Does a messy shop indicate sloppy workmanship?

[Mister Moose]

I'm having some engine work done, and the repair shop is a new one for me. The shop is well equipped, and has been in business for 30 plus years. A lot of the tool carts are ancient. They do have some impressive machining capability. A lot of the shop is cluttered with all kinds of stuff. Piles in places.

Does this say anything about the finished product?

On one hand if the place looks like a hospital they are spending way too much time being ****, and you're the one paying for it at the hourly rate. Engine repair is by its very nature a dirty business. On the other hand, at some point the sloppiness carries over into your work. Engine innards need to be kept meticulously clean.

How sloppy is too sloppy?

 

[rkevins]

I have seen some dirty shops that did Great work and some hospital clean shops that did crapy work, so it may be better to ask around people that have used them before

 

[kams1973]

Looks like you'll have the answer to your question when they are finished with your engine work.

 

[rslaback]

A well organized shop is a sign of a laziness. If there is **** and tools all over it keeps you mentally sharp and you get plenty of exercise when you try to find stuff.

 

[Cobra5150]

The shop is well equipped, and has been in business for 30 plus years.

This is a good indicator.

I do some pretty decent work and at times it looks as if a bomb went off in the garage. It has even extended into the yard once or twice.

 

[sselander]

my dad's garage is now over 30 years old and he knows exactly where everything is and goes. (funny, it is way more cluttered now than when I was in high school years ago)

It may appear cluttered but he has a system that works well for him.

 

[brownbagg]

if I was in business the shop would be spotless, because that what the customer sees. that why boss make us wash the truck, the customer sees that first.

But my shop looks like a hurricane went through, cant find anything, unfinished work, lost tools. there problem a mouse in there.

get the hint, you want a mouse crapping in your work

 

[cheechi]

Everybody I've worked with or had work done for me was 'this pile that pile' organized, but they did a good thorough job of cleaning when they had downtime. Especially, look for anything that is unsafe such as years of oil stains left uncleaned or other signs of basic safety guidelines being ignored. That's where I draw the 'too sloppy' line.

Times have been tough recently, you get some deceptively good indicators nowadays. I would say if it's one guy or maybe 2-3 and they've all been there for most or all of the 30 years of business, go for it. If the guy bought out a good mechanic and have been there for a few months, keep looking.

 

[phy6]

Everything in moderation, but I would lean towards the place being cleaner. Having all the tools in a pig pile on top of a $4000 tool chest is a sign of being too lazy to put things back where they belong. I would think those people are more likely to cut corners when it comes to actual work.

Leaving things messy day after day also shows a lack of pride and professionalism, just like having a messy kitchen or messy bedroom. Would you go to a doctor or dentist that just had all their tools sitting in a pile from a surgery the day before?

I'm always striving to bring my garage to a cleaner state, in between tasks. It's a constant battle of diligence. Once you've taken the time to put things away, you won't be wasting time looking for it the next time you need it months later.


No one on their deathbed says 'I wish I had dusted more!' But you might say 'I wish I hadn't wasted all that time looking for misplaced tools'

 

[KU_MechE]

To me, a messy shop says no attention to detail.

 

[Falcon67]

Hard to tell - get references. There is a guy here that you can eat off his machines, does excellent work. Had some work done in a place with Top Fuel blocks lined up at the door (tagged with names you'd know) and they didn't do worth a ****. The 302 in the race car was bored and honed in 1993 in a guys greasy garage, cylinders still perfect after all these years and it runs like a scalded dog - lots of rounds, lots of miles, one set of fresh rings and bearings with a light hone to go. Some of the old top shops in DFW were messy as hell, try being like that as a machinst at Reher Morrison or Sunset Racecraft and you'll hit the door quick.

 

[APEowner]

I can't stand working in a messy shop and I like to think that my neat shop is a reflection of my attention to detail but the shop that I have do all my engine machine work is a mess. I couldn't stand to work there but when I double check their machine work it's always well within whatever tolerance I've spec'd out.

 

[BionicSniper]

When I start a project everything is spotless, but the work area gets dirtier and dirtier until the job is finished. Once it is done the area is spotless again.

The only real exception to that is when I am working with stuff that needs to stay clean, stuff like painting and grime sensitive components.

 

[Outlawmws]

I have seen some dirty shops that did Great work and some hospital clean shops that did crapy work, so it may be better to ask around people that have used them before

on THIS^^^^

Some of the worst dumps I've ever been in had the best reps for the finished product. Some showroom shops (often dealer shops) have had the worst. It's not the shop or environment, it's the person turning the wrench.

Having said that It is easier to do quality work when you are not dodging around piles of stuff, but if you can't find what you need when you need it, then yes it is possible to be "too organized" (I've "lost" tools for years in a reorganization of my workshop; this actually happens less these days though.)

 

[JimVonBaden]

A well organized shop is a sign of a laziness. If there is **** and tools all over it keeps you mentally sharp and you get plenty of exercise when you try to find stuff.

Are you serious?

Jim

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

The place described by the OP sounds like my engine builder's shop. He has been building championship winning engines in some of the most competitive series in the country for decades. His engines have run successfully door handle to door handle against engines built by the big boys in Charlotte. Over the years I've been a customer he has earned my unwavering confidence.

Like one of the previous posters said ... references and reputation are more important than the cleanliness (to a point) and orderliness of the shop.

 

[srmofo]

Im assuming we are talking about a machine shop. Are you sure the **** you see in piles is not actually stacked work waiting to be machined. I know the guy I go to sets his stuff down 1 wall in the order it came in. It can look pretty cluttered at times but thats what happens when you have more work than you can keep up with

Also everyone has a different definition of dirty. Personally I would be leery of walking into a auto machine shop that was kept hospital clean. They have too much time to clean and not enough work.....however my machine shop also has a "clean room" where they do assembly and its far back in the corner hidden from view

Its also becoming more popular to keep scrap metal inside these days or it has a way of growing legs. We actually caught someone stealing or metal last week in broad daylight while we were still open.

Take some pics and Ill give you my first impression of the place

One more thing to look for is their measuring equipment. Look at how it is kept. Are they clean, do you see their storage boxes nearby. To me that will say far more than the rest of the shop

 

[boostedgt]

i know of shops that look like a junkyard bomb went off inside and they do top quality work.

 

[JKady]

Well, the only time our shop is a mess, is when we're flat out too busy to clean. And to me, the best indicator of a shop's quality is their volume of work (unless of course you're talking very, very high end resto stuff). If the parking lot is full, and there's a car on every rack, it's for a reason. I mean now that we have a full time clean up guy/lube tech it's better, but there are still days he's under a car or in the parts truck more than pushing a broom.

 

[2JZGTESC300]

I keep my work place clean. Sweep the floor, throw away trash in trash can, recycle scrap metal and such. The automotive jobs I've worked on don't come back a 2nd time. Having a clean shop doesn't mean the people are lazy or their work isn't good.

In times of super busy schedule where 4 cars need transmission rebuilding, I sub-lease it out to one of my great friend who's been in business for 35+ years. When I take the transmission down to him, his shop is huge and pack with all kinds of old tools and equipment. Even with a messy shop where parts are all over everywhere and stacked ontop of each other, the sub-lease job still gets done and done right. Excellent and beyond quality work.

 

[Ryf]

I think the guys who said chase references are 100% right, 30 years in business is a solid start too. the look of any shop can change from day to day, or week to week, but the man makes it work. maybe the guy is one of the best and being that its currently dirt track racing season he's just swamped period. you may go back and its clean because he was in the middle of havoc lol.. I usually look for the important stuff, employees, well lit and equipment looks like they give a dang(doesn't mean clean, more like respected). if I don't see these three things I worry.

employee should be able to look you in the eye, at least in passing. any shop owner can be a total crook, but some of the employees usually have a tell.

 

[Brad54]

If you're dealing with the public... ie, customers paying you to work in there... look at it from their perspective.
They have money.
They want a job done, and done well.
What do you think THEY think when they walk into a shop that has trash and **** and junk and clutter laying everywhere.

What we think about it doesn't matter.
What you think about it doesn't matter.

What strangers coming in and wanting to give you their hard-earned is ALL that matters.
And people will feel much more comfortable giving you their money, thinking they'll get work that doesn't look like it came out of a pig stye.

-Brad

 

[banana.bread]

For me if they have a good clean place for customers to sit and wait then I would say its a good place to go to. Also see what other customers have to say about that place.

 

[darkk]

I use a local machine shop, TLB over in Norwichtown, Ct. A an older guy named Terry owns it, really nice guy, probably started the place before iron was discovered. It looks like the filthiest place in the world, the guy will litterally chew your ear off talking to you. I don't think I've ever seen the floor, his equipment.......looks like dinosaur relics. BUT! He knows his ****, is a little slow getting your stuff back to you because he has so much local racecar engine work piled up, again...BUT! he builds an awesome engine. I would recommend this shop to anyone. I've done 7-8 HP engines myself with him and recommended 12-15 others to his shop. Not one complaint except the time issue. Great things take a little time I guess. But a direct answer to your question...sometimes yes and sometimes no. It's like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get. Ask someone theat has gotten work done there. Ask for a couple references, if they're any good they won't have a problem giving you a few references....

 

[coolreed]

Outlaw is correct, it is the man turning the wrench. However, you do not see alot of clutter at a NASCAR facility, as they are professional and have their work down to a science.

I find I do my best work when I am organised and my shop is clean. Not to say it doesn't get messy around the Lazy J sometimes.

I find it is very important when rebuilding engines that I keep my shop (garage) very clean and very organized. It seems to prevent me from making many mistakes.

I am an Engineer, so I have been brainwashed by my education , profession and my own analism. I try and follow the law of '5S'
Sort
Set in order
Shine
Standardize
Sustain

But I am unhappy in a congested messy work area. And I don't want technicians working on my stuff that are disorganized.

At ease

 

[carhunter]

There's two types of clutter - Dirty-**** and old School Workshop. Dirty **** is the kind you don't want to set foot in - fast food containers everywhere, shop dog fur floating in the air, its full of stuff that's completely unrelated to the primary work the shop does. Its usually associated with a cluttered state of mind and a poor work ethic.

Old School Workshop (OSW) clutter comes from years of doing the job and accumulating the tools, parts and knowledge associated with that work. It may not be the cleanest place but everything has a general place and purpose, and was at one time important - even it if was 30 years ago. The owner and employees are often experienced professionals who "live" their jobs.Their clients are often other businesses, hence they are not focused on impressing the general public.

The obsessively clean but well run shops are usually indicative of a lot of financial backing behind the business venture, and the desire to appeal to a higher end clientele. Cleanliness usually comes when there is the time and labor available to go the extra mile to detail clean and organize.

 

[NUTTSGT]

A well organized shop is a sign of a laziness. If there is **** and tools all over it keeps you mentally sharp and you get plenty of exercise when you try to find stuff.

Are you serious?

Jim

I was thinking the same thing.


It's hard to tell from the looks of the shop what type of work they do. Sometimes there is so much **** stacked around because they are balls to the walls busy. If the guy can go right to a spot and pick up what he needs and knows where everything is, even when it looks like a mess, you'll probably be OK. I'll agree with srmofo too, look at his measuring devices, clean, well cared for or covered with dust and not used.

 

[sr71]

Reputation, reputation , reputation..........only my experience but the best body/paint/engine shops are typically the smaller ones - with a a hands on owner ( perhaps a few employees) who puts his talents to work. Around here these are usually found in the country - often on the same property as the owners home. Hard to keep a shop clean in this type of situation since the owner is doing a little of everything.

Bottom line for me - I don't care what the shop looks like as long as they deliver as promised - reputation is everything.

 

[Tarheelgarage]

For me if they have a good clean place for customers to **** and wait then I would say its a good place to go to. Also see what other customers have to say about that place.

fixed it for ya...

 

[zmotorsports]

Reputation plays a large role. That said, I prefer to keep my work space clean and organized. I simply cannot work in clutter and I have also found that I work faster and more proficient in a clean/organized facility.

I know right where everything is at without having to look for it or clean if before I use it. The machine shop that I use is very clean and organized as well. I have been using them for about 18 years now with fantastic results. They are not hospital clean but they are clean and organized for a machine shop.

Most of the people that bring stuff to me comment on how clean I keep my shop. I don't advertise and get all of my work by word of mouth. I like to ask people who they were referred by and they usually tell me they heard about my quality of work, how meticulous I am and then how clean/organized my shop is. In that order, so cleanliness is not at the top of the list but it is on the list near the top.

Mike.

 

[regguy1]

To me, a messy shop says no attention to detail.

I agree.......It also says "I don't have that much pride in my shop"

 

[csp]

There's two types of clutter - Dirty-**** and old School Workshop.

My thoughts exactly. There's a huge difference between a floor that needs to be cleaned after completing a big job that made a mess and a floor that has an inch and a half of accumulated grease and oil on it.

Piles of customers parts waiting to be worked on differ from cast-off broken parts that should be in a scap bin (or trash dumpster) somewhere on or off-site.

 

[brownbagg]

anybody can build a house but the quality is always in the details, so how you going get quality with crud everywhere.

 

[ms fowler]

Put me on the side of "There is no definite correlation". Person preference aside, the clutter, or lack tells you little about the quality of the work. A clean, organized shop might mean a clean, and organized mechanic, or , it might indicate a shop owner who knows that a clean shop SELLS better, regardless of the quality--he could be using substandard parts, but being very neat about it.

 

[Squankum]

It's not an iron clad rule, but there's probably a strong correlation.

Some geniuses can work that way, but I sure can't. If you're looking for missing tools, you're probably reassembling things with missing parts, too.

People who've worked with me think I'm **** because I label things I take off their car and put them in baggies. Well, I do that with their car; I'm not familiar with it. If it's my personal VW I've been working on again and again for the past 25 years, yeah, I know what the parts are, yawn.

Most **** I've read about, yet actually making a great deal of sense, was a PC on stand next to the engine building station at ANDIAL, who build Porsche racing motors. Torqued the main bearing bolts? Check that of on the big checklist. Every step is on the big computerized checklist. Why? Because the phone rings and there are interruptions in life. And because that ****'s expensive.

 

[Man Cave]

My shop is 99% steel fabrication and welding. Metal dust gets everywhere. I think huge clutter is a not a good idea when you let the public in your shop so I spend about 20 minutes a day sweeping and getting the big chunks picked up. I don't really care if my machinist is messy as long as the work meets the requested tolerences.

 

[Trucky]

Place where I work is pretty messy. No one knows where anything is, except the basic tools. The shop provides precision tools.. and by that, I mean crappy 10$ mics. Tell me how good your Fowler Chicom 0 to 1's are in 5 years. They did however foot the bill for 140$ Tesa calipers.. I've no idea why.

Those mics and those calipers are the only thing you'll see in a consistant place, everything else moves. We do a lot of smaller orders, and by a lot I mean we have work from months ago laying around, so it's rather frantic during the day. I bring my own toolbag full of tools. The supervisor asked me why when they provide everything, and I told him that the tools there ****.

There are a few good guys there. The ones you know that will make it right... then there's the hacks who couldn't turn a piece of stock down within a half an inch. We usually use them for the repetitive stuff that nobody wants to do. But the point is, even though the place is messy as heck, we get the work done. Apparently not well enough (I just started 40-50 days ago), but enough that we don't get chewed out for it every day

 

[kbs2244]

You don't stay open for 30 years without putting out good work.
You are buying an engine, not hiring an interior decorator.

 

[Murphy4570]

You don't stay open for 30 years without putting out good work.
You are buying an engine, not hiring an interior decorator.

Some guys are such **** buttmonkeys that they probably hire one of those too!!!

 

[Laker]

You don't stay open for 30 years without putting out good work.
You are buying an engine, not hiring an interior decorator.

This ^^^^

You may want to keep a pristine shop if the customers see it just to win their business. If they have been in business 30 years and have a sloppy shop, it could indicate they have more business than they need, and they will clean their shop when they find the time and business slows down, which might be never.