racecougar
Well-known member
I picked up a valve core remover/installer for $16 and a eccentric flaring tool with clutch for $30 off Amazon.
DIY install of non-Mrcool units
- Thread starter JackOfDiamonds
- Start date
bluedog225
Well-known member
OP-I wouldn’t skimp on any aspect. If you get all the right tools, and are meticulous, it may go well.
Always a carp shoot about the quality of the factory copper joints.
I recall somewhere that all copper connections should be brazed, not soldered. Not sure if this is accurate but wanted to mention it.
Always a carp shoot about the quality of the factory copper joints.
I recall somewhere that all copper connections should be brazed, not soldered. Not sure if this is accurate but wanted to mention it.
housewolf
Well-known member
This is true but most likely won’t need to do any brazing. Regular (soft) solder requires flux that would contaminate the system. Brazing done while being purged with nitrogen will leave the inside of the pipe shiny clean.
Hopefully I’ll be picking up my unit today, or early next week. I’m waiting on the call from the dealer. I wasn’t “planning“ on using any nitrogen. Just hook up the (short) lineset, get a good vacuum then open the valve. The unit is shipped with enough refrigerant for 20’ I believe. I’m gonna make some calls before I mess something up though
bluedog225
Well-known member
Good list
I just installed an LG (non-DIY) mini split system, these are the parts and tools I needed for the install:
1. Line set (copper lines to connect indoor and outdoor units). Make sure you get the correct type of copper line.
2. Tube cutter and flaring tool (I used a Yellow Jacket 60295 flaring tool)
3. Gauge set (I used JB Industries 2 valve manifold gauge set)
4. Mini split adapter for gauge set (Mini splits use a 5/16 fitting to connect the gauge(s), but most hose sets have a 1/4 fitting for "standard" HVAC systems. I used a Yellow Jacket 19173)
5. Bottle of nitrogen to leak check the system after installing the lines. I borrowed this from a friend.
6. Vacuum pump and micron gauge to evacuate the lines/outdoor unit after leak checking. I also borrowed these from a friend, vacuum pump was a JB Platinum 5cfm pump, gauge was a BluVac+ digital micron gauge)
The outdoor unit comes precharged with refrigerant, but the charge is based on using a line set in a pre-determined length range. If your lines are shorter or longer than that, you'll either remove some of the factory precharge or add more. The "correct" (and legal) way to remove part of the charge will require an evacuation unit and recovery bottle. If you need to add charge, you'll need and EPA card or know someone who has one, as most HVAC suppliers won't sell refrigerant to you if you don't have the EPA card.
1. Line set (copper lines to connect indoor and outdoor units). Make sure you get the correct type of copper line.
2. Tube cutter and flaring tool (I used a Yellow Jacket 60295 flaring tool)
3. Gauge set (I used JB Industries 2 valve manifold gauge set)
4. Mini split adapter for gauge set (Mini splits use a 5/16 fitting to connect the gauge(s), but most hose sets have a 1/4 fitting for "standard" HVAC systems. I used a Yellow Jacket 19173)
5. Bottle of nitrogen to leak check the system after installing the lines. I borrowed this from a friend.
6. Vacuum pump and micron gauge to evacuate the lines/outdoor unit after leak checking. I also borrowed these from a friend, vacuum pump was a JB Platinum 5cfm pump, gauge was a BluVac+ digital micron gauge)
The outdoor unit comes precharged with refrigerant, but the charge is based on using a line set in a pre-determined length range. If your lines are shorter or longer than that, you'll either remove some of the factory precharge or add more. The "correct" (and legal) way to remove part of the charge will require an evacuation unit and recovery bottle. If you need to add charge, you'll need and EPA card or know someone who has one, as most HVAC suppliers won't sell refrigerant to you if you don't have the EPA card.
pcmeiners
Well-known member
"I recall somewhere that all copper connections should be brazed, not soldered. Not sure if this is accurate but wanted to mention it."
There is nothing wrong with flares unless you have crappy tools , want to cut corners, any you are too damn lazy to do a flare correctly (using a torque wrench). Brazing copper is not going to stop crappy installs and leaking systems; laziness permeates anything you do. As to brazing, done correctly it is less prone to leakage, but it also weakens copper pipe considerably.
There is nothing wrong with flares unless you have crappy tools , want to cut corners, any you are too damn lazy to do a flare correctly (using a torque wrench). Brazing copper is not going to stop crappy installs and leaking systems; laziness permeates anything you do. As to brazing, done correctly it is less prone to leakage, but it also weakens copper pipe considerably.
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bluedog225
Well-known member
Huh? Someone mentioned cutting and joining lines.
OP
JackOfDiamonds
Well-known member
After over-thinking it and reading a Pioneer install guide, I don't know what you need a micron guage for.
If the idea is you will pump it down and watch the micron guage to see if it holds vacuum, really, right? But full vacuum is only about -15psig.
If you are going to do a high pressure n2 test, that is usually like 300psi. Wouldn't that be much better than the vacuum check anyway?
If the idea is you will pump it down and watch the micron guage to see if it holds vacuum, really, right? But full vacuum is only about -15psig.
If you are going to do a high pressure n2 test, that is usually like 300psi. Wouldn't that be much better than the vacuum check anyway?
pcmeiners
Well-known member
.
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pcmeiners
Well-known member
"After over-thinking it and reading a Pioneer install guide, I don't know what you need a micron gauge for."
If you pump down below 500 micron and turn off vacuum pump....
microns rise slow to very fast, and eventual double digit thousands of microns, you have a leak (s) or your hose connections are not good, valves, gauges, vacuum pump have leaks.
Switched to PSI scale, rise continuously, then level off above 0 psi you have trapped refrigerant gases.
Switched to PSI scale, rising continuously until you get to 0 psi, you have moisture remaining. This is why you triple purge.
micron rise but level off below 500 microns, and remain at the same level for an extended time, taking temperature change or system acclamation into account, your good to go. The rise could be trapped gas in devices or hoses materials, or oil.
"If the idea is you will pump it down and watch the micron gauge to see if it holds vacuum, really, right? But full vacuum is only about -15psig."
Generally micron gauges start to register at 25,000 microns, is your mechanical gauge and eye sight good enough to show 25000 increments from 0 to 29.92" mercury ?
"If you are going to do a high pressure n2 test, that is usually like 300psi. Wouldn't that be much better than the vacuum check anyway?"
Do you have a super accurate pressure gauge, accurate at 300-600psi which increments in the 1000th of a pound ? Secondly, a micron gauges main functions are to monitor moisture and trapped gases, and then leaks, positive pressure gauges are limited. You can you do without a micron gauge if you want to gamble with your system, consider it relatively cheap insurance/assurance.
.
If you pump down below 500 micron and turn off vacuum pump....
microns rise slow to very fast, and eventual double digit thousands of microns, you have a leak (s) or your hose connections are not good, valves, gauges, vacuum pump have leaks.
Switched to PSI scale, rise continuously, then level off above 0 psi you have trapped refrigerant gases.
Switched to PSI scale, rising continuously until you get to 0 psi, you have moisture remaining. This is why you triple purge.
micron rise but level off below 500 microns, and remain at the same level for an extended time, taking temperature change or system acclamation into account, your good to go. The rise could be trapped gas in devices or hoses materials, or oil.
"If the idea is you will pump it down and watch the micron gauge to see if it holds vacuum, really, right? But full vacuum is only about -15psig."
Generally micron gauges start to register at 25,000 microns, is your mechanical gauge and eye sight good enough to show 25000 increments from 0 to 29.92" mercury ?
"If you are going to do a high pressure n2 test, that is usually like 300psi. Wouldn't that be much better than the vacuum check anyway?"
Do you have a super accurate pressure gauge, accurate at 300-600psi which increments in the 1000th of a pound ? Secondly, a micron gauges main functions are to monitor moisture and trapped gases, and then leaks, positive pressure gauges are limited. You can you do without a micron gauge if you want to gamble with your system, consider it relatively cheap insurance/assurance.
.
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housewolf
Well-known member
Well I still have some issues to take care of and I’m going to take my time with it but I’m about to get this show on the road
racecougar
Well-known member
I'm putting in a Gree right now over here. 
Hoping to pour the pad Sunday.
Hoping to pour the pad Sunday.housewolf
Well-known member
I’m retired from Plg/HVAC business. I bought it directly from Goodman, they’re somewhat local to me. It probably wouldn’t be ethical to say what I paid but it was significantly less than I could have gotten a Mr Cool DIY unit.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07VNHLTV3/?tag=atomicindus08-20
I also added a Superior AccuTrak VPE PRO Ultrasonic Leak Detector to my AC tool kit when I had a leaking evaporator coil that I could not find the leak. Expensive, yes but cheaper than a Daikin authorized tech service call.
I also added a Superior AccuTrak VPE PRO Ultrasonic Leak Detector to my AC tool kit when I had a leaking evaporator coil that I could not find the leak. Expensive, yes but cheaper than a Daikin authorized tech service call.
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housewolf
Well-known member
Same with the Daiken manual
I’m going to check with one of the techs at work and see what they say. I’ve got some other irons in the fire but I believe I can work on this a little each day. I got the inside unit hung today.
I’m definitely going to need some help fishing the lineset through and will probably wait until my son can help. Hopefully have this wrapped up my the end of next week.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
cant buy the gas without an EPA cert card...
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
do you have a recommendation?
428PI
Well-known member
Get a license. Probably no big deal. I did just buy a 25 lber without license through FB marketplace.
haveissues
Well-known member
I also just finished installing a 3 head lg unit diy. I would recommend skipping brazing lines and just flare them. I bought a $25 orbital flare tool on amazon that was recommended on here and my flares looked better than the factory flares on the lines. I had an argon tank so I used that to pressure test
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
sure ill jump right on that. requires a ton of study time and material ($$$$$) and a $200 test.... easier said than done....
Online EPA Certification: Course & Exam | Faraday
The Federal Clean Air Act requires that technicians who maintain, service, repair, or dispose of equipment that could release refrigerants into the atmosphere must be certified by the EPA. We help you earn your EPA 608 Certification online.
faradaycareers.com
housewolf
Well-known member
Most of these units come charged with enough refrigerant to fill a 25’ lineset. If you have a longer lineset, then yeah, you’ll have to get your hands on some refrigerant
428PI
Well-known member
It's 25 bucks and open book exam. Someone's trying to scam you and yea, most units come precharged. Mine did too (3 unit design) but I'm I believe a little low so hence I bought some gas but like I said it was 10 bucks a pound on the open market. You can buy an extra 2 lb from Pioneer whom I purchased the unit from if the lines were longer than 75ft total between all of them.
danski0224
Well-known member
The pressure test determines lineset integrity. Some require a pressure test at 500 PSIG, and that test pressure is supposed to hold for 24 hours. Details are in the factory supplied kneepads- AKA instructions.
That pressure test is actually a lot harder than it sounds, especially if there is a temperature change. Some digital gauges will do a pressure check with temperature compensation.
Moreover, if you think you can eyeball a small difference on an analog gauge, good luck.
The micron gauge determines the quality of the vacuum (moisture content). The micron gauge will also find problems in your equipment, like crappy hoses or a crappy manifold set.
There are 24,000 microns in the last inch of mercury when pulling a vacuum, a digital gauge will read -29.5" of mercury when in a vacuum.
A good vacuum for HVAC purposes is usually defined as under 500 microns.
The gauge can read -29.5" Hg and the microns can be over 50,000. It can take HOURS to pull a proper vacuum, using a micron gauge and pulling the vacuum through those tiny 1/4" ID HVAC hoses and the manifold. There is a bunch of stuff on the TruTech Tools website about pulling a vacuum.
The triple evac is using dry nitrogen at a low PSI between evacuations to draw out additional moisture (the microns). Yes, it makes a huge time difference to purge with nitrogen.
There is a conversion from microns to grains of moisture to drops of moisture. The factory filter/driers are rated for a certain number of drops of moisture. In the end, it's all about getting a sealed and dry system.
There really is no way to "top off" a mini split. When the performance drops off or if it stops working, the only option is to recover refrigerant and weigh in new.
The shortcuts you take now show up later.
danski0224
Well-known member
Not really true with respect to the lineset. That still has to be fit to the job, pressure tested, evacuated and charged with refrigerant if the installation is over X feet specified in the manual.
The no special tools part is BS too.
Of course, it comes down to what kind of install you are doing. And yes, some companies are going to **** it in, too.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
who offers it for $25?
428PI
Well-known member
THE EPA?
American Locomotive
Well-known member
Most if not all mini-splits come pre-charged. The EPA 608 Type 1 cert is also a breeze to get, it's open book and costs $25.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
link?
pcmeiners
Well-known member
Sorry folks your not legally working on a minisplit for $25, and your open book test does not count on your other type II, III tests, you have to take it over, closed book, no reference material. An EPA type 1 certificate only allows work on small low pressure appliances, such as a window AC unit, refrigerator, water coolers, dehumidifiers.
Nor does it allow someone to charge or recover refrigerant from a minisplit, that requires a type II or universal.
A type 1 does not permit you to legally buy gas for a minisplit
"Refrigerant can only be sold to technicians certified under the Section 608 or Section 609 technician certification programs, where individuals may only purchase refrigerant consistent with the appliances covered by their certification."
"sure ill jump right on that. requires a ton of study time and material ($$$$$) and a $200 test.... easier said than done"
A ton of study time ? Guess you have not taken the test. I passed the universal, bet it could be passed with 2 days of study, if you understand the material. Cost $ 160
The good news, the core test is the hardest, if you can pass practice tests without an open book. with a decent grade, you should be able to pass the rest of the tests (if you understand the material). Type III cert was the easiest part.
Nor does it allow someone to charge or recover refrigerant from a minisplit, that requires a type II or universal.
A type 1 does not permit you to legally buy gas for a minisplit
"Refrigerant can only be sold to technicians certified under the Section 608 or Section 609 technician certification programs, where individuals may only purchase refrigerant consistent with the appliances covered by their certification."
"sure ill jump right on that. requires a ton of study time and material ($$$$$) and a $200 test.... easier said than done"
A ton of study time ? Guess you have not taken the test. I passed the universal, bet it could be passed with 2 days of study, if you understand the material. Cost $ 160
The good news, the core test is the hardest, if you can pass practice tests without an open book. with a decent grade, you should be able to pass the rest of the tests (if you understand the material). Type III cert was the easiest part.
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428PI
Well-known member
Don't they have R410a gas in smaller appliances? And probably no one here that has installed a minisplit has the means to recover the gas.
pcmeiners
Well-known member
Small appliances, as described, do not use 410a, I have installed minisplits and have a Appion G5 recovery machine.
428PI
Well-known member
Technically you don't need a permit to buy gas for a minisplit although some warehouse may require it though as the OP was really wondering about how to install one. Technically you probably only need the permit to service it? I really think too that people buying the tools to do flares may be setting themselves up for potential failure. I ordered the length of linesets I needed and used that. Factory flares looked fine (why wouldn't they?). People tend to overcomplicate things. I've got the cert. for vehicle AC work but nobody has ever asked me for it (except at work we all recertified since I couldn't find my original one from years ago). You can buy all kinds of refrigerants at all kinds of outlets.
pcmeiners
Well-known member
"Technically you don't need a permit to buy gas for a minisplit although some warehouse may"
Yes it drifted off, .....technically you are required to be certified to purchase 410a, unless it is for resale, if you want to buy it off Ebay, it your gamble.... are you getting retail gas , recovered, or contaminated refrigerant. Please educate yourself before making anymore twisted statements or questions.
N_jay, in general the more you pay the better the minisplit. There are to many variable to tell you what is the best unit for you. The higher the efficiency, the more you pay, the more serviceable, the more you pay. Mitsubishi is likely the most serviceable ( most dealer/service men), with high efficency, low temperature ability,low noise. Fujitsu has the highest efficiency (Tested/documented), low temperature ability, low noise but is has less dealers/servicemen. Easiest are any minisplit with pre-charged linesets, such as Mr Cool. Almost all minisplit warranties down right ****. Personally I went with Fujitsu.
Yes it drifted off, .....technically you are required to be certified to purchase 410a, unless it is for resale, if you want to buy it off Ebay, it your gamble.... are you getting retail gas , recovered, or contaminated refrigerant. Please educate yourself before making anymore twisted statements or questions.
N_jay, in general the more you pay the better the minisplit. There are to many variable to tell you what is the best unit for you. The higher the efficiency, the more you pay, the more serviceable, the more you pay. Mitsubishi is likely the most serviceable ( most dealer/service men), with high efficency, low temperature ability,low noise. Fujitsu has the highest efficiency (Tested/documented), low temperature ability, low noise but is has less dealers/servicemen. Easiest are any minisplit with pre-charged linesets, such as Mr Cool. Almost all minisplit warranties down right ****. Personally I went with Fujitsu.
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danski0224
Well-known member
Choose the one of those 3 areas that is the most important to you. The rest will follow.
That's how it is.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
All three factors are critical, putting quality slightly above cost, while maintaining a relatively easy installation for a mechanically competent novice and capping tools at $300 to $500.
juddspaintballs
Well-known member
I used a 12k Mr. Cool in an addition I built at my last house. It was insulated to the minimum for code, had four inexpensive windows and an exterior door in a 12x28 room. It kept the room warm when temperatures were below zero outside and it kept it cool in the humid summers of over 95 degrees. I don't know about longevity because I sold that house. Install was simple, it was inexpensive (I got a super discount on it when I bought all of the building materials at once through Lowes), and it worked just fine. What I didn't like was having a coil of extra line outside because I didn't have a good way to put the unit far enough away to avoid coiling the line.