Diy hvac tools

[dpv4276]

Good morning.

I am planning to do some hvac work at home and on my vehicles. Can anyone tell me what hvac specific tools I will need.

I plan to evacuate and recharge the ac in my truck, as I understand this should be done every few years. I also plan to replace my old central ac condenser when the time comes (currently it is 24 years old and running fine).

I know i need gauges and a vac pump. I assume i need a recovery machine also. There seem to be machines available for around $1000.

I think I need epa certs in order to purchase the refrigerant, which I plan to study up for and take the test.

I understand most of the costs involved and to the average person this may seem like an unnecessary DIY project. However, I consider any tool/education an investment in myself. It's not about saving a buck by not calling a contractor, it's an opportunity to learn and expand my skill set.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

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[Tonyuk]

Honestly i wouldn't bother, for the cost of buying the kit, the consumables, the cert's to actually purchase and store the refrigerant. You'll be FAR cheaper just getting a shop to do it. Its no small skill set to work on AC systems, they can be fragile especially the older ones.

Also, by 24 years old im assuming it was produced in 94? If so i'm sure R12 was being phased out by then (completed 95 i think) so you may well have other complications involved, depending on if they used R12 or R134a

 

[eddieK]

Good morning.

I am planning to do some hvac work at home and on my vehicles. Can anyone tell me what hvac specific tools I will need.

I plan to evacuate and recharge the ac in my truck, as I understand this should be done every few years. I also plan to replace my old central ac condenser when the time comes (currently it is 24 years old and running fine).

I know i need gauges and a vac pump. I assume i need a recovery machine also. There seem to be machines available for around $1000.

I think I need epa certs in order to purchase the refrigerant, which I plan to study up for and take the test.

I understand most of the costs involved and to the average person this may seem like an unnecessary DIY project. However, I consider any tool/education an investment in myself. It's not about saving a buck by not calling a contractor, it's an opportunity to learn and expand my skill set.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

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Not sure where you heard you should evacuate and recharge. That is dead wrong. HVAC systems are sealed systems. Leaks are not acceptable and must be addressed.

 

[eddieK]

Honestly i wouldn't bother, for the cost of buying the kit, the consumables, the cert's to actually purchase and store the refrigerant. You'll be FAR cheaper just getting a shop to do it. Its no small skill set to work on AC systems, they can be fragile especially the older ones.

Also, by 24 years old im assuming it was produced in 94? If so i'm sure R12 was being phased out by then (completed 95 i think) so you may well have other complications involved, depending on if they used R12 or R13

R13 is not a common refrigerant, low temp refrigerant usually used for flash freezing.

Back in the day (late 70's early 80's)I recall people using R13 (or a product called that) as a pre flush. This was well before refrigerants were considered hazardous to the environment.

Most low temp refrigerant systems that used R12 turned to R134a

 

[Tonyuk]

R13 is not a common refrigerant, low temp refrigerant usually used for flash freezing.

Back in the day (late 70's early 80's)I recall people using R13 (or a product called that) as a pre flush. This was well before refrigerants were considered hazardous to the environment.

Most low temp refrigerant systems that used R12 turned to R134a

Apologies for the typo, the 4a part has been missed out.

 

[dclassical]

I would add a scale so you can recharge by weight.

A leak detector can be useful (I use an electronic one for when you cannot spot a leak using a UV light).

A/C is not that complicated, spend time reading and understanding how it works, then you will be able to interpret what the gauges tell you (instead of trying to memorize or refer to a book every time).

Also you will have the tools for other vehicles, so in my book it is a good investment.

 

[dpv4276]

Thanks for the advice so far

I am aware that the refrigerant in my central ac is probably obsolete, and will likely replace the linesets and evaporator at the same time.

Keep the opinions coming

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[eddieK]

apologies for the typo, the 4a part has been missed out.

ahhh

 

[eddieK]

Thanks for the advice so far

I am aware that the refrigerant in my central ac is probably obsolete, and will likely replace the linesets and evaporator at the same time.

Keep the opinions coming

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Obsolete?

R22 will last as long as the system is sealed, it doesn't "go bad" unless you find non condensables (air) in the system. If you change refrigerants you must change the complete system (no options here, please tell me you're not thinking of changing the R22 to an R22 replacement gas)...It makes no sense to remove the better refrigerant R22 to use an inferior R22 replacement.

If you do change go to R410a, you can leave the copper if it is sized correctly, flush them and use a neutralizer.

 

[dpv4276]

No. I meant that I know r22 is not used any more.

I have heard differing opinions and no real consensus on flushing and re-using the copper. So I just figured the safest thing to do when the time comes is replace it all as it is not a long run at all...less than 20'.



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[Siteman25]

I'm not an HVAC guy, but the new R410a refrigerant runs at almost double the pressure, most likely the lineset will have to be replaced. And definitely all the other components as they would not be sized for the higher pressures of R410a.

 

[Jeeper]

I am kind of in the same boat. I like working on my vehicles and hate not being able to do AC work. So I started investing in a few tools but an AC Recycle machine is the game changer. That is what you need to have to really do AC systems properly (and legally). I suppose you can get by without one but it won't be as easy and legal. Legal being you can vent old systems to atmosphere and get away without having a way to capture. But the recycle machine is all contained and makes it easier because you can reuse refrigerant, it has a scale and vac pump all included.

Here are the items that I have for AC. I am not including the many tools such as sockets, ratchets and wrenches. We will limit this to AC specific tools.

- AC Recycler (Robinair 34288, bought it used for $1200)
- Dye injector (FJC 2730)
- AC dye
- yellow glasses to see dye
- Blacklight (Mastercool 53517)
- AC gauge set (Mastercool set. I bought this before the recycle machine. Don't really need this as there are built in gauges on the machine.)
- Couple of bottles of PAG oil


I agree with what some of the others say. AC isn't some black voodoo magic. It's pretty straight forward. I am sure I may run into an issue where it will be some random problem that stumps me. But most of what I have fixed for my family and friends rides have been holes in condensers and evaporators.

You mention central air. If you are talking about house air, it's a different set of tools. Although many of the principals are the same, they cannot recycle refrigerant (unless it's in the same house me thinks).

 

[Air21]

I would not suggest you do THIS

 

[MattT]

Honestly i wouldn't bother, for the cost of buying the kit, the consumables, the cert's to actually purchase and store the refrigerant. You'll be FAR cheaper just getting a shop to do it. Its no small skill set to work on AC systems, they can be fragile especially the older ones.

Here in the land of cheap tools and insanely high labor rates it doesn't take much to recover the cost of most HVAC tools. Only real exception is recovery equipment which is best hired out unless you're going to use it fairly often.

 

[texasprd]

You'll need gauges appropriate to the type of unit & refrigerant you're working with (R22 gauges wont fit on R134 automotive fittings, etc). Get some gauges by a decent manufacturer - I would trust lower-level Robinaire/YellowJacket/other-name-brands much more than HF gauges.

As mentioned, a good scale will be needed. I have an OTC scale that wasn't too expensive, and probably much better than the cheapo scales on Amazon.

Many people don't use them for automotive work (claiming a time-based vacuum pump-down is sufficient), but I would invest in a micron gauge so you can see how much moisture is actually left in the system and when you're getting down to a good level of "dryness".

I did not need an EPA cert when I bought R134a refrigerant in Jan 2017. Bought a 30# drum, so it should last a nice, long time as long as it doesn't leak.

Is cross-contamination of gauges/hoses due to differing types of refrigerant/lubricant a concern in the OP's situation?

 

[speed bump]

You will need recovery tanks for each type of refrigerant you use and for home ac I would just pay someone rather than sit on a couple pounds of R22.

A tank of nitrogen for pressure testing

An acetylene torch.

Depending on the refrigerants you use will end up with a couple sets of gauges and some spare lines along with a pile of adapters.

Various bending and flaring tools depending on how you are setting up your HVAC system .

The refrigeration side of home HVAC is pretty darn simple as most systems come precharged. Braze up the lines, pressure test with nitrogen for whatever you preferred amount of time is, pull a vacuum for 12-24 hours, and then open the line sets from the condenser. Make sure everything is correct pressure wise and braze the system shut.

Compared to mechanic work the cost of tools to do basic refrigeration is fairly low but it is still a couple grand worth of tools that you might use once a year and they do degrade over time.

 

[Yarpo]

Not sure where you heard you should evacuate and recharge. That is dead wrong. HVAC systems are sealed systems. Leaks are not acceptable and must be addressed.

Why are you not suppose to do this? We evacuate and recharge all of the trucks we work on with our machine. Evacuate and evaluate, then fill with the recommended refrigerant amount stated for the system. Our machine is something like this

http://www.toolpan.com/Robinair-347...MIuLPdhO3W2wIVGnZeCh1rggOFEAkYEyABEgI1oPD_BwE

 

[rkevins]

you will need 2 certifications 608 for HVACR 609 for automotive you also need lots of equipment to do it safely and legally. refrigerant like other have said do not go bad, they may contain contaminates but it will last long after we are all gone.

 

[dpv4276]

This is something I wondered about also.

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[RedneckWelder]

Why are you not suppose to do this? We evacuate and recharge all of the trucks we work on with our machine. Evacuate and evaluate, then fill with the recommended refrigerant amount stated for the system. Our machine is something like this

http://www.toolpan.com/Robinair-347...MIuLPdhO3W2wIVGnZeCh1rggOFEAkYEyABEgI1oPD_BwE

Sure when you are working on a system that isn’t working right but why touch a properly functioning system unless you have too?

 

[Yarpo]

Sure when you are working on a system that isn’t working right but why touch a properly functioning system unless you have too?

Yah I certainly would not if it was fine either, as I generally agree with the "If its not broke, dont fix it" mentality. That said we end up doing trucks all the time because people think their AC should be 29degrees F, and when we evacuate its pretty much full. I was just confused on the DON'T DO THAT PART, and thought I was doing something wrong but ya, DON'T DO THAT (If your AC system is working!@)

 

[eddieK]

No. I meant that I know r22 is not used any more.

I have heard differing opinions and no real consensus on flushing and re-using the copper. So I just figured the safest thing to do when the time comes is replace it all as it is not a long run at all...less than 20'.



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Okay - R22 systems that are still in use are just fine until the systems components fail to the point where replacing makes more sense than repairing. Repairs on R22 systems cover every component/section.

I'm just explaining that replacing the system strictly because it uses R22 is not necessary.

 

[eddieK]

I am kind of in the same boat. I like working on my vehicles and hate not being able to do AC work. So I started investing in a few tools but an AC Recycle machine is the game changer. That is what you need to have to really do AC systems properly (and legally). I suppose you can get by without one but it won't be as easy and legal. Legal being you can vent old systems to atmosphere and get away without having a way to capture. But the recycle machine is all contained and makes it easier because you can reuse refrigerant, it has a scale and vac pump all included.

Here are the items that I have for AC. I am not including the many tools such as sockets, ratchets and wrenches. We will limit this to AC specific tools.

- AC Recycler (Robinair 34288, bought it used for $1200)
- Dye injector (FJC 2730)
- AC dye
- yellow glasses to see dye
- Blacklight (Mastercool 53517)
- AC gauge set (Mastercool set. I bought this before the recycle machine. Don't really need this as there are built in gauges on the machine.)
- Couple of bottles of PAG oil


I agree with what some of the others say. AC isn't some black voodoo magic. It's pretty straight forward. I am sure I may run into an issue where it will be some random problem that stumps me. But most of what I have fixed for my family and friends rides have been holes in condensers and evaporators.

You mention central air. If you are talking about house air, it's a different set of tools. Although many of the principals are the same, they cannot recycle refrigerant (unless it's in the same house me thinks).

It's called reclaim not recycle, when you return used refrigerant they clean it (separate) and that is recycle. You cannot reclaim and resell, you can reclaim and reinsert in the same system. You do this to replace components and/or isolate to nitrogen test for leaks.

It is not as straight forward as you seem to think.

Just sayin'. For example, you need gauges to assess proper charge, along with an accurate line thermometer to determine proper sub cooling and and super heat...this tells you the latent heat activity in the condensing and evaporator coil. With some ambient temps on certain days this can be even more difficult to determine.

Then you have the varying metering devices, how they work, how they must be applied. From check flo rater pistons, to cap tube to different types of thermostatic expansion valves. I recently ran into a system where the last "tech" that worked on it simply taped the sensing bulb onto the suction line...wrong location, wrong application, wrong connection principle and wrong mounting location upon the suction line itself. This caused icing where drain issues arose and it caused flooding liquid refrigerant to the compressor which could have eventually caused a compressor failure. You would have to understand how these metering devices work to recognize that a particular non bleed TXV requires a start capacitor for the unit compressor, when most systems do not need one.

Once you start getting away from the PSC motors and into commutated or X13 motors...etc etc etc

 

[eddieK]

I'm not an HVAC guy, but the new R410a refrigerant runs at almost double the pressure, most likely the lineset will have to be replaced. And definitely all the other components as they would not be sized for the higher pressures of R410a.

Smaller systems that are very old did tend to have 5/16 and even 1/4 tubing for the liquid line, in those instances it is best to at least replace the liquid line...but in most cases the existing refrigerant lines and the brazing are suited to the higher R410a pressures.

Larger systems - 5 ton capacity were installed with 7/8 tubing suction lines, if the run exceeds 35 feet it is better to upsize to 1 1/8 tubing, but in reality many systems that I've serviced after quite a few years operating with 7/8 on longer runs show pressures that are well within guidelines and achieve the proper sub cooling differential.

The suction line pressure is just less than double...and is still the low pressure side 140-ish on an 85F ambient day, the liquid line pressure is about a third higher 325 ish on that same 85F ambient day. The higher the ambient, the higher the pressure. AND - refrigerant lines should be tested with nitrogen to 350 or higher on every install or repair if the lines are cut and brazed.

 

[eddieK]

Why are you not suppose to do this? We evacuate and recharge all of the trucks we work on with our machine. Evacuate and evaluate, then fill with the recommended refrigerant amount stated for the system. Our machine is something like this

http://www.toolpan.com/Robinair-347...MIuLPdhO3W2wIVGnZeCh1rggOFEAkYEyABEgI1oPD_BwE

Automotive uses latent heat principles just like central air conditioning systems...same components, liquid line, suction line, accumulators, evap coil, condenser coil, compressor and fans to move air across coils...but they are not the same anymore than reach in coolers and walk in low temp spaces and high temp wine wine room units are the same.

When you pull out the refrigerant what is it you evaluate? Central systems evaluation is done with the charge in the system under a load.

On a split system installed in most homes, the weigh in charge on the nomenclature gets you to the point where you operate it and then using either sub cooling or super heat, you finalize the charge...most of these systems have charges in the 6 Lb range and some up to 19 plus pounds...and then you add until you achieve the proper super heat or sub cooling differential...between 6 and 18 degrees F.

 

[eddieK]

This is something I wondered about also.

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It's minimal but most use separate gauges for the different systems. I carry two...one for R 22 and one for R410a.

Purging lines allows me to also use them for other fairly common types - 134a, 407c and several "drop ins" etc..

I even have one customer with a couple of really cool units, a 60 yr old Coke machine using R12 and an old Dodge brand reach in with R502.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

eddie just curious are you using any stay brite #8 on those 410a systems

 

[Yarpo]

Automotive uses latent heat principles just like central air conditioning systems...same components, liquid line, suction line, accumulators, evap coil, condenser coil, compressor and fans to move air across coils...but they are not the same anymore than reach in coolers and walk in low temp spaces and high temp wine wine room units are the same.

When you pull out the refrigerant what is it you evaluate? Central systems evaluation is done with the charge in the system under a load.

.

When we're evacuating we evaluate the amount (in comparison to system max/recommended amount) and I believe the amount of oil(?) in the system that we retrieve. I forget if its oil or what, but there's an additive to the system that it also calculates, and we also add that back upon injection with the refrigerant. Sorry its been awhile since I've had to do AC, here in MN its cold enough in the winter they're probably just now getting worried about AC

 

[Bagherra]

I would not suggest you do THIS

Wow....

 

[eddieK]

eddie just curious are you using any stay brite #8 on those 410a systems

I have used 6% silver at times, depends on what is near what I'm attempting to braze and some of the thinner copper in the condenser coils/units before they switched to aluminum would just melt to nothing in moments with acetylene.

 

[eddieK]

You will need recovery tanks for each type of refrigerant you use and for home ac I would just pay someone rather than sit on a couple pounds of R22.

A tank of nitrogen for pressure testing

An acetylene torch.

Depending on the refrigerants you use will end up with a couple sets of gauges and some spare lines along with a pile of adapters.

Various bending and flaring tools depending on how you are setting up your HVAC system .

The refrigeration side of home HVAC is pretty darn simple as most systems come precharged. Braze up the lines, pressure test with nitrogen for whatever you preferred amount of time is, pull a vacuum for 12-24 hours, and then open the line sets from the condenser. Make sure everything is correct pressure wise and braze the system shut.

Compared to mechanic work the cost of tools to do basic refrigeration is fairly low but it is still a couple grand worth of tools that you might use once a year and they do degrade over time.

Pull the vacuum until you achieve 500 microns...time is not the factor.

You don't just connect the copper and assume the system charge is enough, with mini splits it typically is...with conventional, the indoor coil and the line set will require additional charge - The ONLY way to know the charge is correct is by using the super heat and/or sub cooling method.

 

[eddieK]

When we're evacuating we evaluate the amount (in comparison to system max/recommended amount) and I believe the amount of oil(?) in the system that we retrieve. I forget if its oil or what, but there's an additive to the system that it also calculates, and we also add that back upon injection with the refrigerant. Sorry its been awhile since I've had to do AC, here in MN its cold enough in the winter they're probably just now getting worried about AC

The only way to measure the oil is to pull the compressor and physically drain the oil.

Seriously there is no logical reason to pull the charge and you cannot assess ops without a charge in the system.

 

[bonneyman]

Is cross-contamination of gauges/hoses due to differing types of refrigerant/lubricant a concern in the OP's situation?

Because of the cross-contamination concerns it's probably best to have separate gauges for different gases.
When I was younger, poorer - and dumber - I'd use the same set of gauges on whatever unit I came upon, just blew the the gauge and hose set out with dry nitrogen if I was switching gases. Admittedly that wasn't often, as the new HFC refrigerants weren't common back then. Now it's just easier to have separate sets.
My buddy who worked at Sears was telling me he carried at least 4 different tanks (R12, R134a, R22, R410a) and gauges to match. Plus two vacuum pumps IIRC correctly. I don't know how you younger guys do it.

 

[eddieK]

Because of the cross-contamination concerns it's probably best to have separate gauges for different gases.
When I was younger, poorer - and dumber - I'd use the same set of gauges on whatever unit I came upon, just blew the the gauge and hose set out with dry nitrogen if I was switching gases. Admittedly that wasn't often, as the new HFC refrigerants weren't common back then. Now it's just easier to have separate sets.
My buddy who worked at Sears was telling me he carried at least 4 different tanks (R12, R134a, R22, R410a) and gauges to match. Plus two vacuum pumps IIRC correctly. I don't know how you younger guys do it.

Purging hoses is no more illegal than disconnecting them is(when a purge happens). Considering the number of replacements available today, it makes little sense to carry 6 or more sets of hoses.

 

[dpv4276]

Can the same tools be use on central AC (house) units, auto ac, and refrigerators? Or do they all require a specific set of tools? Is there any overlap?

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[eddieK]

Can the same tools be use on central AC (house) units, auto ac, and refrigerators? Or do they all require a specific set of tools? Is there any overlap?

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Plenty of overlap. There are adapters when needed.

 

[bonneyman]

Most of your hand tools will cross over readily. For specialty tool sand adapters, it'll depend on what you have to start with and what you'll be working on.

You can start by looking at Yellow Jacket.

https://yellowjacket.com/

 

[Ohmthis]

Eddie is throwing knowledge around, but I’m just going to tell you what I have as far as both auto and residential ac tools goes.
A good gauge set (you can purge the hoses with nitrogen, there isn’t enough oil to worry about cross contamination).
Adapters for auto AC to 1/4” hoses
A good scale
A good vacuum pump
A reclaim/recovery machine
A recovery tank for each refrigerant
A good micron gauge
A sniffer
A valve core removal tool
A tank of nitrogen
A regulator for said nitrogen
A flow meter for said nitrogen
Injector for dye, you can get a kit that has everything needed
A good meter with temp probe
Oxy-Acetylene set
Leak testing bubbles
I’m sure I’m forgetting something. These and the required hand tools can get a lot of AC jobs done. Study up on the refrigeration cycle and how it can be affected. If you only want to do on type (auto or residential) the tool list can shrink somewhat. Hope this helps and I’ll let Eddie get back to teaching/preaching

 

[dpv4276]

This has been very helpful and I thank all that responded.

I know it seems pointless to DIY this sort of thing, but I enjoy working on things and if the tool investment can allow me to work on auto ac and replace my home ac when it eventually dies, and maybe repair a refrigerator, then I feel it's worth it. Even after I'm done with my own stuff, I will be able to help out friends and family. (Definitely not looking to moonlight as an HVAC guy, have enough on my plate as is)

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[metaldad]

eddie just curious are you using any stay brite #8 on those 410a systems

yes. why wouldn't i?