete and supposedly an auger extension because of the fill. I called the dirt guy back over because his reaction was the same as what you guys are saying. Then we dug some holes to find the native soil and get an idea of how much fill is in that corner

The dozer guy said he could come back and take off a foot, but was worried about drainage and county issues. I would have to either pay the dozer guy again to grade what he just did or pay the extra to the builder.

 

[Pig9r]

A dozer is not for compaction. The tracks are there for traction and flotation. If the soil was not compacted in layers as it was put in the will be settlement issues. Not sure what to say about the price as I don't deal with the materials cost on this sort of thing very much but I think that an extra $1500 bucks spent on a firm foundation is probably a good choice...

Once again, how does 18" of fill on top change the ground where the poles are being placed? It is still the same amount of virgin ground whether the fill is there or not. Grade did not change. The poles should go in the same distance from grade. I am sure the OP wants a level floor so it will be backfilled either way. It's a lot easier to do it now then later.

 

[MagKarl]

Do not compromise on drainage. Figure that out now and establish where in space the grade line at the building will be.

I too cannot see how bringing up the low side will require longer poles.

 

[chaosracing]

Once again, how does 18" of fill on top change the ground where the poles are being placed? It is still the same amount of virgin ground whether the fill is there or not. Grade did not change. The poles should go in the same distance from grade. I am sure the OP wants a level floor so it will be backfilled either way. It's a lot easier to do it now then later.

But the grade did change so now he needs longer poles to get into virgin undisturbed soil. They need to go thru the fill then thru the virgin soil. So the worst location adds 18 inches to the pole to go thru the fill.

 

[chaosracing]

I would not change the grade especially if drainage will be an issue.

As I mentioned above, get a cost breakdown for the extra, then you can see where the $1500 is coming from. Like I said above, you really did not change the length of the holes or poles by alot so $1500 seems a little high to me. Equipment costs and time to dig the holes really should not change, unless he is hand digging them. Cost for longer poles should only be about $10-$15 per pole (based on an estimate I had done for a building) and concrete is not that expensive, you are talking at most 1-2 bags more per hole for the worst hole (figure $4 per 80lb bag Home Depot prices). If its truck, the cost is already built in, cause I can guarantee they figured a little extra to begin with (I would for a truck)

 

[buddyboy]

did you strip off all the top soil before filling?

how thick was the original top soil?

it depends on the soil conditions at this site... if they had to dig down 30 inches to get to good soil BEFORE adding fill, then the builder has a point, if good soil was just under a foot of topsoil, then no need to dig deeper to get to it.

 

[Pig9r]

But the grade did change so now he needs longer poles to get into virgin undisturbed soil.

Look at the plans and then tell me the same. Half of the building is at grade the other half is low, down to 18" in one corner. So if he didn't level the site there would be an 18" gap between the mud board at the low corner and the ground and at grade it would be flush with the ground. Poles still go into ground same depth either way.

Even if the builder's arguement was valid, there aren't that many poles being they are on 10 foot centers.

 

[minytrker]

A dozer is not for compaction. The tracks are there for traction and flotation. If the soil was not compacted in layers as it was put in the will be settlement issues. Not sure what to say about the price as I don't deal with the materials cost on this sort of thing very much but I think that an extra $1500 bucks spent on a firm foundation is probably a good choice...

I never realized how true that was until using a dozer building a pad and then driving on it with my truck and sinking down.

 

[Hurricanoday]

Look at the plans and then tell me the same. Half of the building is at grade the other half is low, down to 18" in one corner. So if he didn't level the site there would be an 18" gap between the mud board at the low corner and the ground and at grade it would be flush with the ground. Poles still go into ground same depth either way.

Even if the builder's arguement was valid, there aren't that many poles being they are on 10 foot centers.

If I understand this correctly then I should have left my site alone? At first the sales guy was saying I could leave my site how it was (in post 2) and they would build the building from the high side leaving a huge gap around the building then bring in fill.

We haven't even started talking about compaction yet, the slab isn't going in till after the building is up. This is just about adding the extra dirt on top of the native soil and the added costs of the work to drill the holes.

I will be getting a cost breakdown and speaking with the builder again monday. I am hoping with it not being much fill the extra cost will go down. They were assuming that was with 2-3ft of fill all around.

 

[hoppsxc140]

I could understand a charge for additional concrete if the site condition changed after the quote was issued, but that is a small cost. I didn't see a height listed but if it was going to be 12 ft sidewalls it would be 12 ft from the highest point with the gap Pig9r described above. If not there would be trenching involved around the entire area that was already level.

 

[chaosracing]

Look at the plans and then tell me the same. Half of the building is at grade the other half is low, down to 18" in one corner. So if he didn't level the site there would be an 18" gap between the mud board at the low corner and the ground and at grade it would be flush with the ground. Poles still go into ground same depth either way.

Even if the builder's arguement was valid, there aren't that many poles being they are on 10 foot centers.

From the OP first post "So I went out and dug some holes, not exact but (see the attached) the bottom hole is about 18 or 19 inch of fill not compacted."

I am going by this and what is written on the drawing. So this quote and the drawing are saying there is 18" of fill ontop of the existing soil, so that means the poles now have to be longer.

 

[hoppsxc140]

From the OP first post "So I went out and dug some holes, not exact but (see the attached) the bottom hole is about 18 or 19 inch of fill not compacted."

I am going by this and what is written on the drawing. So this quote and the drawing are saying there is 18" of fill ontop of the existing soil, so that means the poles now have to be longer.

They always had to be longer. Regardless if the fill was placed before the post or after.

 

[Pig9r]

From the OP first post "So I went out and dug some holes, not exact but (see the attached) the bottom hole is about 18 or 19 inch of fill not compacted."

I am going by this and what is written on the drawing. So this quote and the drawing are saying there is 18" of fill ontop of the existing soil, so that means the poles now have to be longer.

Yes one corner but not all the way around. Half the posts are at grade. What if he didn't backfill? There still will be an 18" gap in that corner from the mud board to the ground - thus the pole would be the same length irregardless.

 

[chaosracing]

They always had to be longer. Regardless if the fill was placed before the post or after.

Yes one corner but not all the way around. Half the posts are at grade. What if he didn't backfill? There still will be an 18" gap in that corner from the mud board to the ground - thus the pole would be the same length irregardless.

All depends on how the contractor/designer was laying it out. Perhaps they figured to build right on the unlevel site and make up with mud boards. From the pictures of the site before excavation, it is possible the contractor was figuring this. But now has to go deeper. I am in the process of getting prices for a building, and not one person has asked me if the site is level or needs to be filled. Luckily my site is near perfect level and wont need much excavation so I would not run into this problem. If the OP never told them that the site needs to be level, the builder/designer probably figured its level already.

 

[chaosracing]

One thing I cant see since its cut off is the pole details at the bottom of the drawing. But if you look at the drawing, the 4 corner post locations, plus 3 of 4 wall posts call out 24"x36" concrete. That to me is saying the building was designed originally with a level lot on virgin soil.

 

[Pig9r]

All depends on how the contractor/designer was laying it out. Perhaps they figured to build right on the unlevel site and make up with mud boards.

Which means the length of the poles would be the same either way.

My builder required the site to be within 2" of grade.

 

[chaosracing]

Which means the length of the poles would be the same either way.

My builder required the site to be within 2" of grade.

Well according to the OP, his site was at least 18" out of level in the one corner.

No, the length will not be the same (good thing you didnt build your garage yourself)......now he has to go thru fill to hit virgin soil. Now he is adding length to the pole to hit virgin soil at the proper depth. The OP has fill at 18" in one corner, so since building was figured on a level, undisturbed site, now they must go thru the 18" then do the proper depth of 36". Last I looked, 36"(required depth) + 18"(fill) = 54" (unless you are using the new common core math, then if so) that makes the poles longer.

Trust me, I am in the building industry and deal with soils and grade all the time.

 

[Pig9r]

If I understand this correctly then I should have left my site alone?

No not at all. I did exactly what you did. I am saying it shouldn't matter to the builder at all.

I had a coworker not grade prior and had about a 30" drop in one corner on a site that eyeballed "level" to the builder. The builder made up the difference with mud boards then backfilled inside with gravel. Looked like ****. The mud boards were bowing.

If this guy is charging $1500 to go through a little extra fill how much is it going to be if he hits rock?

 

[Pig9r]

Well according to the OP, his site was at least 18" out of level in the one corner.

No, the length will not be the same (good thing you didnt build your garage yourself)......now he has to go thru fill to hit virgin soil. Now he is adding length to the pole to hit virgin soil at the proper depth. The OP has fill at 18" in one corner, so since building was figured on a level, undisturbed site, now they must go thru the 18" then do the proper depth of 36". Last I looked, 36"(required depth) + 18"(fill) = 54" (unless you are using the new common core math, then if so) that makes the poles longer.

Trust me, I am in the building industry and deal with soils and grade all the time.

I think this is like the chicken and the egg argument. I totally see what you are saying but what I am saying is just because the OP backfilled, the poles do not need to be longer - because the ground was not originally level is why. The builder is claiming because there is backfill. If the OP removed the backfill -which he is considering- the poles would still be the same length because the high side (grade) wouldn't change right?

 

[hoppsxc140]

Correct, the building height is based off of the high side. So the OP could push all the fill off the building pad and the 18" is still there. 12ft sidewall + 36" depth + 18" of grade means that corner always required at minimum a 16.5ft post.

 

[chaosracing]

I think this is like the chicken and the egg argument. I totally see what you are saying but what I am saying is just because the OP backfilled, the poles do not need to be longer - because the ground was not originally level is why. The builder is claiming because there is backfill. If the OP removed the backfill -which he is considering- the poles would still be the same length because the high side (grade) wouldn't change right?

Technically, but in order to maintain a level site, now he would have to chew down the side that is level now. The poles would be the same height, but the building would sit lower and potentially have major water issues.

I have said it at least 2 times. Before ticking off the GC, he needs to talk to him. I said before that for what is needed for the extra length in poles should not come out to $1500. This is why I said he should ask for a cost breakdown to see where the GC is coming up with the $1500. After spending all the money he did (he never said cost) I would leave the site alone, especially since he said if he goes back there could be drainage issues. I would work with the GC, but be smart about it. Look to my post from before for approximate costs.

 

[chaosracing]

Here is my approximate cost estimate from before

I would not change the grade especially if drainage will be an issue.

As I mentioned above, get a cost breakdown for the extra, then you can see where the $1500 is coming from. Like I said above, you really did not change the length of the holes or poles by alot so $1500 seems a little high to me. Equipment costs and time to dig the holes really should not change, unless he is hand digging them. Cost for longer poles should only be about $10-$15 per pole (based on an estimate I had done for a building) and concrete is not that expensive, you are talking at most 1-2 bags more per hole for the worst hole (figure $4 per 80lb bag Home Depot prices). If its truck, the cost is already built in, cause I can guarantee they figured a little extra to begin with (I would for a truck)

Going by my costs, I can see an extra $200 to $300, maybe $400 depending on how the concrete is delivered/mixed

 

[Hurricanoday]

I think the "gotcha" part of the contract is that they are providing the bid based on me having a level site. So I assume even if I didn't have the fill to make it flat with the site being lower on the left corner the poles would have to be longer.

I will be speaking with him tomorrow and I will update the post. Hopefully with only having to get a couple of poles longer which brings the cost down.

The dirt work was only about 6 hours at 110 a hour. He said he could probably cut it down in about the same time or less, but estimates it was like 140 yards of dirt to move which is a **** ton. Which the county could get pissed and then the slop on the back and right hill wouldn't have the 2to1 for drainage.

I am weighing the cost of having the tractor come back in vs what ever the price will be from the builder. I could also move the building to the right a lot more closer to the hill but I have a 12x12 door on that side that I wanted to get to with a boat and car hauler. Having the building closer to the hill would get more to the level ground, but would have to take more hill out later.