DIY Vs Hire Out Epoxy Flooring

[heffneil]

Hey all! I am working on my garage which the LOOONG thread can be found here:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=342639

We have started erecting so I am starting to work with other contractors to get in to the building swiftly. I have received some quotes from a few vendors here and one and another will be tomorrow from a local vendor. The building is 2400 sq ft. So the materials from one vendor is about $1.35 a foot with an acid etch and a close to 100% solids. The other is very similar in price and all. I could hire out the install for about $500 a day for 2 guys and it would take about 3 days. I can't paint much less a floor and I would make a bigger mess. My questions are:

1. Is there a difference between urethane protective layer and polyurea?

2. What is polyspartic?

3. The one guy was over $10k for the floor. He insists that they diamond grind the floor. Everyone local does. This is a new slab is that necessary and will it really not stick if I don't?

4. One thing the guy coming tomorrow said which makes sense is that if you don't use a liquid vapor barrier after testing if there is vapor coming through the slab it will just peal off. The other local guy automatically uses a vapor barrier. I live in SWFL which is very closely a swamp as possible

Any opinions and some long term experience would be great. I am told any floor will be good for 5 years but these locals are 10 year and 20 year warranties...

Thanks!

Neil

 

[Antoddio]

1. Polyurethane and Polyurea/Polyaspartic (usually the same thing, but it gets technical) are both good top coats. Polyaspartic is more quick to dry than polyurethane but I wouldn't get hung up on the difference.

2. See answer #1

3. 10K is not a terrible price for using the right materials. If you don't diamond grind or shotblast you will likely be re-doing the job in two years. It is likely to peel up. Then you'll be paying the guy 10K plus an extra 4K to remove your old coating. Happens all the time. Old or new slab doesn't make a huge diff in the matter.

4. Your slab should have a vapor barrier(vb) in the concrete, but if it doesn't than a VB is helpful. VB isn't a bad idea but usually people don't see to many issues. Though prob a good idea if you are doing such a large area as it would be costly to re-do.

 

[heffneil]

I have a vapor barrier under the concrete but as it happens people walk all over the internals of the slab with metal and whatnot inside it while pumping the concrete. I can say that undoubtedly there are holes in it and it is sometimes common for the guys to cut slits to get the concrete to drain / dry out faster. I guess measuring seems like a good idea right?

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I've done two floors at different houses, Both were new slabs, one was two months old and the house I'm in now was about 6 months old when I applied the epoxy. I didn't grind either one just acid washed and I have not had any lifting anywhere, its been 6 years and for the most part still looks good.
I don't have a vapor barrier under the slab (no visqueen), but I did pay a excavator to come in and remove all the top soil prior to starting and added a sand base, maybe 8-10"
my barn is 2300 sq. ft, I used epoxy coat, just the one coat. I didn't top coat, the cost for the materials was around $1150.
if I had it to do over again I would look at maybe putting down a primer because I had some trouble with air bubbles when I was applying it and I would consider top coating it. My slab has yellowed by the overhead doors where the sun can reach it when the door is open. The color is beige.

 

[Antoddio]

Yea, you could use a Wagner RH meter and take some readings at different locations and day, but at that point might as well just do the VB. An easier test would be to just tape down a clear plastic sheet in a square (2 foot by 2 foot) and see if it fogs up at all in any of the places. Not very precise but might be able to judge a few things from it and it's easy.

 

[Shea]

3. The one guy was over $10k for the floor. He insists that they diamond grind the floor. Everyone local does. This is a new slab is that necessary and will it really not stick if I don't?

99% of reputable professional installers are going to grind the concrete. The reason for this it that the result or desirable profile can be controlled with grinding to assure the best adhesion of the coating. You cannot control the type of profile that you want with acid etching. Installers don't want to be coming back to reapply a coating due to poor concrete prep.

Also, a new slab can have excess laitance as a result of how the surface was finished. Laitance is a fine, thin layer of weak concrete at the surface that can result from a variety of reasons from improper finishing techniques to too much surface water. Many times with older concrete this thin layer can wear away and not be an issue.

Grinding removes this thin layer on new slabs and acid etching does not. The laitance remains and can sometimes give the floor a white powdery look after the concrete dries. When a coating is applied, this laitance creates a weak bond that can cause it to delaminate under stress.

Check with Scotty from Legacy Industrial. He's on this forum and his company is in Florida. They sell product DIY and do installations in areas such as yours all the time. He can give you the straight scoop on what works and what to expect for your situation.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Give a ring Neil.

 

[heffneil]

Scotty I have meant to call you but have just been too ******* the passed two days.

You did quote me for a DIY but I need to talk to you to see if I really need to diamond grind and a bunch of other questions comparatively

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Great, looking forward to it.

 

[Timtyson]

I would recommend an cm15 epoxy mastic and Polyester Polyurethane Floor Coating. I used a company called Progressive Epoxy Polymers and did it myself. Easy to use and good quality

 

[Armorpoxy]

The secret to a good job is to prep well. If you aren't putting moisture barrier down, then absolutely do moisture test first to see if you need a vapor mitigating coating. The cost though of vapor barrier is much less than vapor barrier epoxy, that stuff is not inexpensive and has to go on a rough grinded or shot blasted floor at a low (100 sq ft/gal) coverage.

At the minimum you need to etch, we don't recommend doing no prep, that's asking for problems.

 

[heffneil]

Right I am not against prep but I guess the prep methodology is either etch or grind - not both. I can rent the equipment on a friday evening for $300 and I have it until monday morning that includes the vacuum and I guess if you had to choose grinding is best?

 

[heffneil]

Moisture checking with a taped down piece of plastic? I guess the question is whats the best way to test that. The one sales guy who came out checked and said it was below "5" I don't know what that means but it was just tested in a few area close to one another.

 

[Armorpoxy]

Hi,
Email us for our www.armorcladepoxy.com instructions or you can get them from the website, it explains the moisture test.
Alternately you can purchase for about $20 online moisture test kits (you need a gram scale too for them) to get a reading. Remember the reading is ONLY for that time period (snapshot) so if you do it when very little rain you can get a false negative.

Generally speaking moisture readings of 3.5 lbs/1000 sq ft/24 hours are industry standard acceptable to coat without additional barriers. Over 4, we say protect.

Our Prep-Crete Division owns Wagner concrete meters, we use them on commercial jobs to test prior to coating.

See example of what can happen.

 

[Antoddio]

^^those look like peeling because the surface wasn't prepped. I know you are just making a point, but I'd like to see pictures from a floor that was properly prepped and actually failed from moisture issues.

Great photos though.

 

[Armorpoxy]

This floor was actually grinded prior to coating, it was amazing how the coating came up.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

It's kind of hard to see but what I did for a moisture test was tape down some visqueen in 12 x 12 squares in three or four spots. I can't remember how long I left them like that maybe 24 hrs.?.......but there were no moisture bubbles under the plastic so I figured I was ok.
Heff I'd like to add that just because I didn't grind my floor doesn't mean you don't have to, I wouldn't take my advice there are a lot of more knowledgeable people on this thread than me with a whole lot more experience than me.
Also I did my floor in two half's, I just taped it off at a saw cut in the middle, something you might want to consider.........it's a long day just doing half.

 

[Armorpoxy]

Hi All,
Just for clarity the plastic sheet moisture test we recommend sheets of plastic taped along all four sides 2' square. We have some concerns that 12" square sheets wouldn't be able to catch enough moisture to give good result.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Antoddio]

This floor was actually grinded prior to coating, it was amazing how the coating came up.

Dang. I was just saying that because the concrete looked pretty smooth, but it's tough to tell from pictures.

 

[heffneil]

I'm wondering if I should just polish the floor and seal? Anyone have any thoughts on that option?

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Dang. I was just saying that because the concrete looked pretty smooth, but it's tough to tell from pictures.

I agree, looks smooth, and the "urethane pull" appears to be a sealer placed over a power-troweled floor with no prep.

Here is what a floor looks like with a moisture issue:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BPjVv_kgCIv/?taken-by=legacyindustrial

We were hired to solve the issue through the top of the slab as the local engineer could not figure out where the water was coming from. The water had created bumps in certain areas of the epoxy. When our men hit the floor with the diamond grinder, everyone got shot in the legs with water. It was pretty bad.

After diamond grinding.. the slab was allowed to breathe for a few days, then coated with our Aqua-Dike MVB Primer, then top-coated in our SD Epoxy. This took place over two months ago and no issues since.

 

[Antoddio]

I'm wondering if I should just polish the floor and seal? Anyone have any thoughts on that option?

It's fine if it's not a working garage. Take a look at the cleaning aisle in about any store with polished concrete or the pickle aisle of a grocery store. You'll likely see a huge ugly stain. It doesn't hold up well to spills.

 

[heffneil]

It's kind of hard to see but what I did for a moisture test was tape down some visqueen in 12 x 12 squares in three or four spots. I can't remember how long I left them like that maybe 24 hrs.?.......but there were no moisture bubbles under the plastic so I figured I was ok.
Heff I'd like to add that just because I didn't grind my floor doesn't mean you don't have to, I wouldn't take my advice there are a lot of more knowledgeable people on this thread than me with a whole lot more experience than me.
Also I did my floor in two half's, I just taped it off at a saw cut in the middle, something you might want to consider.........it's a long day just doing half.

How big is your building? Did you do it yourself or did you have help? I was thinking of having two guys do most of the work

 

[heffneil]

I purchased some sets of the gram counting absorbing thing-a-magigies.

Bought 4 and the total with shipping was $64. Taylor 625 Calcium Chloride Moisture Test Kit

I have a kitchen scale I guess I will use to measure before and after. I will let you guys know the results. Afraid of the trapped humidity in the air the minute I open it.

 

[SunsetsAndFriends]

...

 

[heffneil]

I will do that. Being in a humid environment I worry about leaking for the shield and just opening the seal and sitting it out for a short period of time!

 

[Armorpoxy]

Hi
The crystals in a Calcium Chloride test kit absorb moisture very slowly, the minimum test period is 72 hours so you should be fine opening the seal and putting the jar under the dome.

Remember,moisture testing is an inexact science. It's only a 'snapshot' of the time period you take the test and it's not uncommon to get false negatives or positives so to err on the side of caution, test right after it rained. Testing when it's been very dry/no rain can give a false negative.

 

[SunsetsAndFriends]

...

 

[Armorpoxy]

Most kits we have seen come with double sided sticky tape around the dome perimiter. Taping down with duct tape can't hurt.