Dissuade me from getting a radial arm saw

[ching0n]

I've gotten the itch to get a vintage radial arm saw lately (I've already got two sliding miters) thinking I could do lap joints and dado work. I'm rationalizing by telling myself the table space could be useful if I just pivot/stow the arm towards the wall (dewalt shown below).

I've also come across a delta/milwaukee unit that has a double arm design which likely doesn't stow but due to the design has full miter on either the left or right, can do circle work, and if by some miracle I came across a drill head, can turn into a radial drill press (though I do wonder if it's recommended to drill away from the pivot fulcrum at all (picture below).

Thirdly, a c-fman unit that I would normally shy away from except it has additional safety features & built in encoders that could come in super handy (think DRO in mill) for pilot drilling w/a chuck attachment.

For those experienced, how inaccurate would the dewalt and craftsman become if I stowed the arm after each use?

 

[PugetDude]

I owned three of them over the years, nothing better for a quick crosscut or cutting dados, IMO.

Always had one set up on a framing project, we had one living outside under a tarp for three years when we built the lake cabins, it moved from neighbor to neighbor.

Gave that one away when I moved. Replaced with a sliding compound miter saw.

Technology changes, but I still would like to have an old RAS set up in a barn somewhere...like a real old time lumberyard.

 

[Mintgrun]

That drill press attachment is cool. I've got two old Delta turret-style saws and would look for one of those, as opposed to the style that pivots at the back. I know what you mean about the advantage of swinging the whole thing out of the way though. It should be easy enough to square it to the fence when you swing it around to use it.

 

[ching0n]

That drill press attachment is cool. I've got two old Delta turret-style saws and would look for one of those, as opposed to the style that pivots at the back. I know what you mean about the advantage of swinging the whole thing out of the way though. It should be easy enough to square it to the fence when you swing it around to use it.

Fair to assume the deltas don't have a 2nd pivot to stow the arm then? Just the turret pivot?

 

[Mintgrun]

Right. The back is bolted on, with enough play for adjustment to square, but not a full pivot to the side. At least I think that's how it works. I'd appreciate being able to swing them out of the way, but to me, the advantages of the turret outweigh that convenience.

 

[Bad Habit]

I owned three of them over the years, nothing better for a quick crosscut or cutting dados, IMO.

Always had one set up on a framing project, we had one living outside under a tarp for three years when we built the lake cabins, it moved from neighbor to neighbor.

Gave that one away when I moved. Replaced with a sliding compound miter saw.

Technology changes, but I still would like to have an old RAS set up in a barn somewhere...

Still have my dad's Dewalt that he bought new in 1955. Great for cross cuts, motor is getting pretty weak though. Grew up with it, and try and have a healthy respect for it, must be working, still have all my fingers. Miter saws are great, but just aren't as handy as a radial saw sometimes.

Got a sad decision coming up on it. Down sizing and no room for it in the future. Sad to see it go...

 

[TxSteve]

Where are you located? I have an old Craftsman that I need to get rid of...

I'm in North Central Texas

 

[wrenchguy]

use common sense european method to cross cut and understand grain stress in thicker/wider materials. you'll be fine.
i have a big 1 that travels 24", a real lumberyard saw.

 

[Nick Rivers]

While I love the Delta RAS and grew up watching Norm use one on New Yankee Workshop, I'd go for a vintage DeWalt RAS - either the MBF model or if space is that much of an issue, the smaller MBC. They are designed to swing to the side for storage if in a workbench set up as shown in your picture (That is a MBF RAS). Those older cast iron arms have have solid lugs for locking the arm at 45 and 90 degrees using a heavy steel detent mechanism. Even though the MBF is designed to run a 9" blade, you will get better performance running an 8 inch or smaller blade.
If you can find a DeWalt model 790, that is the best machine to run dados with. It has the most powerful motor of the whole 5/8" arbor lineup and it can run a 12 inch blade.

There is a jig that you can use to get a full right miter on a non-Delta RAS . Check the RAS forum for information on that. It's posted by a relative of Wally Kunkle (Mr. Sawdust), AKA the grandfather of the RAS and author of "How to Master the Radial Saw"

I would stay away from Craftsman, unless it was late 50s or 1960s. You want a heavy casting machine with repeatability when locking in the arm.

Brian Weekly has several videos that I recommend and he is a forum member:

 

[crguy]

There are lots of good reasons you see free radial arm saws listed. Almost nobody wants one - think about it.

 

[WildBill]

I got one that looks like that bottom pic you could have if your near Spokane WA.

 

[SBAG]

There are lots of good reasons you see free radial arm saws listed. Almost nobody wants one - think about it.

Think about what? Most of the ones you see free are junky assed craftsmans made in the late 70s and early 80s.

 

[Roberts210]

I will never be without one. I bought my first Craftsman RAS in 1976, sold it when I moved, and bought the 2nd in 1987. And each, after a few weeks of daily use, became unreliable in holding the adjustments.
In the early 1990's I got my first Comet Cub RAS, and I found out they are the Rolls Royce of RAS.
The adjustment mechanisms are all either cast iron or machined steel, and will not creep.
They are mostly found on the West Coast, but a lot of them made it to the Midwest too. I owned 6 at one time, but these days I am down to 2 and a spare motor. The Comet Cubs turn an 8.5 inch blade, but the blade is offset so it cuts as deeply as a 10" saw. Blade speed idles at 6,700 rpm and under full load is 4,500 rpm.

Power. Speed. Accuracy.

 

[Iron Horse]

I moved 2 years ago and have been resetting up the wood shop. When its done if i have room you bet your *** I'm going to try and fit a RAS. I spent quite a few years with one in a cabinet shop. I still miss it.

 

[WildBill]

Think about what? Most of the ones you see free are junky assed craftsmans made in the late 70s and early 80s.

I like them because you can get $50-100 for them through the recall programs that are still open. Just have to send in a pic of the serial number and/or of a "disabled" saw. Then the scrap guy gives me decent cash for them because they are super heavy and have a motor with those sweet copper windings he likes. I've done it at least 10 times with free ones. Never even take them out of my truck after I grab them. Just stop long enough to get recall stuff and straight to scrapper.

http://radialarmsawrecall.com

CPSC, Emerson Tool Co. Announce Recall of Craftsman® Radial Arm Saws Sold by Sears, Roebuck and Co.

Emerson will provide $100 for the return of the saw carriage of recalled radial arm saws. Consumers must contact Emerson to arrange for a return of their saw carriage at no charge to the consumer. Consumers should have the model and serial numbers of their saw available when they call the...

www.cpsc.gov

 

[Cruzan80]

DeWalt or Rockwell. Don't waste your time with the CM. Depending on where you are, I have a 12" Rockwell turret I would let go for fairly cheap. Completely rebuilt it, one finger to move the carriage, but then a 18" fell into my lap...

The detents are adjustable, but lock in solid to where it isn't a worry to move out/back.

Edit: Located near Denver, CO

 

[isb cornbinder]

I have an okay Craftsman Radial Arm Saw in storage. I got it at a garage sale 20 years ago and I have never used it.
The first person to claim it can have it, FREE.

 

[isb cornbinder]

removed

 

[ching0n]

While I love the Delta RAS and grew up watching Norm use one on New Yankee Workshop, I'd go for a vintage DeWalt RAS - either the MBF model or if space is that much of an issue, the smaller MBC. They are designed to swing to the side for storage if in a workbench set up as shown in your picture (That is a MBF RAS). Those older cast iron arms have have solid lugs for locking the arm at 45 and 90 degrees using a heavy steel detent mechanism. Even though the MBF is designed to run a 9" blade, you will get better performance running an 8 inch or smaller blade.
If you can find a DeWalt model 790, that is the best machine to run dados with. It has the most powerful motor of the whole 5/8" arbor lineup and it can run a 12 inch blade.

There is a jig that you can use to get a full right miter on a non-Delta RAS . Check the RAS forum for information on that. It's posted by a relative of Wally Kunkle (Mr. Sawdust), AKA the grandfather of the RAS and author of "How to Master the Radial Saw"

I would stay away from Craftsman, unless it was late 50s or 1960s. You want a heavy casting machine with repeatability when locking in the arm.

Brian Weekly has several videos that I recommend and he is a forum member:

right now I've got sights on a few deltas (multiplex m20-a (sweet looking thing w/a solid steel table), a 3 phase 33-890, a few 900's) and on Dewalt, an mbf224, a 3ph GP, a 925, and a few dewalt B&D. I think most will take a chuck accessory on the back of the motor which is rather limited @ 3500 rpm but makes me wonder how well it'd work w/a VFD on the 3 phase ones.

What were the Cfman made of? Arm looks diecast aluminum.

 

[ching0n]

I will never be without one. I bought my first Craftsman RAS in 1976, sold it when I moved, and bought the 2nd in 1987. And each, after a few weeks of daily use, became unreliable in holding the adjustments.
In the early 1990's I got my first Comet Cub RAS, and I found out they are the Rolls Royce of RAS.
The adjustment mechanisms are all either cast iron or machined steel, and will not creep.
They are mostly found on the West Coast, but a lot of them made it to the Midwest too. I owned 6 at one time, but these days I am down to 2 and a spare motor. The Comet Cubs turn an 8.5 inch blade, but the blade is offset so it cuts as deeply as a 10" saw. Blade speed idles at 6,700 rpm and under full load is 4,500 rpm.

Power. Speed. Accuracy.

Those tubes don't sag w/the heavy saw? Reminds me of a shopsmith for some reason.

 

[ching0n]

Where are you located? I have an old Craftsman that I need to get rid of...

I'm in North Central Texas

I got one that looks like that bottom pic you could have if your near Spokane WA.

DeWalt or Rockwell. Don't waste your time with the CM. Depending on where you are, I have a 12" Rockwell turret I would let go for fairly cheap. Completely rebuilt it, one finger to move the carriage, but then a 18" fell into my lap...

The detents are adjustable, but lock in solid to where it isn't a worry to move out/back.

Edit: Located near Denver, CO

I have an okay Craftsman Radial Arm Saw in storage. I got it at a garage sale 20 years ago and I have never used it.
The first person to claim it can have it, FREE.

I'm nowhere near y'all, thanks for the offers, if I may ask for those w/cfman, does the arm stow fully flat against the wall like the delta pictured?

I like them because you can get $50-100 for them through the recall programs that are still open. Just have to send in a pic of the serial number and/or of a "disabled" saw. Then the scrap guy gives me decent cash for them because they are super heavy and have a motor with those sweet copper windings he likes. I've done it at least 10 times with free ones. Never even take them out of my truck after I grab them. Just stop long enough to get recall stuff and straight to scrapper.

http://radialarmsawrecall.com

CPSC, Emerson Tool Co. Announce Recall of Craftsman® Radial Arm Saws Sold by Sears, Roebuck and Co.

Emerson will provide $100 for the return of the saw carriage of recalled radial arm saws. Consumers must contact Emerson to arrange for a return of their saw carriage at no charge to the consumer. Consumers should have the model and serial numbers of their saw available when they call the...

www.cpsc.gov

I hear you can also opt to get the 'upgrade' package which means new table, guard, and a few other things. I'll be honest, the electronic brake, and the encoders makes them tempting. I'm half thinking you could make a sweet manual plasma table w/one.

 

[Cruzan80]

Do you think you will be doing wide tall stuff on the table? If not, the upper arm isnt really in the way for working on too much stuff (for any/all of them).

The worry with the CM is that the detent stops may not be nearly as solid as DeWalt/Rockwell, so you may have to re-index 90deg before using.

 

[Roberts210]

Chingon: Those tubes don't sag w/the heavy saw? Reminds me of a shopsmith for some reason.

Comet Cubs are a world apart from Shopsmith engineering.
The "tubes" are machined and chrome plated 1-3/8ths high carbon, solid steel. You could stand on the end and they wouldn't deflect.

 

[Roberts210]

The steel rods ride on ball bearings in the head. One set of bearings is adjustable, but I've never had to adjust any.

 

[ching0n]

Do you think you will be doing wide tall stuff on the table? If not, the upper arm isnt really in the way for working on too much stuff (for any/all of them).

The worry with the CM is that the detent stops may not be nearly as solid as DeWalt/Rockwell, so you may have to re-index 90deg before using.

It's one of those things that you'd prefer not to run into. Looks like B&D bought Dewalt at some point and these rebadges don't command such a high price for identical Dewalt units.

There are lots of good reasons you see free radial arm saws listed. Almost nobody wants one - think about it.

You realize the number of units Dewalt & Delta moved or the amount of stuff that got built w/these before the sliding miter saw came around?

 

[Roberts210]

While not as portable as the sliding miter saw, I've taken mine onto jobsites.



In 1998 I needed to cut over 500 chords for some floor trusses. I needed two different angles on each end.
Once the adjustments were made on the Comet Cub, they never once slipped.

 

[ching0n]

While not as portable as the sliding miter saw, I've taken mine onto jobsites.



In 1998 I needed to cut over 500 chords for some floor trusses. I needed two different angles on each end.
Once the adjustments were made on the Comet Cub, they never once slipped.

Can the comet lie flat against the wall @ 0 degrees? I like that it's fairly compact. Does the head swivel to do bevels? It doesn't look like it but your chord work seems to show otherwise (unless you stood them on the narrow side and used the miter).

 

[Cruzan80]

Be aware, when using the Comet, you need room behind the mount for the saw poles. In Robert's first pic, you can see the pole ride thru the upright, and the saw stays at the end of the poles. If the upright is against the wall, the blade can't go backwards.

 

[Roberts210]

The Cub needs about 20 inches behind the saw for clearance. Its something you just learn to set up your shop to accomodate. I don't put a table saw or jointer or thickness planer against the wall--the plusses of the Comet Cub far outweigh any location problems.

 

[ching0n]

Be aware, when using the Comet, you need room behind the mount for the saw poles. In Robert's first pic, you can see the pole ride thru the upright, and the saw stays at the end of the poles. If the upright is against the wall, the blade can't go backwards.

that's an obvious one I missed. I liked these layouts, I kind of want a forward rail sliding miter now:

 

[Cruzan80]

that's an obvious one I missed. I liked these layouts, I kind of want a forward rail sliding miter now:

All good. As Robert said, I would not consider it a minus myself, but figured if you were asking if it could swing 90 to get out of the way, you may have also been thinking of putting it up against a wall. Just didn't want you to get one, only then to realize...

 

[marinusdees]

I've gotten the itch to get a vintage radial arm saw lately (I've already got two sliding miters) thinking I could do lap joints and dado work. I'm rationalizing by telling myself the table space could be useful if I just pivot/stow the arm towards the wall (dewalt shown below).

I've also come across a delta/milwaukee unit that has a double arm design which likely doesn't stow but due to the design has full miter on either the left or right, can do circle work, and if by some miracle I came across a drill head, can turn into a radial drill press (though I do wonder if it's recommended to drill away from the pivot fulcrum at all (picture below).

Thirdly, a c-fman unit that I would normally shy away from except it has additional safety features & built in encoders that could come in super handy (think DRO in mill) for pilot drilling w/a chuck attachment.

For those experienced, how inaccurate would the dewalt and craftsman become if I stowed the arm after each use?

Can you earn a living minus some (how many?) fingers?? I practiced orthodontics for 30 years. My wife bought me one for father's day along the way. I made her take it back. Yes, I am a do-it-yourselfer. No, I don't thoink I'm hypercautious.

 

[Roberts210]

Marinusdees, the most effective safety device ever invented was placed between your 2 ears. It is called awareness. I grew up around dangerous spinning sharp machinery that could remove a finger, an arm or even a leg if you got distracted while you worked, or if you did something just plain stupid. Stay vigilant if you work around dangerous machinery. I always kept my wits about me, and have never been badly cut. The most dangerous time for a machinery operator is right after a big lunch.

 

[Roberts210]

The Comet Cubs came with wheels on either the right or left side of the base, and large cast aluminum handles on the other side so you can tip one end up, which puts the wheels in contact with the floor. Thus you can wheel one around if you have a nice level floor. Below, this Cub has an early Craftsman roller base but the setup doesn't work worth a ****.

 

[ching0n]

Marinusdees, the most effective safety device ever invented was placed between your 2 ears. It is called awareness. I grew up around dangerous spinning sharp machinery that could remove a finger, an arm or even a leg if you got distracted while you worked, or if you did something just plain stupid. Stay vigilant if you work around dangerous machinery. I always kept my wits about me, and have never been badly cut. The most dangerous time for a machinery operator is right after a big lunch.

He brings up a good point and I won't discount the likelihood of the radial being statistically 'less safe'. Not all of us are hyper vigilant and some of us a little clumsier. I think there's ways to mitigate the safety issues and like all things in life, judge if the lemon's worth the squeeze. I'm sure there's plenty of us w/old cars and/or motorbikes that are less safe than newer options out there.

As far as I can tell, there's a few things that made the radial 'less safe'.
1. The lack of motor brake to slow down that blade in a reasonable time...
Time's money, if a radial has to be constantly on for it to make multiple cross cuts, it makes sense for the spinning saw to be away from the operator in the safest position, making it a pusher wouldn't allow that. I get the argument that it can 'lift the work' as a pusher but that's true of a miter/slider saw as well and it's resolved by clamping the work. Additionally, the operator is exposed to a spinning blade 2x as much for each cut (on the pull stroke & the return) compared to a miter slider.

2. On point 1, making it a puller means the saw will climb the work and shoot the saw your way....this was likely exacerbated by cost cutting construction over the years making that arm less stiff and likelier to flex compared to old cast iron arm saws. I think manufacturers understood that which is why they made the feed crank based for metal cutting models.

3. Swiss army knife advertising. It sure can do all those things advertised but dedicated machines can mitigate accidents by having built in safeties for those tasks.

As far as I can tell, convenience likely killed the saw as cost cutting meant setup time for accuracy lost to the miter.

 

[Roberts210]

I always felt my Unisaw was more dangerous than my Comet Cub, but to each his own. I imagine a half sphere about the size of half a basketball sitting on top of the Unisaw blade slot. When the saw is running I NEVER get my fingers or hands inside that imaginary half sphere, so no part of my body ever gets closer to the spinning blade than 8-9 inches. I have always used push sticks. But with my Cub, I've often gotten my fingers or hands closer than that, but always to the left side of the spinning blade--never in front or in back of it. And I never rip on it.

 

[cgrutt]

My first saw was a Craftsman RAS I used that for many projects over the years. Table saw came later and became my preferred saw. Bought a sliding compound miter saw eventually and the RAS saw infrequent use I gave it to my BIL to free up space. Almost lost a finger to it it was more of a freak accident than not being careful but the larger exposed blade definitely makes it more dangerous than other options particularly if you remove the safety devices as many choose to do. I will say I think it excels at cross cutting fully through a board. Dados across the width of a board may be easier to cut than on a table saw but I think a table saw is much easier to set up for repeated accuracy. Think about all the adjustments needed on three different planes to get a RAS tuned in perfectly accurate. Not saying it's not possible but certainly more to do and to go wrong. I like the fact that you can turn RAS arbor pointing down and using other attachments such as a drum sander. I'd never use those old three blade shaper attachments that were sold by Sears though. Way too much could go wrong with those and make for a very bad day. My buddy bought a saw mill and has been milling his own lumber a RAS would be great there.

 

[wrenchguy]

He brings up a good point and I won't discount the likelihood of the radial being statistically 'less safe'. Not all of us are hyper vigilant and some of us a little clumsier. I think there's ways to mitigate the safety issues and like all things in life, judge if the lemon's worth the squeeze. I'm sure there's plenty of us w/old cars and/or motorbikes that are less safe than newer options out there.

As far as I can tell, there's a few things that made the radial 'less safe'.
1. The lack of motor brake to slow down that blade in a reasonable time...
Time's money, if a radial has to be constantly on for it to make multiple cross cuts, it makes sense for the spinning saw to be away from the operator in the safest position, making it a pusher wouldn't allow that. I get the argument that it can 'lift the work' as a pusher but that's true of a miter/slider saw as well and it's resolved by clamping the work. Additionally, the operator is exposed to a spinning blade 2x as much for each cut (on the pull stroke & the return) compared to a miter slider.

2. On point 1, making it a puller means the saw will climb the work and shoot the saw your way....this was likely exacerbated by cost cutting construction over the years making that arm less stiff and likelier to flex compared to old cast iron arm saws. I think manufacturers understood that which is why they made the feed crank based for metal cutting models.

3. Swiss army knife advertising. It sure can do all those things advertised but dedicated machines can mitigate accidents by having built in safeties for those tasks.

As far as I can tell, convenience likely killed the saw as cost cutting meant setup time for accuracy lost to the miter.

not that complicated, really stupid people can sue anyone who they think will pay.
especially if they get class action status.

 

[PugetDude]

not that complicated, really stupid people can sue anyone who they think will pay.
especially if they get class action status.

Litigation Lotto, the game the whole family can play!

 

[Nick Rivers]

Most RAS accidents are from:

1. Improper hand placement
2. Improper initial adjustments (setting up the saw)
3. Removing safety guards
4. Improper ripping setup

I could replace the term 'RAS' with 'Table Saw' and they would still apply.

The pull cut on a RAS is a climbing cut. There is a setting on the carriage bearings for 4-6 pounds resistance to pull the carriage head to the operator. This is to counter the saw running towards you. This is shown in the video I posted in reply # 9 at the two minute mark.

• The blade guard is rotated for ripping to keep the board from lifting up from the table. The ripping pawls must be set correctly to prevent kickback when ripping.
• One advantage of the RAS over a Table Saw is you can see the blade and the cut at all times.
• Another advantage is for crosscutting and miters - the work is stationary on the RAS table during the cut.
• For Dados and Grooves, you are able to mark the work and make the cut visually within the marks. (One mark for Rabbets). On a TS, you are transferring the width of the cut via a measurement or stop block while the Dado is upside down and hidden from view.