Do I replace aluminum wire to a range?

[reader2580]

My range receptacle has two issues. Someone installed a four wire outlet, but only three wires to the receptacle. The wire is aluminum installed probably when house was built in 1980. Is this something I need to replace before I install a new ceiling in the basement?

It is working fine right now. It will cost less than $30 for the wire to fix it, but it will be a fair amount of time. Most of the time will be working behind the range. The range has both gas and electric and I don't want to disconnect gas to pull it out all the way.

 

[James-W]

For less than $30 and the time it takes to replace it, I would follow the code and do it correctly.

 

[Sokoloff]

Assuming you have a valve right at the range, I'd shutoff the gas, pull the range out, and give yourself clear and easy access to do the electrical job right. I am fairly OCD and would absolutely fix it before finishing the downstairs ceiling.

If I play internet archeologist, I'd wager that the house was originally built with a Nema 10-30 or similar (ungrounded 3 pole) and someone later "upgraded" that to a 4-pole outlet (14-30 or similar) and then either tied the neutral and ground together (code and safety violation) or left the ground unconnected (ditto).

"It's working fine right now" doesn't mean it's safe and proper. There is no safe way to provide all four connections (Line 1, Line 2, Neutral, and safety ground) over 3 wires.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My range receptacle has two issues. Someone installed a four wire outlet, but only three wires to the receptacle. The wire is aluminum installed probably when house was built in 1980. Is this something I need to replace before I install a new ceiling in the basement?

It is working fine right now. It will cost less than $30 for the wire to fix it, but it will be a fair amount of time. Most of the time will be working behind the range. The range has both gas and electric and I don't want to disconnect gas to pull it out all the way.

Your range has both gas and electric?

Wow. Ive never seen that before.

If u switched the outlet to 3-prong 10-50 made sure the stove is setup as 3-wire(bonding strap from chassis to neutral terminal on terminal block) and changing cord to 3-wire obviously, it will be code compliant.

Where does the circuit originate from? Main service panel or subpanel?

Assuming you have a valve right at the range, I'd shutoff the gas, pull the range out, and give yourself clear and easy access to do the electrical job right. I am fairly OCD and would absolutely fix it before finishing the downstairs ceiling.

If I play internet archeologist, I'd wager that the house was originally built with a Nema 10-30 or similar (ungrounded 3 pole) and someone later "upgraded" that to a 4-pole outlet (14-30 or similar) and then either tied the neutral and ground together (code and safety violation) or left the ground unconnected (ditto).

"It's working fine right now" doesn't mean it's safe and proper. There is no safe way to provide all four connections (Line 1, Line 2, Neutral, and safety ground) over 3 wires.

10-30 and 14-30 is for dryers

10-50 and 14-50 is for ranges

A 3-wire connection is just as safe as a 4-wire as long as its installed properly. Many installations have the 3-wire branch circuit terminating in the main service panel so both neutral and ground land on the same neutral bar.

The potentially unsafe part has to do with the stove's chassis/ground being bonded to neutral which is required for 3-wire operation. If the neutral connection to the panel ever failed, then neutral return current can flow from the bonded chassis through someone touching it with one hand and touching say a metal water line or faucet with their other hand.

 

[CNGsaves]

+1 to make the improvements that would calm any and all your worries.

Sounds like nice range if it's hybrid of NG and electric. That's on my "wish" list.

 

[reader2580]

The issue here is someone put a four prong receptacle on a three wire cable. If it was a three prong receptacle it would be fine by code. The issue of only three wires is my main concern more than the aluminum. I'll replace it, but it wasn't really something I planned to spend half a day on. (Rest of house is wired with copper.)

The range is dual fuel so both gas and electric. The house did not have natural gas when built in 1980 so range and heating were all electric. I had natural gas installed from the street when I bought the house and also had a gas furnace installed. The dual fuel range wasn't cheap, but I got a demo unit that helped greatly on the cost.

I also remembered there is no ground on the dryer outlet either. Someone ran a 12 or 14 AWG bare wire about five feet and it isn't hooked to anything. Another one I should replace before doing the ceiling. This one is a lot easier.

 

[reader2580]

The gas valve for range is in basement by furnace for easier access. My concern with the gas would be not having a leak when I reconnect although I think it is just flare fitting with no sealant.

I realized the range didn't have a four wire cable when I was installing a standby generator this summer.

I thought I was done fixing electrical issues in this house. I have rewired about 50% of the house so far with some help from my father. There were hidden junction boxes all over the basement along with live wires just cut off at various spots. Everything has been fixed and everything touched was brought up to 2014 NEC with permits and all.

An addition was added to the house a few years after being built. Some ***** ran a conduit up the side of the house and through attic to a sub panel in the addition. I ripped all that out and ran new cable from main panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The issue here is someone put a four prong receptacle on a three wire cable. If it was a three prong receptacle it would be fine by code. The issue of only three wires is my main concern more than the aluminum. I'll replace it, but it wasn't really something I planned to spend half a day on. (Rest of house is wired with copper.)

The range is dual fuel so both gas and electric. The house did not have natural gas when built in 1980 so range and heating were all electric. I had natural gas installed from the street when I bought the house and also had a gas furnace installed. The dual fuel range wasn't cheap, but I got a demo unit that helped greatly on the cost.

I also remembered there is no ground on the dryer outlet either. Someone ran a 12 or 14 AWG bare wire about five feet and it isn't hooked to anything. Another one I should replace before doing the ceiling. This one is a lot easier.

The grounding is done through the neutral wire on a 3-wire outlet, hence the reason for the bonding ******** the appliance. Again nothing wrong with a 3-wire dryer circuit.

If u replace the wire for the stove circuit, make sure to get 6/3 NM-b with ground. Will also need a 14-50 outlet and 4-wire range cord.

 

[reader2580]

The grounding is done through the neutral wire on a 3-wire outlet, hence the reason for the bonding ******** the appliance. Again nothing wrong with a 3-wire dryer circuit.

If u replace the wire for the stove circuit, make sure to get 6/3 NM-b with ground. Will also need a 14-50 outlet and 4-wire range cord.

The dryer has a four wire receptacle, but the ground is not connected to anything.

The range breaker is 40 amps so 8-3 should be the right gauge unless a range is supposed to be 50 amp. I already have a four wire receptacle and cord. The whole issue here is someone put a four wire receptacle on a three wire cable. (The receptacle was already installed and I assumed done right.)

I was incorrect on the wire pricing and it will cost more like $50.

 

[Wirepuller]

Most of all the high end homes I do are using a dual fuel wolf/Viking/thermador range. Gas and 2 pole 40-60. I run them all using aluminum SER. If it's sized appropriately aluminum is not a problem.


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[Jay H 237]

Just out of curiousity, any reason for not doing a drop ceiling so you can change or modify things in the future?

 

[reader2580]

Drop ceilings are considered out of date. Everyone I talk to says that the house will have more value and be easier to resell with drywall ceilings. I would rather do a drop ceiling, but I am also trying to up the value for a refinance.

The basement is three rooms and a utility room. One large room will be a shop since I don't need all the space and the current garage is not set up to be a shop. (basement has walk out door to driveway so it works good for shop.) I will do a drop ceiling in the shop space because I might add shower to the master bathroom above in the future. (Who builds master bath with just toilet and sink?)

To be clear this is a very low end home even though it has dual fuel range. It is a 1300 square foot home that some would consider a starter home. The GE range cost $999 and is not one of the super wide fancy models. The kitchen still has 1980 laminate counter tops although new cabinets. I put the original counters back in due to lack of time to get new ones.

 

[snapon12]

I'd fix it right that way Murphy doesn't visit just when you finish the new sheet rock.

149 r/c worx's Team Driver

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The dryer has a four wire receptacle, but the ground is not connected to anything.

The range breaker is 40 amps so 8-3 should be the right gauge unless a range is supposed to be 50 amp. I already have a four wire receptacle and cord. The whole issue here is someone put a four wire receptacle on a three wire cable. (The receptacle was already installed and I assumed done right.)

I was incorrect on the wire pricing and it will cost more like $50.

Aww ok i misunderstood.

So u should run new 10/3 w grd NM-b (orange colored if new stock) to dryer outlet

U need to run 6/3 for the range circuit since its a 50a outlet. There arent 40a outlets so sometimes u will see 40a breakers with a 50a outlet as some ranges may call for a 40a breaker. wire needs to be sized for 50a.

 

[James-W]

It is my understanding that around here if you have an existing 3-wire range outlet you are OK. But if you are doing a new installation then it must be a 4-wire circuit. In this case, since it is only going to be a minimal cost, I would just go ahead and replace it with a 4-wire circuit.

 

[reader2580]

Why would the cable need to be 6-3 if the breaker is 40 amp? Even if it is a 50 amp outlet there is no chance of pulling 50 amps unless someone replaces the breaker.

I don't care about the extra cost of 6-3 cable. The problem is 8-3 is already difficult to work with and 6-3 is that much worse.

 

[reader2580]

I finally did this project today. There was no ground at all as they just hooked the original ground up to the neutral on the new receptacle.

I had to remove the old box with my Sawzall so I could get the old wire out and the new one in. I hadn't planned on needing a replacement old work box so I will have to finish it Monday evening as no need for stove right now. (No sense making a 20 mile round trip to Menards in the snow when I drive right by Home Depot on the way home.)

 

[rburke65]

Yep....Sheetrock that entire basement ceiling. This way, 6 months from now when something shits the bed, ya have to start ripping out drywall. Now there's an idea. Why anyone would not install a Tbar ceiling is beyond me.

 

[Infinia]

Wire is sized per the breakers rating not the receptacles on that branch. but if its not yer ca$h go ahead spec more copper.

 

[reader2580]

Yep....Sheetrock that entire basement ceiling. This way, 6 months from now when something shits the bed, ya have to start ripping out drywall. Now there's an idea. Why anyone would not install a Tbar ceiling is beyond me.

I am installing drywall on the ceiling in two of the rooms because everybody I talk to says the value of the house will be higher with drywall ceilings. The shop room will have a drop ceiling and the utility room will have no ceiling.

 

[reader2580]

Wire is sized per the breakers rating not the receptacles on that branch. but if its not yer ca$h go ahead spec more copper.

I went with 8 AWG wire because the breaker is 40 amp. It would have cost me only $10 to $15 more for 6 AWG because I only needed 20 feet.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What is the KW rating on the range?

 

[reader2580]

What is the KW rating on the range?

3.6 KW which looks to me like 15 amps at 240. Manufacturer still calls for 40 amp circuit. Only the oven is electric. Burners are gas.