DoAll bandsaw - needs some work

[Hagatronics]

Hi all

I want a metal vertical bandsaw for hobby/light fabrication use. I have an option to buy a 14" DoAll ML bandsaw. The core of the machine is good condition except:

- the high/low speed has been butchered and it runs only a single speed. I figured a VFD conversation can fix this.
- the blade welder has been removed. How useful are these nowadays anyway? I'll only be using it occasionally so maybe I just get a few extra blades. I don't see myself doing a lot of internal cuts where I need to thread a blade through the workpiece.

Its listed for AUD$1500 which less than half the price of a new Taiwanese option.

Thoughts?

 

[Gotcha640]

Sounds like you know what you're getting in to and it's a fair price where you are. If there's an independent machine tool repair shop you could pay to give it a look, before or after sale, might be worth $100.

 

[APEowner]

Those are good machines. Can the blade be installed without welding? Some bandsaws with welders don't have any way to install the blade without welding it.

 

[The Cobbler]

sounds like a good deal , providing the rest of the machine is work ready. can you replace the hi-low with something else ? like a step pulley or gear reducer?

 

[36truck]

DoAll are good machines. If you can repair it should serve you well. You don't really need the blade welder as new blades come ready to go.

 

[Hagatronics]

I saw it the other day but didn't take in all the details - will have a closer look next week and see.

 

[dr_clyde]

If DoAll saws are rare down under, I would probably snag it and make the repairs. That's a pretty small saw though, so it will be fairly limited on how much you can cut with it. Keep in mind also that parts are available from DoAll, but will cost you a small fortune. They are expensive as hell here in the states, I can't imagine how much they are shipped halfway around the world.

I have a 16" DoAll, and wish I had a bigger one.

Mine has a blade welder, and I've needed it exactly never. Its so cheap to buy blades pre-welded, unless you're doing a lot of ID contour sawing its not worth welding your own. Even then, I find it easier to silver solder blades, you don't need to anneal them.

 

[Hagatronics]

Thanks all. It think it might be a 16" (need to measure for sure).

 

[zkling]

ML should be a 16" machine. If the gear box and all is gone, you are going to have a time and or money pit on your hands. As, if i understand correctly, it is nothing more than a direct drive wood saw. Without a gear box, a VFD alone will not get you there.

Blade welders are handy if you do any closed interior contouring work. Yes you can save money by welding your own blades, but for a home shop it is a slow ROI.

 

[Hagatronics]

I'll take some photos next week and post them up for comments. I need to open the side and see what's in there.

There is a 36" DoAll with a cabinet full of blades and band files, but it's just too big for my needs and my shop.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Never heard of a 14"... but Doall made alot of stuff. I also have a 16" and would not go smaller.

 

[matt_i]

I started down the path of welding my own blades. It works...sort of...but that welded joint has either a half tooth or a 1-1/2 gullet and neither are good. So it tears off or starts tearing more off in the same spot due to the impact and the sudden large chip load. All my joints also eventually broke after some hours of use but never when I had the time to square, weld, anneal and grind the joint again. The blade welder was probably worth its weight in gold when a big internal cutout had to happen and the oxy torch was the only alternative or it was in a material that couldn't be flame cut.

The manufactured blades from big names have a perfect welded joint and perfect annealing of the weld. Having a repeatable process vs. me fiddling around with it eventually wasn't worth the time.

I agree with zkling's comments about the 2-speed gearbox. If that's completely gone its a wood saw at very best, or a fabrication project to get you back to ~100sfm (probably need around a 30:1 reduction) for cutting steels.

But, I am a big fan of DoAll. Their products seem to me to be designed simple and massive and built for everyday all day shop work without a lot of fuss.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Even having the doall cutter/welder doesn't mean there won't be a gap in tooth count at the joint. I have to touch up the ends on a sander to get it perfect.
At first it's a lot of screwing around, but once you get the process down it's easy and quick. I usually batch out a few blades at a time.
Love the welder.. wouldn't be without one regardless of doing internal cuts or not.

 

[Hagatronics]

Spoke to the seller today. He knows there are parts missing on the variable speed system, but doesn't know what. Runs at constant speed only. Here are some photos.
Thoughts?

 

[On-Wheel]

$1350-3000 used on eBay USA from what I seen quickly.NICE UNIT

This guy refurbed a 1939 model.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Off the cuff, it looks like it's mostly there. There is a lever on the left side that selects hi/lo in the gear box (upper left in your pics), and then the Reeve's drive pulley (center in pics) gets you fine speed adjustment via a round handwheel slow/fast.
Your machine looks about same age as mine.. mine has aluminum Reeves pulleys.. yours looks like plastic? Not sure if that's an alternative factory pulley or possibly shop made and that's where they lost speed choice. You need Reeves drive belts if you intend to go with stock system.
Other place they could have lost speed selection is in the gearbox... broken gear or selector fork. the forks are a common failure.. not too crazy to fix. Gears are big $$$. If it's just connecting rods between controls and pulleys/box, that can be cobbled together.. nothing fancy there.

Make sure the wheels are good...critical. Check for broken castings under table.

Fwiw, if my drive ever craps out, I'm going to vfd. The stock drive is ancient technology and not worth much $$$ input imo.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Here are some pics. First showing exterior selectors. Second showing interior.
If you cant adjust the hi/lo lever while gently rotating the wheels/pulleys/belts, you can try move the gearbox shaft in and out by hand (arrow in pic) while slowly moving the belts/pulleys/wheels (not under power obviously). If you can get the box to slide into both positions you may be in luck and only need to connect to the levers and/or adjust.

The lever goes 180 degrees left/rt up one way or the other. Does not go down or around.

 

[matt_i]

Reeves-style drives can get frozen if they sit at one speed for a very long time. Used to happen on conveyors where I worked that were adjusted basically once at installation and then the line speed was set for years at a time.

The sliding part of the sheave needs to slide on its axis. However lubricating the sliding interface is a slippery slope (pun intended) because any leakage of lubricant goes right to work making the belt slip!

Its a good idea to exercise them at some regular interval.

Be very very careful if you work on a Reeves pulley. There are some seriously powerful springs in there! Make sure you understand fully the mechanism and have made special tools (usually threaded rod-based) to controllably release all of the tension slowly.

I put a VFD into our DoAll 20" saw at work. It was a hand-me-down needing a lot of TLC like a new trunnion....the old casting was broken and then....welded somewhere around 90 degrees....i digress... but it had a wonky DC drive that would go unstable at certain loads and start pulsating speeds which is unnerving to the operator and unsafe. Tore out all of the DC stuff and scrapped it, went with a 5hp AC motor, kept the backgear and a fixed sheave that put 60Hz in the middle of the speed range per the selector dial. I found an Allen Bradley 800T var-resistor that gives the speed reference to the drive.

 

[slowtwitch73]

The Reeves on mine has no spring in the pulleys, I believe because the whole pulley/shaft is mounted on what I called 'pulley mount' in pic I posted and it is double.. as one widens, the other contracts.

The Reeves on my Boxford lathe does have a spring in the pulleys however and yes it is strong.

 

[dkmc]

Some bandsaws with welders don't have any way to install the blade without welding it.

Are you talking about some sort of wood cutting bandsaw? I ask because I'm only familiar with metal cutting bandsaws, and I've never heard anything as humorous as a saw that has to have the blade welded together after installing it as the only means to install it.

That price for that small of a Doall seems like it's high. But not familiar with machine prices in your area. Would be more reasonable of course, if the gearbox was working correctly and the welder was with it.

 

[APEowner]

Are you talking about some sort of wood cutting bandsaw? I ask because I'm only familiar with metal cutting bandsaws, and I've never heard anything as humorous as a saw that has to have the blade welded together after installing it as the only means to install it.

That price for that small of a Doall seems like it's high. But not familiar with machine prices in your area. Would be more reasonable of course, if the gearbox was working correctly and the welder was with it.

I don't recall the brand but I've seen a large metal cutting band saw that didn't have a slot in the table. The blade had to be fed through the hole and welded for installation. It had a shear type cutter to separate the blade for removal. It seemed silly to me too.

 

[dkmc]

I don't recall the brand but I've seen a large metal cutting band saw that didn't have a slot in the table. The blade had to be fed through the hole and welded for installation. It had a shear type cutter to separate the blade for removal. It seemed silly to me too.

That is totally bizarre.

 

[Hagatronics]

So I ended up buying this saw. Here is what I know.

- The Revees drive seems to work. I can vary the speed from approx 50 -175 fpm.
- The air pump is disconnected, no belts and no hose. I assume it's toast.
- The high-low speed range selector is not connected to anything. It moves but there are no components connecting it to anywhere. I assume it connects to the transmission somehow.

Any ideas on how to get this high/low range sorted? Looks like some parts are missing. Can I somehow get it into high range manually to test if it even works?

 

[metlmunchr]

The gear box is likely okay if its working in low range. High range is normally just a direct drive thru the box and low range is the only position that involves the gears.

It could have been owned in the past by a metal working shop that just disconnected the linkage to prevent people from shifting the saw into high range and burning up blades.

 

[DocsMachine]

The Revees drive seems to work. I can vary the speed from approx 50 -175 fpm.

-Make sure you lube it, and make sure both belts are the right size and not overly worn. It makes a significant difference.

The air pump is disconnected, no belts and no hose. I assume it's toast.

-Not necessarily. The pumps were high quality and splash-lubricated. It's not that they can't wear out, but don't write it off just yet. because they run all the time the saw is running, lots of people disconnect them just so they're not constantly puffing while trying to saw stuff.

The high-low speed range selector is not connected to anything. It moves buy there are no components connecting it to anywhere. I assume it connects to the transmission somehow.

-There's a steel strap/hoop that goes over that barrel shaped pin. Check to see if it's laying in the bottom of the saw. That sort of thing doesn't tend to fall out on it's own, so as noted above, it may have been deliberately removed to keep it in one range.

Any ideas on how to get this high/low range sorted? Looks like some parts are missing. Can I somehow get it into high range manually to test if it even works?

-Easily. That shaft with the nut on it simply slides straight in and out of the gear casing. You'll likely have to turn the band wheel back and forth by hand, a little, to get the gears to mesh when going into low range, but should just snap right in to get back to high range.


The pin above the nut simply rotates and pushes or pulls on the pin. If you don't have the original hoop, you can fab a replacement quite easily out of flatbar.

Doc.

 

[Hagatronics]

Many thanks Doc. The picture of the strap is invaluable and the 'wiggle' might just be the trick I need. I'll report back.

 

[bsg]

Here's a link to the manual if you don't already have it...………

https://www.doallsaws.com/manuals/ML 3801 to 5418353 Parts Manual.pdf

Kevin

 

[Hagatronics]

Thanks Kevin. This is the parts manual but doesn't show the detail I need.

Here is the link to the user manual for anyone else following this thread.

https://www.i3detroit.org/wiki/File:Maual_ML_V-16_V-26_V-36_V-60.pdf

 

[Hagatronics]

So.... that collar and nut you see on the transmission selector has been made by a previous owner to pull the selector rod out and keep it in high gear. Both high and low gears appear to work ok - at least with no load on it.

Someone has gone to a lot of trouble to lock the transmission in one gear - I'm wondering why?

Even in high range the saw seems slow. Assuming the tachometer reads correctly I'm only getting the lowest 1/3 of the speed range from the Reeves drive.

Next step is to buy a cheap laser tachometer and see how fast things are actually turning and get some data. Will also lube the Reeves drive. Don't know what a new belt looks like so don't know if the current ones are worn.

 

[Kevin54]

Shop around for your bronze blade guides. They are hardened but do wear out by the blade constantly being pushed back into them. And if you are cutting a curve in a part, the edge of the blade will widen the slot of the guide. But we were running metal through it all day long between 6 people. When I was last working and had to order some, they were $125 for two guides.....you'll have a top and bottom guide.

In looking at your pic again, it looks like you may have bearings on your adjustment bar. Correct?

 

[slowtwitch73]

Need to remove gearbox and see whats inside... simple procedure.

 

[matt_i]

Shop around for your bronze blade guides. They are hardened but do wear out by the blade constantly being pushed back into them. And if you are cutting a curve in a part, the edge of the blade will widen the slot of the guide. But we were running metal through it all day long between 6 people. When I was last working and had to order some, they were $125 for two guides.....you'll have a top and bottom guide.

In looking at your pic again, it looks like you may have bearings on your adjustment bar. Correct?

The -V- guides I've worked with on a couple of saws have either been thru-hardened steel, like A2 or a flat carbide pad brazed onto presumably a piece of mild. You need 4 of them and they have a thickness that's variable (changeable) to follow the width of the blade, it has to touch right behind the teeth/gullets. I've never heard of bronze being used, but I know there are some exotic bronzes though.

 

[Hagatronics]

The guide inserts for the smaller blades are in perfect condition. The inserts for the 1/2" blade are scored but figured that I could touch them on a belt sander to clean them up.

I'd like to run a 1" blade but don't have any guides for it. Was going to try and make some but didn't know what material to use. Was defaulting O1 tool steel without any very good reason. Or maybe those Cool Blocks??

 

[Hagatronics]

In looking at your pic again, it looks like you may have bearings on your adjustment bar. Correct?

Yes. It has a thrust bearing at the back of the blade - runs against the face, not the circumference. Bearings appear to be in good condition and spin freely and smoothly.

 

[Doug Arthurs]

I have the same 16" ML saw. Very nice heavy duty platform. Mine was converted to run on 120v. I gutted all kinds of unused transformers and such. Removed the non working air pump. Looks like yours has most of the needed parts to do variable speed. I paid $750 Canadian for mine. Blade welder is not a big deal mine didn't work so I removed it of course I have a part ownership in a business that welds bandsaw blades. I also service all brands of saws so if you need any help give me a shout.

 

[Hagatronics]

So, the plot thickens...

I took apart the gearbox. The gears are in perfect condition, no signs of wear or tooth damage.

I was able to manually shift the dog to select high and low gear.

It has obviously been serviced recently. The bearings are all brand-new Japanese bearings (pretty sure they weren't importing these in 1945 when the saw was built) and the gaskets hand-cut from an Australian gasket manufacturer. The oil was perfectly clear - it looked new.

There was a yoke cable-tied inside the cabinet that allowed me to connect the shift lever to the shift pin. It wasn't original but someone has manufactured it as a replacement. Connecting this to the shift lever and manually jiggling the bandsaw wheels allows me to shift.

However as soon as the saw is under any load the dogs disengage and it pops out of gear.

After much stuffing around a swearing I managed to break it. The plate that shifts the dog ring is pressed onto the shift pin. This broke free. I TIG brazed it back together but it didn't hold.

I TIG brazed it as I didn't know if I could TIG weld the shaft (probably hardened steel) to the dog selector plate which is definitely hardened.

Also it seems I can't remove the output shaft that holds the dog ring by hand - it appears pressed together but there is enough room to TIG it together in situ.

Not sure what the next step is. Maybe I TIG it back in place and install that collar that locks it into high gear very firmly and hope that works under load.

 

[racingtadpole]

Just curious, is this the one that was for sale around Glenn Waverley?

 

[Hagatronics]

Picked it up from Newmac in Bayswater...don't know where they got it from.

 

[rockettgpw]

Machinery Warehouse on Wingfield rd Wingfield (Adelaide) had a couple of Do-all bandsaws over the last few years, can't remember what size they were although do remember one machine having a power feed set up that was two chains along the table joined to a bar across the operators side of the blade and a winch underneath to pull the job into the blade.
It's been two years since I last visited there but its the kind of place with junk coming and going regularly, sadly he seems to scrap the parts machines.

Would love a two speed Do-all if I had the room, second is a Woodfast/Steelfast two speed.
Good luck with the revival of your machine.

 

[cnc-me]

Fwiw, if my drive ever craps out, I'm going to vfd. The stock drive is ancient technology and not worth much $$$ input imo.

I have a 20" Startright that I would do the same as you.
On the general shreave drives are prone to problems, and I like to get rid of them whenever possible.