Does anyone use ventless heaters for their garage?

[NXGTS]

I was looking at the Northern Tool Winter Edition. In their heater section they have Pro Conn blue flame ventless heaters. The biggest is a 30,000 btu. I was thinking of using a ventless for my 30x48 garage just to keep it above freezing. Then when I work in the shop maybe a 75K Reznor. The reason being that the ventless appear to be much more efficient. I would think it would cost a lot less to run that ventless all winter than it would a reznor that is only 82% efficient. Any thoughts?

 

[stafford]

I've gotta small infrared gas heater that keeps me warm. 19,000 btu. No problems with it, no headaches. operates pretty cheaply

 

[bochnak]

Ventless = moisture that will condense on your nice tools and toys.

 

[cherokee]

I use one as the main source of heat, no propblems here....but I did put in a CO dector just for fun....goes nuts when the cars move in and out.

 

[Andamo]

I had a ventless in my 24 x 36 garage right after I had it built. I went with the ventless because I didn't want a exhaust pipe through the new walls. The heater was a 30K also, and worked well. But, be prepared for lots of moisture since the heating process makes water. Mine was a natural gas model and after 2-3 years, there was a smell associated with the heater. I have a CO monitor and it never went off, but something was causing the smell. I ended up replacing it with a Reznor 60K power vented heater and I love it. It heats up quicker, no moisture and no smell. And now I'm ok with the exhaust though the wall.

 

[56nash]

Ditto all the comments about moisture, if you have any tools with machined tops like a table saw, jointer, etc. You will hate the ventless. Been there done that.

 

[Plump]

I've got the exact heater you're talking about and had it up and running for about a month and a half. It takes a little while to get my 3 car garage heated up but it does get there. While using it one day for a long while, it had a horrible smell that had me seriously worrying about my health and the usefulness of the unit. Reading other reviews and blogs, others have had this problem as well to varying degrees. Mine is hooked up to propane from a very reliable source.

Now, the last few times I've used it, no smell and no problems. Hopefully it won't come back but I'll keep you posted. There is no question about moisture with any gas combustion. My garage if FAR from tight so it's not a problem and you definitely need a fan or two to keep the air moving around anyway. The moisture helps us here in Wisconsin since there is ZERO in the air at this time of year!

 

[Chetter]

Ditto all the comments about moisture, if you have any tools with machined tops like a table saw, jointer, etc. You will hate the ventless. Been there done that.

What he said, I got the forced air Mr Heater 3 years back, no more moisture on tools and cars.

 

[Hit-By-Thunder]

my garage is air tight, just about. I have 2 gaps to be finished with the inside of the garage. HUGE moisture issues. I am actually working in the garage in the cold til the moisture slowly dries out. Never really noticed til I opened the man door and it was like opening the door in a car wash, No Kidding here. I used the infared and the forced air ready heater type. Both are propane LOTS of moisture

Rob/HBT

 

[Chetter]

my garage is air tight, just about. I have 2 gaps to be finished with the inside of the garage. HUGE moisture issues. I am actually working in the garage in the cold til the moisture slowly dries out. Never really noticed til I opened the man door and it was like opening the door in a car wash, No Kidding here. I used the infared and the forced air ready heater type. Both are propane LOTS of moisture

Rob/HBT

Is your forced air ready type a vented type or ventless? I had the moisture issues with the ventless heaters I used, both propane and kerosene but when I got the forced air that has the exhaust vented out of the building, that problem went away. I have some moisture on the overhead door on the exposed metal that hasn't been covered and that is only when it gets down to teens and lower outside, otherwise, that is the only place I see any moisture, everything else stays dry.

 

[787B]

my garage is air tight, just about. I have 2 gaps to be finished with the inside of the garage. HUGE moisture issues.

If you are using a ventless heater in an air-tight garage, you did not read the instructions. And you may wind up dead!

Ventless heaters require a specific amount of ventilation (air openings) in the structure to allow combustion air in and combusted air out. They specify exactly how much total opening in the instructions. Otherwise you are going to have moisture, CO and oxygen problems. Leave those gaps!

I run a 30,000 BTU propane ventless heater in my 900 sq-ft garage and I'm not having any moisture issues. It's a cement block structure that's basically the basement of my 900 sq-ft house. Ceiling is insulated, door is insulated, but there are big enough gaps under the garage door and around the man door that I get enough ventilaton. Never set off the CO detector upstairs in my house.

 

[oldtractors]

Avoid it if you can. I used a ventless one winter just to get me by. Not only do they put out a lot of moisture, I swear that the moisture is more corrosive than just water. It rusted my lathe, mill, etc. Everything was rusted. The next winter I had a radiant tube heater.

 

[cherokee]

I never had a problem with moisture, yes I know that is a problem but around here the humidity and dew points are crazy low so I have never had a problem...now in the summer when the humidity is around 90% or more yup it is a big problem when you turn the AC on....everything in the shop starts to sweat.

In the winter around here I don't even get any water in the compressor traps, not on the tool compressor or for the air brushes....there is just no water in the air for the compressor to squash out.

 

[stingry]

I put the ProCom in the 24x24 attached garage of a house that I was remodeling last winter. Absolutely hated it!!! Condensation would form on the windows untill it ran off or froze on and we have very low humidity here in Western Nebraska. It also smelled bad! The biggest concern is that after running for a couple of days, it would begin to run low on oxygen and begin to produce a yellow flame and eventually shut down.

Absolutely would not recommend one for this application. I do own two self-serve carwashes that have them in the equipment room and they work fine due to the fact that they have plenty of make-up air.


Cheers
Steve

 

[787B]

The biggest concern is that after running for a couple of days, it would begin to run low on oxygen and begin to produce a yellow flame and eventually shut down.

That's a sure sign that you don't have the required amount of ventilation for proper operation. RTFM Might explain why there is so much moisture too. Nowhere for it to go.

 

[jmh21586]

I had one at my last house.

Had to replace the sheetrock from all the moisture.

 

[DirtyWhiteBoy]

I had a ventless unit when I lived in Indy. (24x26) When the space was used as a parking garage with the door opened every day it wasn't too bad. When it stayed closed for several days I had issues. CO detector never went off, but it did rust my table saw, drill press, jointer etc.,etc.

 

[nissan_crawler]

I do, but the house furnace heats the garage whenever it runs, so I only use the ventless heater when I'm out there, just to bring it up to temperature. I would never consider letting one run 24/7.

 

[Jackfre]

VEnt free heaters are intended to be used as "supplemental" heat, meaning 4-6 hrs per day. Where you end up with issues is when they are used as primary (24 hrs per day). Odors are caused either by a dirty burner or ODS pilot assembly or airborne contaminants. Uncork a can of paint in the shop or polyurethane. Any airborne chemical goes thru the burner and usually comes out smelling significantly worse than it went in. Personally, I can tell if there is a VF heater operating anywhere in a building when I'm 5' inside the house. It hits me right in the back of my throat. Most people don't experience that.

Regardless of what type heater you have. CO detectors make sense. Why risk it?

Vent-free heaters are some of the safest units in the industry because they have the ODS (Oxygen depletion sensor) that will shut off the heater if the oxygen drops into the 18% range.

I'm not a particularly big fan of VF preferring direct vent gas fired appliances. Happy Heating!

 

[Byron]

I hope your smell is not aldehydes . Don't forget that c,o detectors have expiration dates .

 

[787B]

Don't forget that c,o detectors have expiration dates .

Any carbon monoxide CO detectors that have been bought in the last 5 or so years have automatic shutdown with warning when they hit their expiration date (typically 7 years). They can't be reset, and they just beep at you until you toss them. The date comes to pass whether they are being used or not after the first time they are operated.

Any bought more than 7 years ago should be replaced as they are expired!

 

[smooth72]

I have a vent-less in a 30x40 insulated garage, 12 foot ceilings. My hot water tank is in a closet in the garage and it has an air vent to the attic. I use my air compressor and blow it out from time to time. Burns blue except when dust is in the garage. Runs off gas. It is economic to run. This is my 10 year with it, no smell. I keep the garage around 72, 24/7 It has a thermostat and it turns off and on when the temps are in low 30s. Since I installed brush seals around both of my dual car garage door the heater keeps up when in single digit temps. I have not had any rust problem. No moisture problem in a humid state. Co2 sensor, no problem. My dad has one and has had the same luck. His does not have the thermostat and that a big pain adjusting up down. Some of the units you can add a fan, mine does not.

 

[KENLUDE97]

I'm pretty sure that i will be using one in my garage 30k btu. My garage will not be heated all the time, just wile im out there. My shop is only 16 x 24 with a 8' ceiling. I will also be insulated R19 in the ceiling and r11 in the walls. This unit comes with 1 fan and you can buy a 2nd accessory fan for the bigger ones also. Generally i will turn on the heater and go back in the house wile the shop warms up.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200332735_200332735

Some of the things that attract me is the cheap initial cost, cheap cost to run. It will be just a little harder to install with running the gas lines... (but not that big of a deal). It will not likely warm the garage as fast as a full "garage heater" with a blower. But for me its all about tradeoffs.

Good luck.

 

[6768rogues]

I would not use a ventless heater. For every gallon of fuel used, you will get almost a gallon of water in the air (condensation, rust, rot, mold). No matter how you look at it, you are breathing the products of combustion (carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, sulphur dioxide, etc.) In NYS, a ventless heater cannot be used for primary heat and must be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's listing. If you study the listings, you will find that you will have a small heater in a large space with a window cracked open.

 

[smooth72]

Everybody keeps on talking about moister problems and rust problems, like I said going on 10 years and I have never had a problem. I have quite a bit of scrap metal and metal stock in my garage and no more than normal rust.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Your issues with moisture will vary widely depending upon how tight your garage is, how much your heater is running per day, and the relative humidity of the ambiant air. It's quite possible that you can get away with one easier in Oklahoma than some moister place.

I've said it a million times, but I'll say it again. Ventless gas heaters have their place, but in my opinion they are never the best solution for garage heat. I used one in my barn for about 3 winters when it was the only thing I had that I could possibly use. It was slightly less offensive than no heat at all. When I built my garage I went hydronic in floor with a tankless boiler. Heaven!

Phil

 

[Chetter]

I too used one for about 3 or 4 winters and yes some days were better than others for moisture, but like was said above, temp, relative humidity and such would dictate how much there would be. I really didn't like breathing the vapors even though most times you could not smell anything and that in its self is a problem, what you cannot smell can make you sick or kill you. My garage is pretty tight and that is why I had to get away from the ventless style.

 

[Kevin54]

I had a ventless propane in my garage for two years and hated it. The work area was 22'x28' and insulated. The heater would heat it up if you ran it on high. I also had the blower on it. On the downside, every time you ran air tools or did some grinding the propane heater would start to burn dirty. And even when they claim that there are no fumes, there are. When you go from fresh air into the garage you could smell it, reason being it is ventless. It has to put out SOME kind of fume. Best thing I did was to get rid of it. Instead of a ventless, look into one or two of the electric oil filled radiators that you can get at any box store or Wally for $30+. Once the oil heats up it radiates the heat for quite a long while. And they are probably cheaper to run than buying propane. My wife has two in her 20'x20' building and one of them on medium will keep it at 60 in there when it is below freezing. When it is below zero she will kick the other one on and it keeps it at a very comfortable 70. She could easily get it up to 80 in there if both were kicked up on high setting

 

[OceanStateTuning]

I have the blue flame 30k unit in my garage I just built right now, can't wait to take it out, perfect temp in my 24x20 on a low setting BUT I have moisture on everything, almost don't want to put my tools in it =/

 

[peter_]

Does anyone have a hydronic heating system in their garage? Any suggestions on how to choose the right size of water to air heat exchanger by knowing just garage square footage?

http://cgi.ebay.com/16x16-Water-Air...ultDomain_0&hash=item3a65610883#ht_1524wt_905

(if link doesn't work, ebay item #250808961155)

 

[Dragster Racer]

Serously. Would you consider venting your furnace into your home? Of course not. Why would you heat anything you would be in with something that had no vent? What are the byproducts of combustion? Do you want those in your shop, where you would be working? Sure it is cheaper. But..... So, chances are that you will have some moisture issues, and you know there will be some carbon monoxide hanging around. I think I would rather take my chances with pvc air lines.

 

[787B]

Why would you heat anything you would be in with something that had no vent?

When used properly, following the instructions, the heated space is vented, just not through a traditional chimney.

What are the byproducts of combustion?

Water vapor and carbon dioxide.

Do you want those in your shop, where you would be working?

They are already in my shop.

Sure it is cheaper. But..... So, chances are that you will have some moisture issues,

Nope, not if properly vented, per instructions.

and you know there will be some carbon monoxide hanging around.

Nope. My functioning CO detector detected nothing. It shows significant CO if I run a car in the garage for more than 20 seconds. (Normally don't do that, btw.)

No orange flame means no other byproducts. If you smoke a cigarette you are going to inhale more toxic combustion byproducts than a properly-configured ventless heater will generate in an entire season. If you use any kind of solvent in your shop, or weld, or paint, you are exposing yourself to far worse toxic fumes than a ventless heater is going to generate. Given those facts, I don't understand why people are so run-for-the-hills scared of ventless heaters.

 

[bcrewcaptain@]

No orange flame means no other byproducts. If you smoke a cigarette you are going to inhale more toxic combustion byproducts than a properly-configured ventless heater will generate in an entire season. If you use any kind of solvent in your shop, or weld, or paint, you are exposing yourself to far worse toxic fumes than a ventless heater is going to generate. Given those facts, I don't understand why people are so run-for-the-hills scared of ventless heaters.

BINGO

especially as sue happy as people are now, if it was an issue, everyone would have "constant headaches" or "dizzy spells as a result"
That being said, I use a 18K BTU ventless in my uninsulated mutipurpose shack. The metal and glass surfaces are constantly covered in moisture when running the ventless heater. The metal has surface rust and the moisture runs down the windows. I accept that, because I take it from in the 20's and crank it up to 70 in there as quick as possible*shrug* it happens, it'll happen with a vented one too. I don't see too many people that say "it will rust everything in sight" mentioning if they keep the area at a constant temp or not.

My 2 car garage has the heat set on 68 with a ventless, I have no issues. It stays that way as soon as the temps start dropping into the 40s. Keep the temp constant, the heater doesn't run nearly as much so you're not dumping the moisture in there.

 

[Vicegrip]

"No orange flame means no other byproducts." This is not true in many shop conditions. Shop air often contains evaporated VOC. Many compounds are converted to more dangerous compounds when they are heated. Clorinated compounds as an example. Ventless heaters and solvents do not get along well. Exposed element or ceramic electric heaters and solvents don't get along ether.

In some conditions and use profiles a ventless heater can warm a space. The conditions in which a ventless heater will work with safety and without excessive moisture is far smaller than with a vented gas heater.

 

[ponchopower]

I have the ProComm ventless heater with thermostat in my shop, and my dad has one in his shop (though his doesn't have the thermostat). They are excellent units, extremely safe, I get zero moisture, and I'm in Pgh where the temperatures vary significantly (to include below zero) and ambient humidity can be high (though not normally during cold weather obviously). I have a CO2 monitor and it has never blinked. Making a comparison of venting a ventless heater into a space and a furnace or fireplace into a space is a totally ridiculous analogy. Do people realize there are such things as ventless gas logs? Which have built in CO2 monitors? And require zero chimney?

During cold weather the heater is on 24x7 as it is underneath bedrooms, and makes a huge difference on keeping the house warm - especially since I use a wood stove to the max in the winter. Between the ventless heater and the wood stove, my furnace doesn't run too often, and the house is around 5400sq ft including the integral garage space.

My tools do not have a speck of rust and I get zero condensation. There are no fumes whatsoever.

 

[Dragster Racer]

I just don't understand the logic. About 3/4 of the folks here who have used them, say they have had moisture problems. Is your workspace properly vented? Guess we will find out. To make sure, you may want to open a door or window a bit. Wait...why are we running the heater? Oh, because it is cold outside. So instead of keeping out the cold air, we are intentionally letting it in now. So we have to run the heater more to stay comfortable. A vent is not all that difficult to run, and if done well, is not all that unattractive. If you really don't want to run a vent, and you want to save some work on the job, and some money......stick an electric heater in there and close the window. I'm not a fan of electric, but I don't work under my car with just the jack supporting it either. There isn't that much difference between running a ventless, and simply venting a hanging heater into the garage.. You wouldn't think of doing that. That would be crazy.
I'm not telling anyone that they are doing wrong if they have an unvented. That is up to you. But for those who are on the fence about it....spend a few more bucks, an do a proper installation of a vented heater. Just my opinion of course. But the op was looking for opinions.

 

[ponchopower]

Oh, ********. Everyone has an opinion here. That includes health and industry professionals as well. Here are a few points to consider from both sides.

1) Ventless gas heaters have been used for decades. They are not new. I'm still trying to find that national outcry due to "safety" since over decades of use, one would think there would be some data behind the hysteria.

2) Ventless gas heaters do not produce a gallon of water per gallon of gas. They can introduce 1 ounce of moisture per 1000BTU on average. That may or may not be significant depending on your particular application. Now, think about something else here. I don't know about the rest of you, but in the winter I'm running a HUMIDIFIER in my home. NOT a dehumidifer. And, I keep a pot of water on my wood stove to add humidity. So, adding that water vapor to pretty dry air is not necessarily a bad thing from where I'm sitting.

3) The whole "Just do it right" thing is simply somebody expressing their own opinion. I personally think nobody should drive a car, so for all of you out there thinking about painting your car yellow or buying a new yellow car, DON'T. Just do it right. There is no factual data to suggest that properly installing a ventless unit is not "doing it right". Sorry.

4) Ventless gas heaters are approximately 99.9% efficient. Vented in real life are maybe 80%. That's a big difference.

5) Most ventless units have O2 depletion sensors. Also they should be used with C02 monitors. If the 02 and C02 sensors say it's OK, you're not getting tons of extra humidity, and no smells to speak of, you are safe. Period. Correct that - if the sensors say it's OK you're safe. The other two variables really don't involve safety.

6) Consider your environment. How many sq/ft? Just how "tight" is the room really? Consider just how much C02 and 02 impact you're having BASED ON THE AMOUNT OF HEAT VS THE VOLUME OF THE NON-OBSTRUCTED AIR. Most likely you'll be surprised that the numbers aren't even measurable.

7) "Power-Vent" or "Direct-Vent" heaters are a better choice if you are having humidity issues for some reason. Or, perhaps if you have a respiratory condition that makes you far more vulnerable to any breathing related issues - just to be extra cautious. Or, perhaps if you live in a more temperate climate where the temps aren't dropping down to what we experience, and don't need quite the power or efficiency. But, if that is the case, I would also expect you to not be using a gas water heater, or a gas range in your home, as neither of them are truly vented either.

I can certainly see that especially in high humidity areas in a smaller volume room with tight seals everywhere, humidity could be a larger factor than what I experience, so YMMV. But I've got NO windows to crack to begin with. I've got a double wide garage door and two 8' wide garage doors - and one door leading to the house. None are opened except if a vehicle needs to come in or out - or somebody needs to walk in or out. Concrete block walls, front half of garage built into the hillside. House on top.

 

[beaker80]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to this board.

On this subject of vent-less heaters I agree with 787B about venting the space.

I'm building a very well sealed, insulated single workshop/garage with a cathedral ceiling for a 4 post lift and I need some ideas on how to vent it while the heater is on. I'm installing a Re-Verbe-ray vent-less heater 60K BTU. It needs 4 scfm / 1000 btu therefore I need 240 scfm of flow. I was thinking of adding 2 duct booster fans (one intake, one exhaust) powered off the thermostat (120 volt) to come on only when heat is needed. Outside there would be some kind of louvers and screens on the inlet/outlet.
Princess Auto here in Canada sells these; http://www.princessauto.com/all-seasons/farm/ventilation/duct-fans/0772871-6-duct-booster-fan . What other options might there be? I don't want to leave a door open and there are no windows to crack open.
Thanks.

 

[Milton Shaw]

I would not do it for the reason why have an open flame where you can have gas build up from cars etc. There are height restrictions for water heaters etc off floor to try to keep flame/sparks out of heaver than air gas fumes. I have seen garages and houses burned down from fume leaks from mowers/tractors etc. Worked for one that a year or two later blew out front, back walls and roof. the side walls to other buildings kept them from being destroyed. Fire inspector said gas fumes from lawnmower got to water heater. (This was a lawn mower repair shop 20-40 mowers in it lots of blow up material)

 

[Valaircustom]

Hello all. I actually signed on to this website so I can post a reply to this issue with having a open flame heater in a garage. I have a ProCom 5 burner natural gas heater in my one and a half car garage. Past couple years around the same time every day I would get that stinky kerosene burn smell and wouldn't know what the hell is going on. Thinking it could be just bad gas through the lines. I came across this website and some of your replies. I got fed up with the smell so I took a chance and I decided to actually try and clean my heater. I shut it down let it cool down, took my pump sprayer with regular water and pumped it with as much pressure as I could and hosed down the burners on the heater. It seems to have worked because I kicked it back on and I'm not getting any kind of a smell like it was giving off before. I'm getting very bright orange burning flames.
One key point is to somehow cover the pilot flame opening, I didn't do that and I had to pull apart the lower-end to clean out the pilot flame tube because it clogged up with some kind of debris.
So if you want to take a chance and see if this method works for you I'd love to get some feedback on it.
Thanks