Dirty Power?

[beetroot72]

Can anybody out there explain to me or validate the term "Dirty Power?"

I specifically have had problems with a Honeywell Smartvalve. Here is a quote from the manufacturing engineers....

"We have found in the Illinois area that we are having a power problem with your power supply company. What happens is there is an interruption of power "dirty power" and it's enough to close a set of contacts to turn the power exhauster on/off."

I have a brand new house with this furnace on its own 20a circuit. I've also jumped it to other circuits to test it but the problem is still there. The power exhauster clicks on and off which resets the heat cycle sequence.

Any ideas on how to test their theory?
Nothing else in my house seems to be effected. I've thrown the word around and most everybody calls B.S.

 

[PAToyota]

"Dirty power" is a phrase used to describe fluctuations in voltage and amperage, brownouts, spikes, and such. The sorts of things that you put a UPS on a computer to protect it from. Something like a lightbulb isn't going to be affecting by things until they get somewhat major. But various electronics are much more sensitive. You aren't quite clear on what your particular problem is, but he seems to be saying that there is enough power fluctuation to cause a relay or solenoid to lose power and close/open and it is enough to disrupt the operation of the device.

To test for it, you'd need a voltage meter that would keep a log of the incoming power - so you could see when it dips, spikes, whatever. Depending on the setup and how much power is being drawn, a simple solution could be to put the unit on a UPS.

 

[beetroot72]

To test for it, you'd need a voltage meter that would keep a log of the incoming power - so you could see when it dips, spikes, whatever. Depending on the setup and how much power is being drawn, a simple solution could be to put the unit on a UPS.

I had a VM on the line when it was "acting up" and saw no Voltage fluctuations. The ground seems clean also but I'm not sure what I'm looking for.

Also Isn't a UPS an uninterruptible power supply? Does that act as a filter and ad consistency to the power flow?

 

[Tscott]

Can anybody out there explain to me or validate the term "Dirty Power?"

I specifically have had problems with a Honeywell Smartvalve. Here is a quote from the manufacturing engineers....

"We have found in the Illinois area that we are having a power problem with your power supply company. What happens is there is an interruption of power "dirty power" and it's enough to close a set of contacts to turn the power exhauster on/off."

I have a brand new house with this furnace on its own 20a circuit. I've also jumped it to other circuits to test it but the problem is still there. The power exhauster clicks on and off which resets the heat cycle sequence.

Any ideas on how to test their theory?
Nothing else in my house seems to be effected. I've thrown the word around and most everybody calls B.S.

Dirty power does exist ( I am an engineer for a power company in case you think I am not credible). The power that comes to your house is delivered in AC Form AC= Alternating current. what this means is that the power rotates from positive to negative 60 times a second (60 Hz). If you graph this on paper it is the exact same as a sin wave the highest and lowest points of the wave are 120V positive and 120V negative respectively




Ideally the attached graph is what the power into you home should look like.

The problem is that even though your house may be on its own transformer you are still connected to every other load connected to the high voltage power line. This means that the conditions existing the main high voltage line can affect your homes electricity. There are many things that will cause power problems and a lot of those I have trouble understanding, so I will try and keep it simple and brief.

Electrical equipment like motors are called induction loads. what this means is that they generate work using magnetic Fields. The problem is that as they use these Fields they tend to alter them slightly, and that altered Field creates feedback onto the power lines. Unless you power company installs safeguards, this can lead to problems with sensitive electronic devices. Motors in your own home can also cause this problem. If you have a well pump or big air conditioner and you already have voltage problems then it will dim the lights when it turns on.

If you live in the middle of nowhere like me, you may want to find out how far you are from the closest substation. the farther the high voltage lines run to your home the lower the voltage to you house unless fixed by power company devices. (think of this as a 1000' long 1" water pipe with 1/2" faucets every 6 inches, the end of the pipe is capped and has a single faucet on it. There will be no pressure at this faucet if all the others are open). This also applies if your transformer is too far from your house.


OK so enough of the complicated ****, first thing you need to do is call the power company and tell them you are having problems. They should have the ability to mount a special voltage meter that can keep track of the power entering your home. If they find a problem, they will be able to tell you how either you or they will fix the problem. If they clear you you may want to call an electrician (or better yet a technician for the problem equipment) and have him check for voltage problems at the offending piece of equipment.

There are a tom of way to fix voltage problems, but first you need to track down the cause. Hope this helps

Tom

 

[Tscott]

By the way, a standard voltmeter will not accurately pick up fast voltage fluctuations. volt meters simply average the power they sample. You would need a really nice expensive voltmeter with a built in oscilloscope to see the sin wave fluctuate.

 

[beetroot72]

OK so enough of the complicated ****, first thing you need to do is call the power company and tell them you are having problems. They should have the ability to mount a special voltage meter that can keep track of the power entering your home. If they find a problem, they will be able to tell you how either you or they will fix the problem. If they clear you you may want to call an electrician (or better yet a technician for the problem equipment) and have him check for voltage problems at the offending piece of equipment.

There are a tom of way to fix voltage problems, but first you need to track down the cause. Hope this helps

Tom

I thought about that but figured they wouldn't give a little residential customer much thought. But now I'm going to give it a try. What do you propose I tell them? I imagine a idiot Customer Service Rep not taking me very seriously or not knowing how to address the problem.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Tscott]

I am not sure the type of power company you have (Cooperative, municipal, Investor owned). Irregardless, you are the customer and they serve you and your interest. They are no different that any other retail operation, you pay them for a product, and they need to ensure you get a good product.

I would explain to them what you have explained here and tell them you would like them to test the incoming power to your home to see if it is really the cause of the problem. BE NICE these people get yelled at all day by pissed off people who have had their power shut off, a little please and thank you goes a long way. If all else fails throw around terms like "sensitive electrical equipment" and "Damage to expensive circuitry" and stuff like that. But in all honesty, they should be happy to help you. They may not come out the same day, and the testing may take a day or so depending on how long they feel they need to test based on the info you give them.

Let us know how it goes, I am alway curious to see how other utilities handle these types of situations

 

[beetroot72]

Thanks Tscott...I'll keep you posted. Honeywell as well as Modine Mfg. claims they cannot duplicate the problem . They both say the only thing it could be is dirty power.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Just tell them that you are having power problems and the equipment manufacturer tells you it is caused by dirty power.

THAT BEING SAID...I've heard this "dirty power" before, most recently from HP on why a printer wouldn't conisistantly pick up forms from a certain paper tray. It was complete and total ********.

You may have a power problem. It may even be the problem. But blaming "dirty power" has become a convienant excuse when technical support really has no idea what the issue is. It's a catch-all excuse that can absolve them from fixing the problem. It's difficult for you to prove either way.

I've been working with sensitive electronics for decades and the only power quality issues I have seen have been during the few seconds you are going into a blackout, coming out of a blackout, noticiable brown outs AND while using gasoline powered generators.

Even if everything your equipment manufactuer is telling you is true...you should let them know that none of your home's other equipment (televisions, pcs, appliances, etc.) is having any problems. Why is their equipment not robust enough to handle real world power conditions that do not effect every other load you have?

Hmmm???

Phil

 

[beetroot72]

Even if everything your equipment manufactuer is telling you is true...you should let them know that none of your home's other equipment (televisions, pcs, appliances, etc.) is having any problems. Why is their equipment not robust enough to handle real world power conditions that do not effect every other load you have?

Hmmm???

Phil

I have been in constant contact with a great rep at Modine Manufacturing. And because of my issue (seemingly the worst) and other similar ones, they are implimenting a new Hot Start Ignition System (no smartvalve) for their Hot Dawgs and several other units in their production line . I'm told that I will get one of the first units off the new line...hopefully by August. Modine claims that they narrowed it down to the Honeywell Smartvalve and that Honeywell has not responded well to the issue. Modine is a rather large company and I assume honeywell just lost a big account.

 

[Tscott]

Actually, Honeywell is also huge. They make all sorts of electromechanical stuff. If you own a home I can probably find at least 6 pieces of equipment with honeywell stuff in it. That being said, they have as many equipment problems as anyone else, maybe you just got a bad component. Have they tried changing the valve? Have they sent a tech to check out the unit? It sounds like the coil on the contacts holds them open and in the case of a power failure or if the exhaust ffan stops for any reason, it shuts the furnace off. Most normally closed conactors or solenoids are very resistant to voltage drop, maybe its an issue with another component in the system causing the coil to lose power.

 

[beetroot72]

Actually, Honeywell is also huge. They make all sorts of electromechanical stuff. If you own a home I can probably find at least 6 pieces of equipment with honeywell stuff in it. That being said, they have as many equipment problems as anyone else, maybe you just got a bad component. Have they tried changing the valve? Have they sent a tech to check out the unit? It sounds like the coil on the contacts holds them open and in the case of a power failure or if the exhaust ffan stops for any reason, it shuts the furnace off. Most normally closed conactors or solenoids are very resistant to voltage drop, maybe its an issue with another component in the system causing the coil to lose power.

I've replaced the valve and the board...Then they sent me a whole new unit.
I'm not the only one with this problem. The power exhauster used to click on and off without even a call for heat. That is their most common problem. They have an updated wire harness that cuts power to the smartvalve unless it's "on Call". I installed the harness but once it's "On call" it's free to click on and off as it pleases. It'll work fine for weeks, but then it goes through a "bad stage", usually when I needed it the most. I have neighbors with Dayton heaters which has a different ignition system and they all work fine. I would have just returned the Modine and bought the Dayton but I have 3" vent pipe and the Dayton uses 4". I'm not replacing over $300.00 in vent pipe unless there is no other option. I'll wait until the new unit comes then we'll see. But in the meantime I will contact ComEd.


Thanks again!

 

[mulepackin]

[ It'll work fine for weeks, but then it goes through a "bad stage", usually when I needed it the most.
QUOTE]

The fact that it acts up when you need it most lends some credance to the "dirty power" theory, in that demand is likely to be greater on your section of the line thereby further reducing the available voltage. None the less, the utility should address the problem for you. If you aren't getting satisfaction from them check with your state public service commission or whatever regulatory body oversees the electrical utilities.

 

[cc_rider]

I don't really have anything to add, just to say this thread is very interesting. And kudos to the nice folks here who know what they're talking about.

Sounds like the situation was a 'known problem' and is being addressed pretty quickly. Honeywell IS a huge company, but they have a reputation for quality, in products and service. Ten years ago we (the company I work for) designed a residential thermostat for Honeywell, and they were good to work with. I still have a unit around somewhere. But it's not usable here, since it was for the Chinese market: they don't use a low-voltage control signal, just straight 220. I used to have it mounted on a wall in my office; people would try to adjust it all the time...

Hope things are working out...

c.

 

[MustangRick]

Not sure how much of a load you are talking about, but you could get a small $30-50 UPS from Best Buy. It may carry a 10amp load for just under a minute. They generally straighten out the power pretty good. If you want to spend $100 then get a smart model ups from APC, they can deal with just about anything.

 

[beetroot72]

The fact that it acts up when you need it most lends some credance to the "dirty power" theory, in that demand is likely to be greater on your section of the line thereby further reducing the available voltage. Nonetheless, the utility should address the problem for you. If you aren't getting satisfaction from them check with your state public service commission or whatever regulatory body oversees the electrical utilities

I thought the same as well. When it was cold, the unit seemed to work fine during the week...my garage was warm and the unit was never in "lockout" mode (it will lock if it fails to ignite 10x) But come Saturday morning when I'd crank up the heat to work in the garage it couldn't even make it to ignition. There is a 15 second pre-purge but during that pre-purge you'll hear "click, click" and the exhaust motor turns off/on. Well the unit doesn't ignite, but after 1 minute the air circulation fan kicks on. Then after a while something tells it to kick off. But during that time I'll hear the exhaust fan cycling like crazy. Sometimes it will stay on enough to initiate the igniter and light the burners but eventually it will click again and immediatly the burners shut off and it all starts over again.

Even though they are sending me a new unit in August, I'm going to call Comed tomorrow.

 

[beetroot72]

Hooray!! For Hot Dawg & Modine Mfg.

Boo..Hiss...Piss on ComEd

I installed my new (replacement) HD45 over the weekend. It runs without a problem! It lost the Honeywell Smartvalve and uses a direct spark ignition instead of the Hot surface.

The original HD45 with the Smartvalve was acting up right before I swapped it out. So my "Dirty Power" still exists.

Modine Really stepped up to the plate on solving my problem!

ComEd has done nothing but blow me off! I have Emailed and Called them and have been nothing but polite and pleasant. They have not responded to my emails and when I called they assured me my power was "within spec" without even looking into it.

 

[Will67]

Beetroot72: maybe you can hire Fairlaneman to act on your behalf with ComEd.

That guy scares the **** out of me, and i am glad he is not my neighbor.