Documenting my experience with the Langmuir ArcFlat Welding Table

[GeoBruin]

I'm a frequent contributor to this site but despite being more of a fabricator than a mechanic, I have historically posted more in general tool discussion thread. With that, I decided to try and contribute something to this thread for once.

A while back I obtained a piece of blanchard ground, 30" x 36" x 1" steel with 5/8" holes waterjet cut 3" on center. The intention was for this to serve as my welding/layout table in my very small shop. It has rested on top of a cast iron teardown cart I have for over a year now as I have focused on other projects. Now that I have decided to start building a base for it, I realized that I don't have a square/flat enough surface in my shop to serve as a reference. With that, I decided to spring for an "ArcFlat" weld block from Langmuir Systems based on some reading and perusing online. I won't link the product here as I don't want to cause any trouble but it should be easy enough to find based on the search terms I have provided.

The ArcFlat table appealed to me because it will accept the 5/8" fixturing/hold down hardware I already have, it has machined sides in addition to the top, it is small enough to work in my confined shop, and it is relatively inexpensive compared to some of the other options I have seen. If it turns out to be great, I may end up keeping it in addition to the other table I am building. If it does no more than serve as a platform for me to build my other table, I will try to re-sell it or gift it to my dad.

In any case, I wanted to start this thread to document my "journey" in case there are others considering this table as an option. There are some reviews out there on YouTube, but none that I could find on the forum here. Also, I intend to discuss the process of ordering, shipping, receiving, unboxing, etc. in addition to the table itself. I did order the leg kit with it though I suspect I will end up building my own or modifying the legs at some point. I just really need it to function as a table from day 1 rather than being another thing I need to make space for in my shop.

The order was placed yesterday, so the countdown has begun. I don't expect to update this post except when I have something to report so don't hang out on the edge of your seats!

 

[GeoBruin]

Placeholder post for future updates.

 

[Luntz]

I too am interested in the ArcFlat table. I plan on mounting it to an older steel cart and affixing this plasma table my son just finished as his first welding project.
Looking forward to your progress!

 

[Swervyjoe]

I have 2 of these. I bolted them together to make a 3'x4' table. They sent an email advertising a sale on the tables yesterday.

 

[GeoBruin]

I have 2 of these. I bolted them together to make a 3'x4' table. They sent an email advertising a sale on the tables yesterday.

That sounds like just my luck!

I just checked and I haven't received anything similar, and they don't show a sale on their website, so it must be a targeted thing.

Did you use their special epoxy bolt kit or did you just use conventional bolts to combine your tables?

 

[Retroman]

Deleted

 

[Retroman]

I have 2 of these. I bolted them together to make a 3'x4' table. They sent an email advertising a sale on the tables yesterday.

Can you share a code or link?

 

[Swervyjoe]

 

[Swervyjoe]

Did you use their special epoxy bolt kit or did you just use conventional bolts to combine your tables?

Conventional bolts

 

[Luntz]

A little known tip, factory 2nd's (slightly underweight casts) are available for $450 cash......local pick up, a deal.
Check San Diego CL, in "tools for sale" search "cast iron".
I plan on picking one up during my next visit to San Diego.

From the post:
Langmuir Systems has a number of ARCFLAT precision machined cast iron weld blocks available for local pickup. These blocks have been casted slightly under-weight and MAY have thickness deviating from published specifications.

Full information on the ARCFLAT System: https://www.langmuirsystems.com/arcflat

Retail Price: $675
Local Pickup Price : $600
Local Pickup Under-Weight Price: $500 (CASH PRICE: $450)

24" x 36" Modular Cast Iron Weld Fixture Table featuring 5 perpendicular machined flat surfaces and 336 fixture holes. The ARCFLAT cast iron modular fixture table features surfaces machined flat to ±0.0075” and square to 0.1 degrees. Many advantages over tab and slot tables.

 

[GeoBruin]

A little known tip, factory 2nd's (slightly underweight casts) are available for $450 cash......local pick up, a deal.
Check San Diego CL, in "tools for sale" search "cast iron".
I plan on picking one up during my next visit to San Diego.

From the post:
Langmuir Systems has a number of ARCFLAT precision machined cast iron weld blocks available for local pickup. These blocks have been casted slightly under-weight and MAY have thickness deviating from published specifications.

Full information on the ARCFLAT System: https://www.langmuirsystems.com/arcflat

Retail Price: $675
Local Pickup Price : $600
Local Pickup Under-Weight Price: $500 (CASH PRICE: $450)

24" x 36" Modular Cast Iron Weld Fixture Table featuring 5 perpendicular machined flat surfaces and 336 fixture holes. The ARCFLAT cast iron modular fixture table features surfaces machined flat to ±0.0075” and square to 0.1 degrees. Many advantages over tab and slot tables.

Great tip! I may have to consider a local pickup as that saves money in any case, even for a non "underweight" casting.

I'm in LA but my company is in San Diego and I have a trip planned shortly.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

I've never looked into these before, but they seem like a good deal. Too bad they don't offer them in a 3'x4'. My current table (a Certiflat 2'x3') is often just a bit too small. Maybe when I'm in San Diego next I'll pick up one of their blem deals.

 

[GeoBruin]

I've never looked into these before, but they seem like a good deal. Too bad they don't offer them in a 3'x4'. Ky current table (a Certiflat 2'x3') is often just a bit too small. Maybe when I'm in San Diego next I'll pick up one if their blem deals.

You can get two of them plus their bolt kit and voila! 3x4 table.

You would only need a single set of legs as well so you wouldn't quite double the cost (assuming you planned to buy their legs at all).

Their bolt kit apparently helps you maintain flatness across the entire top of the combined finished tables.

 

[Retroman]

Wish I had known about the underweight tables was just in Carlsbad last weekend.

 

[Swervyjoe]

Couple pictures of my setup:

 

[rmack898]

I'm curious about what others consider acceptable tolerances within the realm of "fabricating".

Most of the things I've personally fabricated or have seen fabricated in other shops are fairly large and +/- 1/8" is usually an acceptable tolerance or maybe 1/16" if you're really fussy. My thoughts are that any tolerance less than 1/16"(.0625") is going to require post fabrication machine work.

How flat does a fabrication table need to be?

 

[GeoBruin]

I'm curious about what others consider acceptable tolerances within the realm of "fabricating".

Most of the things I've personally fabricated or have seen fabricated in other shops are fairly large and +/- 1/8" is usually an acceptable tolerance or maybe 1/16" if you're really fussy. My thoughts are that any tolerance less than 1/16"(.0625") is going to require post fabrication machine work.

How flat does a fabrication table need to be?

I don't sell anything I make. I have no contractual obligation to meet any kind of tolerance. So for me, the answer is usually, as good as I can get.

That said, it's not always about absolute error, but sometimes just repeatability. Also, error magnifies itself at every step, and with greater lengths/distances.

Let's say I'm welding up a pair of something (angles, legs, brackets, whatever) A matched set intended to be a mirror of one another. So I jig both up on my table, using the table as a reference. If my table is .125" out across the length of it, once I get my matched set of things done and ready to assemble, I'm now .250" out on the fishined assembly because both parts are out .125" in opposite directions.

As for small errors magnifying themselves at greater lengths/distances, the easiest examples are 90 degree angles. Making a part that's only a couple feet square? A half a degree off is no big deal. Making a 14 foot gate? A half a degree off translates into a huge length difference at the hypotenuse.

And finally, making things which themselves will be references for other things. I started out by saying I wanted to make a welding table. If I didn't keep tight tolerances in making the table, everything made on that table would inherit the error.

Yes, there are ways of overcoming errors with the right planning, tools, measurements, and techniques, but what a time saver it is to start off with a reference surface/surfaces you know are flat/square to start with. And in this case, we're talking about one of the cheapest tables available that provides that. It's not like I'm talking about dropping $5,000 - $10,00 on a table to get that extra "flatness". Of course there are people who do, and they probably feel like it's justified in their circumstances as well.

 

[American Locomotive]

I'm just confused. I guess I don't understand why you bought this table, when you already had a blanchard ground 1" thick piece of steel with the requisite fixturing holes. Seems like it would be prettt easy to build a base for that table, using the table itself resting on something else.

A blanchard ground piece of steel that big is probably flat to within .002" end to end. It's almost certainly way flatter than the new table you bought?

 

[GeoBruin]

I'm just confused. I guess I don't understand why you bought this table, when you already had a blanchard ground 1" thick piece of steel with the requisite fixturing holes. Seems like it would be prettt easy to build a base for that table, using the table itself resting on something else.

A blanchard ground piece of steel that big is probably flat to within .002" end to end. It's almost certainly way flatter than the new table you bought?

Reasons are as follows:

1) Because I wanted to.
2) Because I've been putting off making a base for the other piece for so long, I got frustrated at not having a table I can just use
3) Because I have been interested in these tables since I first saw them and 2 of these may end up being a better solution for me than anything else out there, including the piece of steel I already have, and I wanted to get one to see for my self.
4) Because the piece I have has a slight bow in it (post blanchard grinding) and I have been meaning to try to flame straighten it before building the base (another reason I've put off the base project)
5) Because my dad will likely inherit whichever table I don't keep
6)Because I wanted to.

 

[Craftfab]

Do ball lock bolts work with these tables? I find conflicting information when I search around forums.

 

[Swervyjoe]

I'll double check later, but I dont think the holes on the underside of the table are chamfered. I doubt ball locks would work correctly without a chamfer

 

[GeoBruin]

I'll double check later, but I dont think the holes on the underside of the table are chamfered. I doubt ball locks would work correctly without a chamfer

That's a great question. I know for sure I haven't found any that will work with my 1" thick table. I thought the extra long ones from fireball might work but they're never in stock.

Would there need to be a chamfer for a ball lock bolt to work? I figured if the ball recessed into the pin enough to get in the hole, and then popped out enough to be larger than the hole diameter on the under side, it would work (assuming the right length). Maybe you would need a chamfer for the spring type, but for the kind you tighten by turning, I assumed it wouldn't matter.

 

[Luntz]

Just returned from my pick up at the Langmuir warehouse east of San Diego.
Easy peasy.
I hadn't planned on getting the leg kit, but at $50 (50% off) cash local pick up, I couldn't pass it up. The material alone is worth that much.
Very nice folks there, they loaded it into my car.
Can't wait to unbox it in the morning with my son and start sketching out our plans for a mobile table with a plasma table on the side.
Should be a fun father/son project.
I actually scored a couple other diamonds in the rough on the way back to LA, a 1949 Craftsman 5196 vise in original very good condition, and a really neat doctors rolling stool made by the Pedigo company in Huntington Beach, with the very cool model designation P-51.

 

[GeoBruin]

Nice!

I received mine and I've been taking pictures but haven't had time to post everything just yet. I ended up making some minor modifications to the legs to accomodate my castors so I'll post those pics as well.

 

[Craftfab]

For those of you that recently got a table, any issues with holes not being in tolerance or the underside leg mounting surface not being machined? Most of my searching about these has being talking about those two issues months ago and can't find many posts around web of recent table quality.

 

[GeoBruin]

Yeah, time for an update.



So I received the table almost two weeks to the day from ordering. That makes sense since they say they have a 2 week shipping lead time and I'm pretty close to their San Diego location.



The packaging seemed appropriate with plenty of corner protectors to keep the ding/dents at a minimum. The surface and sides were oiled so there was a thin layer of plastic to prevent the oil from soaking through to the foam/cardboard but some did make its way through. The legs were all bundled together in their own box along with the leveling feet and mounting hardware.



When I got everything unpackaged, I inspected the locations on the bottom of the table that were machined to accomodate the legs and indeed one corner looked different from the others. While the others had obvious tooling marks, one corner seemed to lack the tooling marks but also looked like it had been sprayed with whatever is used to coat the cast iron on the bottom to prevent rust. It still looked "flat" as far as I could tell but the overspray had a rough texture so I pulled out the die grinder and a surface conditioning disc and went to work.



Once the black spray was mostly cleaned off, it was obvious it had not been machined as the pits from the casting were still visable unlike the machined corners. I forgot to take a picture before I cleaned it up with the grinder but you can still see the difference between the machine corner and the other in the pictures.



Knowing I planned to use leveling castors anyway, and ultimately planning on making my own legs, I judged that this wouldn't be a problem and proceeded to assemble the legs. Everything lined up and threaded together easily by hand. I put an eye bolt through one of the holes near the end and lifted the table up on it's side with the hoist to make assembling the legs easier.



I show some photos of the legs below. They're nothing to write home about, as many others have posted before. They appear to have been designed to hold the table up off the ground and not much else. That said, I suspect most intend to build their own legs anyway (which is why they are available separately) so they are likely intentionally no frills. Still, simple things like a decent paint job should be trivial at this scale.



After attaching the legs, I went to put the leveling feet on and while the cheapness of the leveling feet was also apparent, what caught my attention most was the tiny tack welds that held the hex nut on the bottom of the legs. It seems like just a little nudge of the table sideways would be able to break the nuts free from the plate to which they were welded. Anyhow, I proceeded to mount the temporary feet and flip the table over.



I pulled out my digital angle gague which is not a highly precise instrument but it confirmed that the corners and edges were exactly 90 degrees in both dimensions. I also pulled out my aluminum strait edge and feeler gauges to assess the flatness of the top. After sliding the straight edge around in many configuratons I found that the largest "gap" was a low spot in the center. I was able to sneak a .003" feeler gauge under the straight edge but not the .004". The straight edge I used was advertised as having a .002" tolerance so take all this with a grain of salt.



I don't know if I'll ultimately use them for this application but I've wanted to check out the footmaster leveling castors for a long time, so I decided to order a set to see how they work. I was originallu going to order the GDR-60S-BLK but I saw that the GDR-80S-BLK has a slightly larger wheel which I thought might be handy, and they are a little taller so it would put the table closer to the height of my other workbenches, even with the factory legs. The problem I discovered when they arrived, is that the 60 model comes threaded for an M12 x 1.75 stem (which is what the nuts on the table legs are) while the 80 model comes with a 1/2" x 13 thread. This wasn't the end of the world since I was already dubious of the welds on the legs, so it gave me a chance to cut them off and weld on my own 1/2" nuts. This also gave me a chance to test the welds on the existing nuts. It turns out I was able to break off only 1 of them with a socket on a 12" breaker bar. The rest I had to cut the welds with a cut-off wheel before breaking them off.



Anyhow, after welding the new nuts on and attaching the castors, I got the table upright again and it does roll quite smoothly, acknowledging the limitations of the small wheels. It also seems pretty solid with the feet extended ans the ratcheting mechanism works incredibly well.



I tested all my buildpro branded hold-down clamps, locator pins, etc and after sticking them in about half the holes on every surface of the table, I feel comfortable that there is no significant variation in the hole diameters. The clamps and pins all slide in easily. Easier in fact than my other table since the hotels are chamferred.



I searched the entire table for casting voids since the company discloses that can occur, and I found one on top of the table about .125" x .250". It appeared to be filled with some kind of filler (bondo?) prior to machining since it was very flat. I almost didn't find it because it was the same color as the other patina spots on the table. My curiosity overwhelmed me and I started digging at the little void with a pick. I was able to scoop out the filler and expose the entirety of the void. It turned out to be about 3/16" deep at the deepest point. I cleaned it out and filled it back up with some JBWeld Steel Stick, then hit it briefly with a flap wheel after it cured to knock it back down. It won't affect anything for my purposes but this is something to consider if this is your first cast iron table.



All in all, I'm pretty pleased with the block itself for the price I paid. The size is going to be a big plus for me, as I can orient it longitudinally in my shop and it's only 2 feet wide. If I end up picking up a second one, I'll be able to have either a 2' x 6' work surface, or a 3' x 4'.



Ive already got some ideas about different leg/base configurations including some whacky ones (raising/lowering/tilting/rotating etc). All that said, I've found having no crossmembers between the legs allows a lot of things to be nested under the table. I've even considered putting my small horizontal bandsaw on a hydraulic lift stand/cart so I can stick it under the table when not in use.


I really think having the 90 degree turn down with the clamping holes all the way around the edge is going to be valuable. I've thought I could use that several times in the past when I didn't have it on my other table but we'll see what happens in real use.


Happy to answer any other questions not addressed by my little write up.

 

[Craftfab]

Has anyone had a chance to try a ball lock bolt on the table?

 

[GeoBruin]

I haven't yet. I've been waiting to order some fixtures that would use them but I'm also looking at the ones fireball sells with the permanent pegs on the bottom. I'll report back if/when I do.

 

[Reata210]

Picked an Arcflat up. Very pleased, dead nuts flat and all corners are a perfect 90. Hole tolerances are perfect as well. Did pick up the leg kit and installed leveling casters. Made up a few fixture clamps for the first project on it. Definitely a good value for a machined cast iron block.

 

[Reata210]

Picked an Arcflat up. Very pleased, dead nuts flat and all corners are a perfect 90. Hole tolerances are perfect as well. Did pick up the leg kit and installed leveling casters. Made up a few fixture clamps for the first project on it. Definitely a good value for a machined cast iron block.

Meant to attach a few pics

 

[Reata210]

Anyhow, after welding the new nuts on and attaching the castors, I got the table upright again and it does roll quite smoothly, acknowledging the limitations of the small wheels. It also seems pretty solid with the feet extended ans the ratcheting mechanism works incredibly well.

I picked up the leg kit also. The tacks on the nuts like yours pictured were skimpy as well. I fully welded them out before installing leveling casters. Aside from the the lame tacks the legs keep the table rock solid.

 

[GeoBruin]

I picked up the leg kit also. The tacks on the nuts like yours pictured were skimpy as well. I fully welded them out before installing leveling casters. Aside from the the legs keep the table rock solid.

Yeah, after starting to keep my bandsaw on a little hydraulic lift table tucked under the table, I'e held off thinking about welding on crossmembers. It's rigid enough and it's convenient to store things under the table.

 

[Reata210]

Yeah, after starting to keep my bandsaw on a little hydraulic lift table tucked under the table, I'e held off thinking about welding on crossmembers. It's rigid enough and it's convenient to store things under the table.

Yeah, I will keep it open as well. Funny, I too found it was a good place to keep my lift table. Might have to keep the band saw on it and get it off my bench.

 

[Reata210]

For those of you that recently got a table, any issues with holes not being in tolerance or the underside leg mounting surface not being machined? Most of my searching about these has being talking about those two issues months ago and can't find many posts around web of recent table quality.

Both of those areas were perfect on my table purchased in late Aug 2022. I too read about that and was worried I would have to ream the holes.

 

[Retroman]

I keep threatening to drive down and pick one up but keep spending my money on the must have tool of the day.

 

[Retroman]

Just searched CL for the local pickup underweight table nothing came up.
Not sure how many blem tables they have maybe I will give them a call later today.

 

[Baldewin]

You need to dig a little deeper,

Cast Iron Fixture Weld Table - 2'x3', Modular, Precision Machined -...

Langmuir Systems has a number of ARCFLAT precision machined cast iron weld blocks available for local pickup. These blocks have been casted slightly over shipping weight (>150lbs) and cannot be...

sandiego.craigslist.org

 

[GeoBruin]

Just noticed the overweight tables. I wonder if that means they couldn't ship them because they were overweight or if they were just outside the spec. Overweight seems awesome.

 

[Retroman]

OK going down to pick up a table on 10/6 have two give two weeks notice for a day off and that's also when I will have my cash together. Going to get a overweight or underweight table. I figure I can save a minimum of $170 vs having one shipped. $170 buys a few clamps and locator pins.

 

[GeoBruin]

OK going down to pick up a table on 10/6 have two give two weeks notice for a day off and that's also when I will have my cash together. Going to get a overweight or underweight table. I figure I can save a minimum of $170 vs having one shipped. $170 buys a few clamps and locator pins.

Did you check the shipping costs on the website? I figured it would be more than that.