Do breakers break?

[jives]

Came out to the shop this morning and one run of 20A receptacles was not working. Flipped the breaker on and off, no change. Did not look like the breaker had tripped. All the other breakers and electrical works. Is there a procedure here to figure out the issue?

 

[mike93lx]

Is there a gfci receptacle in the circuit that may have popped?

Yes, they can fail. Check voltage at the breaker first. If you get 120v, then I would pull the breaker to inspect the bus. If no damage, I'd swap the breaker.

 

[Old Man Roger]

Like mentioned above, there could be a tripped GFI in another room.

 

[allinon72]

What position was the breaker in when you found it “not working.” You said it wasn’t tripped, so was it in the on or off position?

 

[Reborn]

I've had to replace a breaker that was less than 20 years old. So yes, they can fail.

 

[48windsor]

Im going to follow this thread and learn

 

[cannuck]

Absolutely. Breakers of all sizes from a few amps to a few thousand amps are mechanical devices the suffer corrosion, arc damage, fatigue, etc. Big part of industrial maintenance is testing breakers to see if they actually work and rebuilding or replacing them if they don't pass tests. The little ones in your home panel are just as subject to aging out. IMHO biggest problem is many panel designs are obsolete and no longer supported so finding a new breaker not always easy or possible.

 

[ArcReactorKC]

Breakers fail, and it's not uncommon.

I would put a meter on the breaker output before going any farther down the rabbit hole. If you have voltage at the breakers load screw then start diagnosing wiring.

 

[Rc_Guy]

I've had to replace a breaker that was less than 20 years old. So yes, they can fail.

Same here, I had to replace the 100 amp main breaker, bought the house in 1998, replaced the breaker in about 2004.

Breaker turned off for no reason one day, never thought about it just turned it back on, left for two week motorcycle ride through Montana, Wyoming, Nebraska with a stop at Sturgis rally where we meet up with our kids, get home after two weeks gone and garage door don’t open, no power, I found the laundry window unlocked and crawled in that window, the smell from the upright freezer and refrigerator in the laundry room was terrible. Daughter got home and said, oh yeah, that breaker tripped a few times after you guys left on motorcycle.

 

[jives]

I had initially checked the first receptacle and it seemed that the GFCI was not working, as if no power to the receptacle. Mike's post reminded me to double check the GFCI, so I did with a tester. And yes, it had been tripped. Not sure why I did not catch it the first go around, except perhaps that the trip and reset buttons are difficult to fully depress, especially in an unheated garage and 20 deg. Regardless, I am thoroughly embarrassed, and thankful to y'all.

 

[Old Man Roger]

Been there done that.

 

[mike93lx]

I had initially checked the first receptacle and it seemed that the GFCI was not working, as if no power to the receptacle. Mike's post reminded me to double check the GFCI, so I did with a tester. And yes, it had been tripped. Not sure why I did not catch it the first go around, except perhaps that the trip and reset buttons are difficult to fully depress, especially in an unheated garage and 20 deg. Regardless, I am thoroughly embarrassed, and thankful to y'all.

All good. I won't set a reminder to give you **** for it next year. Promise

 

[75gmck25]

My wife bakes bread quite often, and the QO 50 amp 240 volt l breaker for the dual-fuel range seems to get flaky about every couple of years. When baking she runs the oven at about 450 degrees for long periods of time while pre-heating and baking. I doubt it ever really draws close to the 50 amp breaker rating, but it does seem to work the breaker too hard. The control panel started to periodically go black, and then sometimes recover if we shut it down for a while, but a few days later would be black again. Very unpredictable.

- I initially thought it was a wire or a solder trace in the 120 volt oven control panel that was heating up and failing, because the panel went completely dark. However, new panel had the same problem.
- Then I thought maybe one leg of the 50 amp receptacle was dropping out 120 volt power to the controls, or maybe the 6/3 wiring had a screw run through it somewhere that was causing a short, because one leg of the 240 volt receptacle did not have the full 120 volts. Replaced the receptacle and rechecked all the wiring - worked for a while and then problem shortly returned.
- After quite a lot of head-scratching, I finally replaced the breaker, and it has been good for about the last two years. However, about a month ago it failed again and I just went directly to the goal and bought a new breaker - problem solved.

 

[PFSard]

My wife bakes bread quite often, and the QO 50 amp 240 volt l breaker for the dual-fuel range seems to get flaky about every couple of years.

* Glad to see a relatively easy resolution. Better than driving yourself crazy.
* Curious as to the make of the breaker. Two years seems a short life, even given high use of the oven.

 

[KenC]

Another, yes they do. I've had two examples, a 40A two pole that not only failed, it burned a hole right through its case! Then a few years ago, the 100A main for my shop panel opened. Not tripped, just open circuit with no handle movement. Installed by my Dad when the shop was built in 1967 approximately, and never turned off to my knowledge. No warning, just one day it died. But that was my push to get 3 phase installed. replaced that panel and breaker with a used SD 3ph. City even put in the added transformer and drop wire at no charge. AND, approved my installing all the new/used stuff on my side.

 

[Old Man Roger]

Ahh, love the smell of a melting breaker in the morning.

 

[75gmck25]

The breakers that I had that failed were Square D QO, and they were in a relatively new Square D QO panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My wife bakes bread quite often, and the QO 50 amp 240 volt l breaker for the dual-fuel range seems to get flaky about every couple of years. When baking she runs the oven at about 450 degrees for long periods of time while pre-heating and baking. I doubt it ever really draws close to the 50 amp breaker rating, but it does seem to work the breaker too hard. The control panel started to periodically go black, and then sometimes recover if we shut it down for a while, but a few days later would be black again. Very unpredictable.

the heating coil in the oven will never draw anywhere near 50a. probably max 20a. the 50a circuit is for the entire range (all burners) and even then they dont all draw 50a combined.

- I initially thought it was a wire or a solder trace in the 120 volt oven control panel that was heating up and failing, because the panel went completely dark. However, new panel had the same problem.
- Then I thought maybe one leg of the 50 amp receptacle was dropping out 120 volt power to the controls, or maybe the 6/3 wiring had a screw run through it somewhere that was causing a short, because one leg of the 240 volt receptacle did not have the full 120 volts.

if that were happening, the burner would shut off as well.

Replaced the receptacle and rechecked all the wiring - worked for a while and then problem shortly returned.
- After quite a lot of head-scratching, I finally replaced the breaker, and it has been good for about the last two years. However, about a month ago it failed again and I just went directly to the goal and bought a new breaker - problem solved.

what brand of breakers?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Another, yes they do. I've had two examples, a 40A two pole that not only failed, it burned a hole right through its case! Then a few years ago, the 100A main for my shop panel opened. Not tripped, just open circuit with no handle movement.

a breaker can trip regardless of what the handle does or doesnt do.

Installed by my Dad when the shop was built in 1967 approximately, and never turned off to my knowledge. No warning, just one day it died. But that was my push to get 3 phase installed. replaced that panel and breaker with a used SD 3ph. City even put in the added transformer and drop wire at no charge. AND, approved my installing all the new/used stuff on my side.

what voltage 3Ø did you get?

 

[sparky 1971]

My wife bakes bread quite often, and the QO 50 amp 240 volt l breaker for the dual-fuel range seems to get flaky about every couple of years. When baking she runs the oven at about 450 degrees for long periods of time while pre-heating and baking. I doubt it ever really draws close to the 50 amp breaker rating, but it does seem to work the breaker too hard. The control panel started to periodically go black, and then sometimes recover if we shut it down for a while, but a few days later would be black again. Very unpredictable.

- I initially thought it was a wire or a solder trace in the 120 volt oven control panel that was heating up and failing, because the panel went completely dark. However, new panel had the same problem.
- Then I thought maybe one leg of the 50 amp receptacle was dropping out 120 volt power to the controls, or maybe the 6/3 wiring had a screw run through it somewhere that was causing a short, because one leg of the 240 volt receptacle did not have the full 120 volts. Replaced the receptacle and rechecked all the wiring - worked for a while and then problem shortly returned.
- After quite a lot of head-scratching, I finally replaced the breaker, and it has been good for about the last two years. However, about a month ago it failed again and I just went directly to the goal and bought a new breaker - problem solved.

Dual fuels don't use squat for power since it's a gas top. I have a Kitchenaid dual fuel and the oven is something like 15 amps. Since this has happened more that once, I'd almost be willing to bet it's the bus connection to the breaker. If there is space, try moving the breaker to another spot.

 

[sparky 1971]

the heating coil in the oven will never draw anywhere near 50a. probably max 20a. the 50a circuit is for the entire range (all burners) and even then they dont all draw 50a combined.


if that were happening, the burner would shut off as well.

It's a dual fuel. Electric oven with a gas top.

what brand of breakers?

 

[Rc_Guy]

When my 100amp main went bad it was heating up with hardly any draw, left a small fan blowing on it until the next day, bought one on the way home and changed it out when I got home.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I had initially checked the first receptacle and it seemed that the GFCI was not working, as if no power to the receptacle. Mike's post reminded me to double check the GFCI, so I did with a tester. And yes, it had been tripped. Not sure why I did not catch it the first go around, except perhaps that the trip and reset buttons are difficult to fully depress, especially in an unheated garage and 20 deg. Regardless, I am thoroughly embarrassed, and thankful to y'all.

Embarrassed ? Because you over looked the simple and went deep into trouble shooting ? We've all done that ****, overlook the obvious.

Quick story, Neighbor to the fire station was putting in a concrete pad in front of his shop. When of the retired FD guys was the contractor and doing the work. I walked to the back fire escape and stood there watching them pull and pull trying to get the plate compactor started, taking turns, they must have pulled the cord 20 times.

Me, being the smart ***, yells down to them to put gas in it. Philbilly, without missing a beat, looks up at me (**** eating grin and all) yells back, "IT'S GOT GAS !!" My reply, "then turn it on." They stopped, looked at each and at the other side of the plate compactor, reached down and turn it on. First pull, it started right up.

Sorry for the hijack and back on topic.


As far as your situation, electricity can do some or cause some weird ****. During fire investigation, I've seen a aluminum busbar melted in the bottom of a breaker box. We believe a breaker failed, possibly (not sure) if it arc welded open and it actually tripped the breaker outside 2 poles down. The owner opened the box and threw a bucket of water on it.

 

[BrandonV]

23 posts in and no mention of the superiority of fuse boxes?!?

Did I mention I like fuses?

 

[KenC]

a breaker can trip regardless of what the handle does or doesnt do.

what voltage 3Ø did you get?

240 open delta. 120/208/240v. Only once have I mistakenly used the 208, and yes it's marked, but on the cover which was off when I installed my DSL modem. Didn't even notice the orange wire was connected to the slot I was using.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

whoops. yeah that will let the magic smoke out

 

[Meursault74]

Embarrassed ? Because you over looked the simple and went deep into trouble shooting ? We've all done that ****, overlook the obvious.

Quick story, Neighbor to the fire station was putting in a concrete pad in front of his shop. When of the retired FD guys was the contractor and doing the work. I walked to the back fire escape and stood there watching them pull and pull trying to get the plate compactor started, taking turns, they must have pulled the cord 20 times.

Me, being the smart ***, yells down to them to put gas in it. Philbilly, without missing a beat, looks up at me (**** eating grin and all) yells back, "IT'S GOT GAS !!" My reply, "then turn it on." They stopped, looked at each and at the other side of the plate compactor, reached down and turn it on. First pull, it started right up.

Sorry for the hijack and back on topic.


As far as your situation, electricity can do some or cause some weird ****. During fire investigation, I've seen a aluminum busbar melted in the bottom of a breaker box. We believe a breaker failed, possibly (not sure) if it arc welded open and it actually tripped the breaker outside 2 poles down. The owner opened the box and threw a bucket of water on it.

I was working with an electrical engineer. He tells me the the Gieger counter isn't working. I flip the switch to "Bat", and I see it's low. I tell him to put in new batteries (2 D-Cell batteries). He puts in new batteries and then tells me it still doesn't work. I open up the battery hatch and put them in with the correct polarity and all is well. I guess I should have told him to put in new batteries correctly.

I wouldn't have remembered this for putting in the batteries backwards, because I've done it, but I took it one step further to realize the polarity was wrong right away. He wasn't much of a problem solver.

 

[BrandonV]

I was working with an electrical engineer. He tells me the the Gieger counter isn't working. I flip the switch to "Bat", and I see it's low. I tell him to put in new batteries (2 D-Cell batteries). He puts in new batteries and then tells me it still doesn't work. I open up the battery hatch and put them in with the correct polarity and all is well. I guess I should have told him to put in new batteries correctly.

I wouldn't have remembered this for putting in the batteries backwards, because I've done it, but I took it one step further to realize the polarity was wrong right away. He wasn't much of a problem solver.

I don't know how I feel about that guy needing to measure ionizing radiation.

Reminds me of a EE PhD who kept bothering the technical staff to troubleshoot simple circuits on the equipment he was using for his research.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I was working with an electrical engineer. He tells me the the Gieger counter isn't working. I flip the switch to "Bat", and I see it's low. I tell him to put in new batteries (2 D-Cell batteries). He puts in new batteries and then tells me it still doesn't work. I open up the battery hatch and put them in with the correct polarity and all is well. I guess I should have told him to put in new batteries correctly.

I wouldn't have remembered this for putting in the batteries backwards, because I've done it, but I took it one step further to realize the polarity was wrong right away. He wasn't much of a problem solver.

why is an EE using a geiger counter?

 

[BrandonV]

why is an EE using a geiger counter?

If this is the same survey meter I'm thinking of... they put a rabbit and a tortoise on the response speed switch because people couldn't figure it out either.

 

[Norcal]

240 open delta. 120/208/240v. Only once have I mistakenly used the 208, and yes it's marked, but on the cover which was off when I installed my DSL modem. Didn't even notice the orange wire was connected to the slot I was using.

It's 240/120V the 208V high leg is not part of it since the phase to phase voltage is 240V, & 208V is 208/120V.

 

[Meursault74]

why is an EE using a geiger counter?

to measure radiation field.

 

[Meursault74]

If this is the same survey meter I'm thinking of... they put a rabbit and a tortoise on the response speed switch because people couldn't figure it out either.

that one has an f and S switch (fast and slow ) response.

That guy I was talking about wasn't very well suited for the job. I had voiced my opinions early on when he started. Thankfully he's no longer with us at work.

 

[BrandonV]

to measure radiation field.

Radiation hardened electronics testing?

We had a lab for that. Mostly for space electronics.

 

[Meursault74]

Radiation hardened electronics testing?

We had a lab for that. Mostly for space electronics.

No, not really.

I don't want to go into the specifics on an open forum as it's a niche field.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

to measure radiation field.

yeah thats what a geigor counter is for but why would an EE be doing such a measurement?

 

[Meursault74]

yeah thats what a geigor counter is for but why would an EE be doing such a measurement?

too see if something is contaminated before working on it. To see what the radiation field is in an area so that he can decide how fast he want to perform the task or wait 'till it "cools" down.

 

[AA/FC]

As for the original topic of this thread: Yes, breakers can go bad.... or even be defective when they're new.

When I installed my generator interlock device I purchased a brand new Siemens 30 amp two pole breaker from Menards. Once everything was installed I connected my generator to be sure everything was working correctly..... I quickly noticed that I was only getting 120 volts because one leg seemed to be dead. After checking at multiple locations with my Fluke meter I determined the breaker had one "bad" leg. I removed the breaker from the panel and I did a continuity test on both poles..... sure enough, one pole did not have continuity through the breaker. I returned that breaker back to Menards and exchanged it for another new one. Problem solved.

And on a side note: I made sure to explain to the lady working at the return counter that the breaker was defective and to be sure that it did NOT get put back on the shelf, for sale again.

 

[bwringer]

I was working with an electrical engineer. He tells me the the Gieger counter isn't working. I flip the switch to "Bat", and I see it's low. I tell him to put in new batteries (2 D-Cell batteries). He puts in new batteries and then tells me it still doesn't work. I open up the battery hatch and put them in with the correct polarity and all is well. I guess I should have told him to put in new batteries correctly.

I wouldn't have remembered this for putting in the batteries backwards, because I've done it, but I took it one step further to realize the polarity was wrong right away. He wasn't much of a problem solver.

A good friend of mine was an RF engineer. Like, radios, signals, etc. Really high-falutin' stuff with brain-cramping calculus flying everywhere. Not to mention the stuff you're trying to control is invisible...

Anyway, he had a vintage motorcycle with the usual sketchy vintage wiring that was causing issues, and decided to rewire bits and pieces of the wiring harness. Simple plumbing, right?

Wires proliferated, multiplied, and the mess of spaghetti grew and grew until he couldn't get the side covers on any more. The issues with his bike continued and worsened. He had boxes with relays, terminal strips, connectors, etc. everywhere. Each bit of wire had a very complex theoretical reason for being there.

The bike got worse and worse, and finally refused to start at all. I went over to his house to ponder the problem together. I stared at the mass of identical red wires for a while, then, I don't know exactly why, reached out and touched one wire. I suppose something deep in my brain saw something undefinable was wrong.

Anyway, I just touched the wire and it promptly fell out of its connector. He had forgotten to crimp it.

There's a large gap between theory and the real world.



As to the original question, glad you got it diagnosed! But yeah, breakers, GFCIs, receptacles, switches, fixtures, and wire fail or get damaged all the time. I don't think there were any "good old days" where electrical stuff was higher quality; it's always been mostly ****** cheap stuff.

You can get more reliable switches and receptacles for a bit more money (and wire is pretty much wire), but 99% of the breakers, boxes, fixtures, etc. builders use has always been the absolute cheapest trash available. GFCIs are proliferating, and quite a few are complete junk.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

too see if something is contaminated before working on it. To see what the radiation field is in an area so that he can decide how fast he want to perform the task or wait 'till it "cools" down.

sounds like he needs a hot cell