Dirty power?

[jpcjguy]

Hi all,

So I am wondering if I have a power quality issue as I get some light flickering in some rooms, go through lightbulbs (both regular and LED) faster than I should, gone through a couple TVs, treadmill display failed, etc. I am aware that "stuff" quality is not what it used to be, but I feel like my failure rate of some electronics is higher than it should be.
Is there a way I can monitor to determine if it is in the house wiring itself (1993 build), or coming from the utility? Should I contact them?
Any guidance or thoughts?

Thanks

 

[rlitman]

When you see flickering, is that lights getting brighter or dimmer?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Could be a loose neutral on your service drop. When that happens equipment will see voltage above and below 120 V. Sometimes way above 120 V

 

[rlmartinson]

You can call your utility and tell them you have a power quality issue. They "should" come out and check a few things to eliminate themselves from being the issue. If its not them, then you get to call an electrician.

 

[jpcjguy]

Could be a loose neutral on your service drop. When that happens equipment will see voltage above and below 120 V. Sometimes way above 120 V

So should I call my utility and have them do a thorough inspection on their end? Eliminate that part?

 

[jpcjguy]

You can call your utility and tell them you have a power quality issue. They "should" come out and check a few things to eliminate themselves from being the issue. If its not them, then you get to call an electrician.

just missed this post - will do that

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So should I call my utility and have them do a thorough inspection on their end? Eliminate that part?

Yes

 

[CH4]

Is there a way I can monitor to determine if it is in the house wiring itself (1993 build), or coming from the utility? Should I contact them?
Any guidance or thoughts?

FWIW and depending on your level of expertise .. I *love* IotaWatt equipment.

The number 1 selling point is that it is not connected to any cloud and it is not dependent on any app.

Voltage at my house cycles regularly between 120v and 124v.

 

[SlappyWhite]

Could be a loose neutral on your service drop. When that happens equipment will see voltage above and below 120 V. Sometimes way above 120 V

This is also my guess.

 

[Terry D]

Call the utility right away to see if it is on their end. If it is a neutral issue, depending on what loads are plugged in, your 240 volts coming in is not going to split equally. I would unplug your electronics to be safe

 

[FMB4]

Is your Service wiring strung from a pole, or in ground (likely)? If in ground, make sure that the conduit protecting the Service wiring is not cracked, broken, or miss-coupled, etc. This can, of course, allow water (rain and possibly from any sprinklers) to enter the conduit. We had a relatively minor problem similar to yours that was due to a crack in the Service wiring conduit section between the ground and our meter (which the Power Co. repaired).

 

[Milton Shaw]

Underground electrical services can be attacked by termites. The insulation on wires for the most part is soy based and the termites love it. The bait traps to see if you have termites from what I have been told is just soy insulation pieces. You would not think that wire would be damaged by termites but it is happening in some locations.

 

[rlitman]

Underground electrical services can be attacked by termites. The insulation on wires for the most part is soy based and the termites love it. The bait traps to see if you have termites from what I have been told is just soy insulation pieces. You would not think that wire would be damaged by termites but it is happening in some locations.

That's a new one on me, but seems possible. Termite station sensing baits are a block of pine. The poison baits are sawdust compressed with wax. Basically, Duraflame logs.

edit: So I looked this up. It seems that termites can chew on polyethylene, with LDPE being highly susceptible. Sprinkler irrigation lines are PE, and I've never heard of them being damaged by termites, but I suppose it can happen. So are many water mains and natural gas lines. Still never heard of them causing damage to those either. THWN has a nylon coating that is known to be impervious to termites, and in any case PVC is also impervious to them, which also means that anything underground in PVC conduit is considered safe. Which is funny, because the specific insulation that we see having rodent chewing issues in vehicles is PVC.

So, what underground wires use LDPE? Well, it was used long ago on high voltage cables. And I think I now understand the issue. HV cables have a complex arrangement of insulation, conductors and semiconductor layers that if not adequately protected can fail in spectacular ways when the outer layer is pierced. But it's just not something homeowners need to be concerned with.

 

[ttpete]

A bad connection usually creates heat. I'd be pulling the breaker panel front cover, and using an IR thermometer, checking every breaker and terminal in there for heat. If you have overhead service, you could also check the split bolts on the service drop.

 

[JKJEFF]

Lights at my sons house were dimming. He noticed they dimmed when his neighbors air conditioning started. He has a new panel and new wiring, so he called Edison. They responded with a technician in an hour or two. After some testing they added another transformer that just feeds him and three other houses. This cured his dimming problems.

 

[DaveMcLain]

I have a volt meter on the phase converter in my workshop. At my house the voltage on the single phase varies from 239-246 volts depending on the time of day and weather. In a single phase power system the 120 volt is created by having a center tap(neutral). If that's loose when the current increases on one side it'll pull that side's voltage down BUT the voltage on the other side will increase! That could cause your light bulbs to have a short life.

 

[Worsedog]

I mentioned my experience in a thread about this probably better than five years ago, but it may be of assistance.

I was having an issue with the lights in the house getting bright randomly. I couldn't detect a pattern, A/C start stop, time of day to explain it. I went through the service panel looking for any loose or overheated looking connections, especially neutrals. After finding nothing I contacted the poco. They sent a lineman out and he recrimped all of the entrance splices from the house to the transformer. It didn't really help so I called back and they were less than helpful the second time around.

I have a Fluke multimeter with a peak hold function, so I plugged it into outlets on both side of the panel. In just a few days I saw spikes to a bit over 150v. I called the poco back and was told I didn't know what I was talking about when I requested they put a recording voltmeter on my service to monitor it. I "stretched" the description of my Fluke to a recorder and told them that I was just going to send a bill for my damaged electronics and appliances in the range of $50K if they refused to at least investigate my issue further and asked for the address so my attorney could send it to the correct place the first time.

The next day there was a very nice recording voltmeter attached to my meter base. After 5 days it was gone. Two days later they hung a new transformer on the pole across the street.

 

[ddawg16]

I had similar issues. When i turned on my table saw my wifes puter rebooted.

Opened up my load center, connected my meter to neutral and one hot, had the wife turn on my saw......140 on that leg. Other leg dropped to 90.

I called the power company and told them what i found.

2 days later the PoCo knocks on the door....."Ma'am, we'll be back in a couple of days to install an new transformer "

 

[u3b3rg33k]

I mentioned my experience in a thread about this probably better than five years ago, but it may be of assistance.

I was having an issue with the lights in the house getting bright randomly. I couldn't detect a pattern, A/C start stop, time of day to explain it. I went through the service panel looking for any loose or overheated looking connections, especially neutrals. After finding nothing I contacted the poco. They sent a lineman out and he recrimped all of the entrance splices from the house to the transformer. It didn't really help so I called back and they were less than helpful the second time around.

I have a Fluke multimeter with a peak hold function, so I plugged it into outlets on both side of the panel. In just a few days I saw spikes to a bit over 150v. I called the poco back and was told I didn't know what I was talking about when I requested they put a recording voltmeter on my service to monitor it. I "stretched" the description of my Fluke to a recorder and told them that I was just going to send a bill for my damaged electronics and appliances in the range of $50K if they refused to at least investigate my issue further and asked for the address so my attorney could send it to the correct place the first time.

The next day there was a very nice recording voltmeter attached to my meter base. After 5 days it was gone. Two days later they hung a new transformer on the pole across the street.

A similar situation but without the saber rattling - I got them to install a logging meter, and a few days later they found a breaker in a substation was having issues and my lights stopped flickering.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I mentioned my experience in a thread about this probably better than five years ago, but it may be of assistance.

I was having an issue with the lights in the house getting bright randomly. I couldn't detect a pattern, A/C start stop, time of day to explain it. I went through the service panel looking for any loose or overheated looking connections, especially neutrals. After finding nothing I contacted the poco. They sent a lineman out and he recrimped all of the entrance splices from the house to the transformer. It didn't really help so I called back and they were less than helpful the second time around.

I have a Fluke multimeter with a peak hold function, so I plugged it into outlets on both side of the panel. In just a few days I saw spikes to a bit over 150v. I called the poco back and was told I didn't know what I was talking about when I requested they put a recording voltmeter on my service to monitor it. I "stretched" the description of my Fluke to a recorder and told them that I was just going to send a bill for my damaged electronics and appliances in the range of $50K if they refused to at least investigate my issue further and asked for the address so my attorney could send it to the correct place the first time.

The next day there was a very nice recording voltmeter attached to my meter base. After 5 days it was gone. Two days later they hung a new transformer on the pole across the street.

I had a power issue at a house i used to rent and diagnosed it with my fluke DVM, like you did. it wasnt a loose neutral like yours, though.

every time the disposal was ran, lights would flicker. everything in the panel was good. so i put my fluke 87V onto one hot leg and neutral and turned on the 'min max avg' function and left the meter there. after a day i checked it and voltage had dropped to 100v.

so i called PoCo who sent troubleshooter out

he looked at my meter and agreed something was wrong.

he checked all the splices at the house and transformer. everything looked good. then he checked the splices on the pony pole between transformer pole and my house. when he put his hand one splice, he quickly pulled back and shook his hand. it was really hot. turns out the splice was bad. so he added another... and the problem went away.

 

[Worsedog]

A similar situation but without the saber rattling - I got them to install a logging meter, and a few days later they found a breaker in a substation was having issues and my lights stopped flickering.

I tried the diplomatic way first, but after being blown off, I didn't have a lot of options. I save the lawyer card for last.

 

[pcmeiners]

"The insulation on wires for the most part is soy based and the termites love it."

News to me also.

 

[Slowbuilder]

We had a "flickering lights" issue last year. My neighbor called one Sunday afternoon and asked if my lights were flickering - they were. They were going mostly brighter, and we had noticed that they had been for a couple of days. I didn't think much of it, as sometimes LEDs fail that way - I thought it was time to replace a couple. He called out the POCO, they sent out a troubleshooter, and before we knew it, 3-4 trucks were in the neighborhood, opening transformer boxes, etc.

Long story short, there was a buried feeder running from the transformer nearest our house about 450 feet through the easement on our property and across the state highway behind us for future streetlights. In the new home construction going on across the highway, some backhoe jockey cut and shorted the feeder. It proceeded to short and burn it's way back towards the transformer (causing the voltage fluctuations and light flashing), and by the time the troubleshooters had figured this out, it had burned 300+ feet of the 450 feet from the initial cut. The POCO found the furthest extent of the burn, and dug it up (at 9pm on Sunday night) and terminated the feeder to stop the short. Problem solved!

 

[jpcjguy]

So my power company came and looked things over. They opened the "big green box" and checked all the connections. They opened up the meter and checked those connections. Checked the voltage coming in and everything appeared fine. He recommended a recorder and they put one in that will monitor for two weeks or so and they can analyze the data looking for spikes, drops, etc. He did mention that the "green box" is a "25" (whatever that means) and was going to check if that is enough. This is where I am at....

 

[ddawg16]

So my power company came and looked things over. They opened the "big green box" and checked all the connections. They opened up the meter and checked those connections. Checked the voltage coming in and everything appeared fine. He recommended a recorder and they put one in that will monitor for two weeks or so and they can analyze the data looking for spikes, drops, etc. He did mention that the "green box" is a "25" (whatever that means) and was going to check if that is enough. This is where I am at....

He might mean '25 ckt' box

If you have 25 breakers or spaces....that is it.

 

[jpcjguy]

He might mean '25 ckt' box

If you have 25 breakers or spaces....that is it.

There are 25 breakers in the transformer?(big green box in the yard/woods). How would upgrading that to a "35" (what he said) help me? (being downstream from that)
We did talk about the large addition (with HVAC) the neighbors put in a few years ago - they daughter and 3 kids moved back into the house. Also that I have more stuff (3 fridges, full size freezer, etc.) than the previous owner - not including my 48x30 detached garage (no HVAC yet!) but small water heater, other always on electronics, and the obvious compressor, welder etc.

 

[ddawg16]

Oh...that big green box

Your existing 'big green box' is a 25 KVA transformer. He is talking about upgrading it to 35 KVA

I'm assuming you have underground electrical?

 

[jpcjguy]

Oh...that big green box

Your existing 'big green box' is a 25 KVA transformer. He is talking about upgrading it to 35 KVA

I'm assuming you have underground electrical?

correct

 

[engineer2]

Reminds me of my parents' home when the neutral come off at the pole. Elderly dad called ComEd and gave them a long-winded engineering explanation of how the disconnected neutral was causing all sorts of power fluctuations in the house. They ignored him and never came out. Too much detail I suppose. I stopped by the next day to see what was up, and told him to call them and just say "there is a wire hanging off the power pole". They had it fixed in 2 hours.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Reminds me of my parents' home when the neutral come off at the pole. Elderly dad called ComEd and gave them a long-winded engineering explanation of how the disconnected neutral was causing all sorts of power fluctuations in the house. They ignored him and never came out. Too much detail I suppose. I stopped by the next day to see what was up, and told him to call them and just say "there is a wire hanging off the power pole". They had it fixed in 2 hours.

hes lucky his house didnt burn down

 

[engineer2]

hes lucky his house didnt burn down

All EMT and no Edison circuits. He did shut everything off that he could except for the fridge and a few lights. It was fall, so no heat or AC was running. Swampy area, so mother Earth was likely a good conductor.

 

[TractorJeff]

This is why I am very careful(stupid sounding) around them. If you know more than they do about their equipment and how it works, they blow you off as an "Internet Wannabee"! If the guy you are talking to is a Field Engineer, then I may admit what I know but if it is a Lower level Tech/Worker then I play dumb.
They installed all new Pad Mount Transformers in our neighborhood, a few weeks later ours starting leaking. I called and told them, they came out and put down sawdust saying it was overfilled. 2 weeks later I called and told them it was leaking again, maybe they should look inside for a failed weld on a seam. He blew me off with the same overfilled excuse. After the 3rd time, they got called to come out, a Field Engineer opened it up, saw the leaking seam and put in a work order to replace it. I told him that I know they get a lot of **** pot calls but the previous guy had the necessary safety gear to open the door and look inside. Maybe they should listen to the Customer complaints and observations more closely?

 

[rlitman]

This is why I am very careful(stupid sounding) around them. If you know more than they do about their equipment and how it works, they blow you off as an "Internet Wannabee"! If the guy you are talking to is a Field Engineer, then I may admit what I know but if it is a Lower level Tech/Worker then I play dumb...

That's the unfortunate truth for most customers. When your electric bill looks like my company's you do get more of a "concierge" level of service. At least, after some telephone tag.

 

[nadogail]

I have found the Power Company to be pretty helpful, except on one occasion, 40 years ago, when I felt they were blowing me off in my brand new house I called the city building department and they sent an Inspector who tightened the Neutral connections in the Service Panel.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Is there a way I can monitor to determine if it is in the house wiring itself (1993 build), or coming from the utility? Should I contact them?
Any guidance or thoughts?

Not realistically and it will take a lot of bitching to get them to install a monitor for a week or two.

"The squeaky wheel gets the grease !" Put it in writing. Snail mail it. After about the 3rd or 4th time, tell them you are going to complain to the Public Service Commission (or what ever government office that allows the PoCo to operate a monopoly).

It took my buddy almost 1 year, but he got what he wanted.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Reminds me of my parents' home when the neutral come off at the pole.

Bad connection on the line along my back yard. They came quick when I said it was shooting sparks.

Of course it stopped by the time the linesman got there ! I told him wich wire. He puts his spikes and climbing belt on and goes up the pole. Wearing gloves and using a pair of Channelocks (I could tell by the color of the insulation), he grabs the wire and gives it a good shake. FIREWORKS ! "I have to wait for another truck to get here. They don't want one man crews working on hot lines.". Yes, they fixed it hot. I don't think we ever had one blink.