Does cost REALLY dictate quality?

[ddawg16]

Quality - the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind; the degree of excellence of something.

So based on this metric, the quality of something is relative to similar items.

Lets take a batch of wrenches. Say all of them fail to remove a bolt. Does that mean they all have the same quality? Maybe. We need a metric to measure at what point they fail.

If a SnapOn wrench and HF wrench are used to remove the same bolt and both do it without issue, can we not assume they have the same quality? The SO guys are going to scream NO...but, how can they say the SO is a better wrench than the HF if they both do the same job?

Same thing for the knife.....maybe the expensive one will cut longer without needing to be sharpened?

Women's accessories are a perfect example. Consider a Louis Vuitton handbag vs Kmart special. They both get the job done. But which one will the ladies want? SO vs HF...which one will the guy want?

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

Cost and quality are a linear function until marketing gets involved, then you start paying for brand image instead of product enhancement.

 

[seber]

Although for some reason false Damascus style knifes are being produced by some of the great knife makers this is not a traditional style and is used because it is cool and it sells. It would be nice to are truly folded Damascus knives but I believe the old method is lost. Most are acid etched I believe.
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I think you would have to look very hard to find false damascus. Almost all damascus knives today are acid etched to bring out the pattern. That doesn't mean they aren't folded steel. In fact you can buy true damascus blanks very cheaply. It doesn't take a lot of expertise to fold iron and steel together. As far as quality though, I'll take good quality tool steel blades any time. The Japanes smiths developed damascus because they were unable to make good steel. A Toldedo sword contemporary to the Japanese katana would easily outperform every time.

 

[davethorik]

Same ****, different day here at GJ. Some people are cheap and will buy cheap to save money. Some people are cheap but will spend a little more where it makes sense or will help save time/money in the long run. And some will just spend spend spend.

 

[gtsgarage]

Cost and quality are a linear function until marketing gets involved, then you start paying for brand image instead of product enhancement.

We need a like button! This ^^

 

[ddawg16]

Cost and quality are a linear function until marketing gets involved, then you start paying for brand image instead of product enhancement.

Excluding the marketing part, cost and quality is NOT a linear function. It's about a logarithmic as you can get. An exponential increase in cost will only give you incremental increase in quality.

 

[ddawg16]

Same ****, different day here at GJ. Some people are cheap and will buy cheap to save money. Some people are cheap but will spend a little more where it makes sense or will help save time/money in the long run. And some will just spend spend spend.

But....marketing can be a big factor as Payless shoes proved.....

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/f...nd-palessi-fooled-buyers-in-chic-pop-up-event

Payless, the affordably priced shoe company, revealed an advertising campaign Wednesday that attempted to show the quality of its shoes by fooling fashion-savvy influencers at a fake posh store in Los Angeles.

The company took over a former Armani store and renamed it "Palessi." The fake store held a grand opening and invited social media fashion influencers to walk on a red carpet. Once inside, champagne was served, according to Palessi's Instagram profile.

Unbeknownst to the partygoers, the brightly lit store was stocked with $19.99 pumps and $39.99 boots, AdWeek reported. Some of the guests raved about the shoes and said they'd pay hundreds of dollars for a pair. The top offer was $640, which would be a 1,800 percent markup, the report said.

"They're elegant, sophisticated," one partygoer said.

"And I could tell it was made out of high-quality material," another said in the video that has more than 255,000 views as of Friday.

Palessi sold about $3,000 worth of product in the first few hours of the social experiment, according to AdWeek.

When it was revealed that the shoes were actually Payless shoes, partygoers were shocked.

"Are you serious?! ... Wait, did I just pay too much?" one said.

Actually, in the above example....I think it proves a different point....the price of fashion is all about name and hype and has little to do with quality.

 

[ssdave]

I'd put it this way: High cost does not indicate quality. It just indicates what someone would like you to pay.

Likewise, high cost to manufacture does not indicate quality. It might just indicate that the manufacturer isn't very good at what they do.

What is true though, is that high quality is never cheap. If something is priced at 1/2 or 1/10th the cost of the known "good" stuff, it won't be high quality. No matter how it looks, or how it's hyped, somehow, somewhere, costs had to be cut, and it won't be as good.

What I've found on tools, is for me, I'm investing in long term performance, and the better value is in higher quality tools. As said before, price vs quality is a logarithmic relationship, you might pay double the price for 10% better performance. To me it's worth that sometimes for the assurance that it will work.

To put my preferences into real world examples, I have set my standards for mechanics tools on the base quality I prefer is Proto, I buy Snap-on when I get a substantial discount (10 to 40% of retail for excellent condition is my threshold), and I buy other brands similar quality to Proto when I get it cheap. (think SK, Indestro, Mac, etc used). I have made a choice to avoid most asian import tools, because I don't want to take the time or trial and error process to deduce what's worth it. Too much variance in quality, and philosophically I prefer to buy US stuff anyway.

This may seem harsh, but I've given up on recommendations I read on the internet about what's good in cheaper stuff. What I've found is that peoples needs and expectations are so different that what is excellent to someone recommending it can be absolutely unusable low end garbage to me when I try it out. Not that they were wrong, they just had lower performance needs than I did. The opposite is true also, when someone says that the absolute lowest threshold for a Torx socket is Snap-on gold, that may not matter to someone else that isn't using their torx for high torque applications., HF or VIM or Craftsman may be perfectly acceptable to them.

Unfortunately, for most people what it boils down to is brand and price. Most people find a brand that for the most part performs acceptably, and they buy that if they can afford it. If the price is too high, then they shop for something that falls in the price range they want to pay. Where this doesn't work well is when you get a brand like Craftsman that lowers their quality and farms it out to third world countries for production, so you can't count on consistency.

 

[sberry]

I was looking in a Walmart at can openers. They had 5 or 6. The cheapest was 89 cents and a uber cheap wire thing. The next was 1.97 or 2$, the next 3 and 4 and then 7. The 3 and 4 were not much better than the 89 cent. The 2 and the 7 came from the same die, the 7 had a lettered grip and in a plastic package, the 2 hung bare with no label and plain. You could see a scratch in the die, they came from the same line.

 

[M6erfan]

I'd put it this way: High cost does not indicate quality. It just indicates what someone would like you to pay.

Likewise, high cost to manufacture does not indicate quality. It might just indicate that the manufacturer isn't very good at what they do.

What is true though, is that high quality is never cheap. If something is priced at 1/2 or 1/10th the cost of the known "good" stuff, it won't be high quality. No matter how it looks, or how it's hyped, somehow, somewhere, costs had to be cut, and it won't be as good.

What I've found on tools, is for me, I'm investing in long term performance, and the better value is in higher quality tools. As said before, price vs quality is a logarithmic relationship, you might pay double the price for 10% better performance. To me it's worth that sometimes for the assurance that it will work.

To put my preferences into real world examples, I have set my standards for mechanics tools on the base quality I prefer is Proto, I buy Snap-on when I get a substantial discount (10 to 40% of retail for excellent condition is my threshold), and I buy other brands similar quality to Proto when I get it cheap. (think SK, Indestro, Mac, etc used). I have made a choice to avoid most asian import tools, because I don't want to take the time or trial and error process to deduce what's worth it. Too much variance in quality, and philosophically I prefer to buy US stuff anyway.

This may seem harsh, but I've given up on recommendations I read on the internet about what's good in cheaper stuff. What I've found is that peoples needs and expectations are so different that what is excellent to someone recommending it can be absolutely unusable low end garbage to me when I try it out. Not that they were wrong, they just had lower performance needs than I did. The opposite is true also, when someone says that the absolute lowest threshold for a Torx socket is Snap-on gold, that may not matter to someone else that isn't using their torx for high torque applications., HF or VIM or Craftsman may be perfectly acceptable to them.

Unfortunately, for most people what it boils down to is brand and price. Most people find a brand that for the most part performs acceptably, and they buy that if they can afford it. If the price is too high, then they shop for something that falls in the price range they want to pay. Where this doesn't work well is when you get a brand like Craftsman that lowers their quality and farms it out to third world countries for production, so you can't count on consistency.

Agreed. Well said

 

[bradleychill]

I have always subscribed to the old adage- Buy once, cry once.

 

[Professional Tool User]

Cost does not neccesearily equal quality. It's more about the standard the tool is built to that determines how good it is. Mercedes cars back in the day were built to a standard. These days, they are built to cost garbage.

 

[PFSard]

There are a lot of products and services in this rapidly changing world. If you dig into differing products/services in different socio-economic strata in different countries over differing time periods, I expect that you'll find that the relationship between price (what you pay) and quality is quite varied. The same with cost (what the item costs to produce) and quality.

 

[Iluvbeer]

While we all agree that quality does cost miney due to better materials, manufacturing processes, QA, etc, I think my point was more that there is a tipping edge where cost outweighs gain.

 

[straps57]

I think the exact opposite is true. There is way more cheap garbage sold than expensive quality items. I've never spent close to $60 on a knife and everything I have ever need to cut has in fact been cut.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Excluding the marketing part, cost and quality is NOT a linear function. It's about a logarithmic as you can get. An exponential increase in cost will only give you incremental increase in quality.

Quality on the X, Price on the Y. There are outliers, VIM as an example. Quality is also subjective to a point. More time in the chrome bath or polishing makes for a better finish. Did either make the quality go up?

 

[Negen]

I paid $2500 usd for a dog. Not any better or any worse than a 50$ stray from the pound. But I like the breed and the cost of re-establishment is quiet high when avoiding line breeding and all the health and DNA tests that are involved. Plus every time I spend money is a chance that my wife cannot.

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[2ndGearRubber]

While we all agree that quality does cost miney due to better materials, manufacturing processes, QA, etc, I think my point was more that there is a tipping edge where cost outweighs gain.

Issue being everyone has a different idea of where that point is. People often add only semi-relevant qualifiers, like country of production, to the discussion. I make my living with mine, so I buy what works. I don't care where it falls on that curve, so long as it will pay for itself or make my life easier.

HF sits right next to Snap-on, Proto next to gearwrench, USA Williams to Taiwan Williams.



Problem is, most people believe where they are on the graph is the only position that makes any sense. People think I'm crazy at work for how much I spend on oscilloscope stuff. I think $40 Harley Davidson t-shirts are crazy. That's how it goes.

 

[Wamsutta]

Exposure Exposure Exposure. Threads like this one here are always started my people who have no exposure to high quality. They don't no how to recognize high quality. They wouldn't know what high quality is if it were to hit them in the head like a hammer. They wonder why some products cost more because they have no clue. I've seen it time and time again on the internet.

 

[jd_1138]

Heck $60 for a daily carry knife is about 10 times what the average mouth breather would pay for a pocket knife, so no wonder your daily carry is as good as a $250 one. I like to buy multi-tools for gifts because most people don't even have a basic multi-tool. I usually get the brand ones (Gerber, Gander Mountain, Shrade, etc.) that have pliers, blades, bottle opener, etc.. They are about 15 bucks brand new and can literally save your ***. I keep one in every car.

Or at least allow you to repair something in a pinch. My daily carry knife is a Buck folder with a Buck leather case that my stepdad owned.

 

[Iluvbeer]

Exposure Exposure Exposure. Threads like this one here are always started my people who have no exposure to high quality. They don't no how to recognize high quality. They wouldn't know what high quality is if it were to hit them in the head like a hammer. They wonder why some products cost more because they have no clue. I've seen it time and time again on the internet.

Posts like this are just ignorant.

I started this topic and your statement couldn’t be further from the truth. As a matter of FACT, I married into an extremely wealthy family. There are multiple half million dollar cars, million dollar helicopters, high end tools, and many other luxury things I’m around, in, use, on a regular basis. So I do have plenty of exposure to high end things, I just happen to have made my own opinion that cost doesn’t always mean quality and many times people get caught up by the name and perceived quality behind the name.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Quality - the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind; the degree of excellence of something.

So based on this metric, the quality of something is relative to similar items.

Lets take a batch of wrenches. Say all of them fail to remove a bolt. Does that mean they all have the same quality? Maybe. We need a metric to measure at what point they fail.

If a SnapOn wrench and HF wrench are used to remove the same bolt and both do it without issue, can we not assume they have the same quality? The SO guys are going to scream NO...but, how can they say the SO is a better wrench than the HF if they both do the same job?

Completion of the job is one metric. One wrench of the two is likely stronger, has flank drive open end, smaller working ends, etc. VALUE is a different metric. But the wrenches ability to turn a basic fastener isn't in question. Channel locks can turn a fastener too, yet it isn't a wrench, different tool, different features.

 

[Wamsutta]

Posts like this are just ignorant.

I started this topic and your statement couldn’t be further from the truth. As a matter of FACT, I married into an extremely wealthy family. There are multiple half million dollar cars, million dollar helicopters, high end tools, and many other luxury things I’m around, in, use, on a regular basis. So I do have plenty of exposure to high end things, I just happen to have made my own opinion that cost doesn’t always mean quality and many times people get caught up by the name and perceived quality behind the name.

That statement could apply to things like Louis Vuitton purses, but we're supposed to be talking about tools here.

 

[LOW1]

Imho it's impossible to accurately put quality on a graph. Quality is subjective . It's been that way ever since caveman ork carved a design in his war club while caveman ruf thought that this touch of workmanship was a waste of time. Be an adult, buy
what you want, and respect that others will disagree .

 

[Iluvbeer]

That statement could apply to things like Louis Vuitton purses, but we're supposed to be talking about tools here.

No, that statement very well applies to tools, too.

 

[Aaron_W]

It is up to the user to decide what is value to them. If you just need to get to work everyday a $1500 used but reliable Ford ****** is certainly a better value than a $95,000 Porsche. I don't think anyone will argue that the ****** is the superior piece of engineering.

 

[manwithtools]

A recent example of price vs. quality:

"The machine is going back cause it has mechanical issues, I understand its tough to have a business here now in U.S, I understand that in order to compete with cheaper I.E China built machines corners have to be cut somewhere whether it be materials, workmanship or staffing ect but I had assumed that since I had spent more than twice the price over a China unit Id be getting something that I wouldn't have to **** with an entire first weekend of use."

Not passing judgment on anyone here, but sometimes being able to control your destiny has value. An example is my tractor, I bought it brand new 5 years ago. It's now paid for, it starts every time, it's comfortable to operate, it never needs my attention. I paid a fair share more than a beat to hell used machine, but it's now invaluable to me as it starts and operates every time I need it. I hate to think of selling it due to my impending move, but it's looking that way. I bought what I felt was quality, and it's proved to be true.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

This relates to tools, too, because I know from experience that you can buy a lesser known tool brand that holds up just as well and pay a hell of a lot less for the same tool.

-----same tool or similar looking tool---

I’m not trying to start an argument amongst us all, just attempting to open your mind to the possibility that in today’s world that yesterday’s reputation, and today’s marketing budgets shouldn’t really have a heavy weight on the purchasing decisions you make today. Research for yourself, weigh the data, and make a logical decision without the products NAME in consideration.

------I believe Our minds were open years or decades before You joined this forum-----

A name is useless other than for show.

-----that is Your opinion-------

 

[jd_1138]

Quality on the X, Price on the Y. There are outliers, VIM as an example. Quality is also subjective to a point. More time in the chrome bath or polishing makes for a better finish. Did either make the quality go up?

That exponential equation sums it up, though there is a variable concerning supporting a craftsman (especially if they are local to you). If you have a knife maker in your area, if you pay him more than what you could get a sorta equivalent knife for then you're keeping your dollars local. You're investing in the future (the knife maker's kid may learn the trade). Plus you can spec out the exact knife that you want.

It is a different graph, however. It's not the exponential graph.

 

[zendriver]

That statement could apply to things like Louis Vuitton purses, but we're supposed to be talking about tools here.

Fair enough and since you profess to be in-the-know, perhaps you can help explain, to the neophytes.

I recently purchased a 13pc set of Carlysle 6pt wrenches - finely polished presumably quality steel, in a nice pouch - $100, which I thought was more than enough for imported wrenches, especially since I'm used to HF polished wrenches that work just fine, they just don't come in 6pt.

A similar 13 wrench set, can be purchased from SK, finely polished, likely very good steel, but about $160, which is fair enough, since they are American made.

That said, what justifies charging $500, for a similar 13 pc set from Snap On, which is 5x the price of the Carlyles? 5x better steel, 5x better chroming, even a 5x better pouch, does not really add up and the differences in labor will not be 5x, since they are essentially, mass-produced chunks of steel.

 

[gtsgarage]

Fair enough and since you profess to be in-the-know, perhaps you can help explain, to the neophytes.

I recently purchased a 13pc set of Carlysle 6pt wrenches - finely polished presumably quality steel, in a nice pouch - $100, which I thought was more than enough for imported wrenches, especially since I'm used to HF polished wrenches that work just fine, they just don't come in 6pt.

A similar 13 wrench set, can be purchased from SK, finely polished, likely very good steel, but about $160, which is fair enough, since they are American made.

That said, what justifies charging $500, for a similar 13 pc set from Snap On, which is 5x the price of the Carlyles? 5x better steel, 5x better chroming, even a 5x better pouch, does not really add up and the differences in labor will not be 5x, since they are essentially, mass-produced chunks of steel.

Your not paying for the quality at some point you’re paying for the marketing and brand premium. It’s is no linger about cost of manufacture it’s about managing premium brand and extracting as much revenue as possible.

 

[jd_1138]

Well to be fair, the SO purchase comes with an easy warranty/replacement (on the rare chance they break) and a relationship with a local Snap-On dealer, plus the potential to make payments on the tools. And I guess the SO tools are thinner and easier to get into tighter spots? Also, the resale value is higher.

I don't know. I use SK tools and USA CM.

I think the overarching point is that the law of diminishing returns kicks in at a certain point. SK, Carlysle, Proto, etc. are perfectly great tools. SO carries a large price tag for a little return, but it's worth it to some people.

 

[Hiball]

Fair enough and since you profess to be in-the-know, perhaps you can help explain, to the neophytes.

I recently purchased a 13pc set of Carlysle 6pt wrenches - finely polished presumably quality steel, in a nice pouch - $100, which I thought was more than enough for imported wrenches, especially since I'm used to HF polished wrenches that work just fine, they just don't come in 6pt.

A similar 13 wrench set, can be purchased from SK, finely polished, likely very good steel, but about $160, which is fair enough, since they are American made.

That said, what justifies charging $500, for a similar 13 pc set from Snap On, which is 5x the price of the Carlyles? 5x better steel, 5x better chroming, even a 5x better pouch, does not really add up and the differences in labor will not be 5x, since they are essentially, mass-produced chunks of steel.

Simple.. Because there are consumers willing to spend there money on $500 dollar wrenches in a Free Market.

I’m not saying they are worth $500 to you or Me, but people are obviously still willing to fork over the cash/credit, when that stops... things will change.

 

[zendriver]

So it appears that after a point, it just become a personal choice, to spend more money.

Pretty much like buying a Louis Vuitton purse.

.

 

[zendriver]

Simple.. Because there are consumers willing to spend there money on $500 dollar wrenches in a Free Market.

I’m not saying they are worth $500 to you or Me, but people are obviously still willing to fork over the cash/credit, when that stops... things will change.

No worries, I'm a believer, that people should buy whatever they want, just pointing out quality and prices, are not always necessarily synonymous.

 

[Hiball]

No worries, I'm a believer, that people should buy whatever they want, just pointing out quality and prices, are not always necessarily synonymous.

Yes, Everyone has a different opinion on Value, Whether it was formed from personal experience with a brand, Pricing, Advertising etc.. The value versus quality discussion will never be a one size fits all theme and honestly that's a good thing for consumers as it forces companies to continually adapt or face losing there market share.



With all that said.. No, I don't feel $$$ has a direct correlation to quality in 100% of cases. I personally search for middle ground as I'm not independently wealthy. A good example (IMO) I not buying a rebranded Cdi/PI torque wrench with a Snap on Logo, nor am I grabbing a coupon and walking out with a $20 model. It doesn't mean the $20 TW wont do the job, I just personally place more value with companies that specialize in torque wrenches.

 

[lakelandcat]

Having owned a tool truck I was ask that a lot. The biggest difference is what the tool is made of. Take a set of cheap China made wrenchs a put them up against a set of Snap On. The first thing you would notice is the China made is cast, you can tell by the way the surface looks, its kinda bumpy, the SO wrench is forged. Why is this important? If you are a mechanic you are alway looking to keep things from tearing up. Forged wrenches and sockets will not "spread" thats the main reason people round off the corners of bolts and nuts. A 1/2 can turn into a 9/16 real quick with a cheap tool. But that being said some of the toughest impact sockets were also the cheapest GP, reason being they didnt do Chrome only black so it kept their cost down. Also forged wrenchs are polished not chromed, thats a extra step, and you never have to worry about running a piece of Chrome under your fingernail. Forged Screwdriver fall into this same cat. As long as you know what your looking for yes better cost more. BTW tool trucks cost a little more because 9/10 they are carrying the loan, these guys buy these tools to sell they are not given to them. When Mech run off without paying it puts a real burden on a owner. Thats why Im not in the buisnes anymore. Mid grade wrenches look like they are forged but they are really ground smooth and chromed. Ask a old Mech and they will tell you its a big diff.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

I'd say its more the other way around. One example, customer has an Explorere with failed door latch.
Amazon Junk starts around $35, Ford is $85.
Since it already has failed, and you have to use it ever time you get in the car, we opt for the 'good' one. It comes in a Ford bag, with a little 'taiwan ROC' sticker, and 1/3 the thickness of the original at the previous failure point. Yep, Ford sold us the Amazon **** part for over twice normal retail.
On the other hand, I'd broke a drill bit, and headed to the store for another, but teh gas station is selling a drill bit set for $2...I only need to drill one hole, so I go for it. halfway through that first hole, the bit twists up into a pretzel. Yeah, it actually cost more than $2 to heat treat a set of drill bits properly.

 

[Rabid Badger]

Having owned a tool truck I was ask that a lot. The biggest difference is what the tool is made of. Take a set of cheap China made wrenchs a put them up against a set of Snap On. The first thing you would notice is the China made is cast, you can tell by the way the surface looks, its kinda bumpy, the SO wrench is forged. Why is this important? If you are a mechanic you are alway looking to keep things from tearing up. Forged wrenches and sockets will not "spread" thats the main reason people round off the corners of bolts and nuts. A 1/2 can turn into a 9/16 real quick with a cheap tool. But that being said some of the toughest impact sockets were also the cheapest GP, reason being they didnt do Chrome only black so it kept their cost down. Also forged wrenchs are polished not chromed, thats a extra step, and you never have to worry about running a piece of Chrome under your fingernail. Forged Screwdriver fall into this same cat. As long as you know what your looking for yes better cost more. BTW tool trucks cost a little more because 9/10 they are carrying the loan, these guys buy these tools to sell they are not given to them. When Mech run off without paying it puts a real burden on a owner. Thats why Im not in the buisnes anymore. Mid grade wrenches look like they are forged but they are really ground smooth and chromed. Ask a old Mech and they will tell you its a big diff.

No. I could go into detail, but I'm going to leave it at that:
No.

 

[Citation]

Lakelandcat,
I'm not disputing much of what you said but forgings often have a rough surface finish. Look at a RP Cman wrench or ratchet. Those are definitely forged yet have surface finish not unlike cast. I think I understand what you are saying about polishing but again I'm not sure I agree with the detail. I've got a set of polished Kobalt box end wrenches. As compared to my 20 year old Cman RP combo wrenches the Kobalts seem like the obvious winner. They feel nicer in the hand, they look nicer, the extra length makes them easier when the going is hard and the open end is just a bit lower in profile. But, having used both the Cman wrenches are actually better quality in my book. The Kobalt's mfr seems to have achieved that nice finish by electropolishing the **** out of those wrenches. The net result is the edges of the jaws where the blank was broached are rounded from the factory. The Cman wrenches have less finish work and thus are more square and have better defined jaws. One of the differences I see with Snapon vs others is SO seems to have started from a better blank that had a closer to net finish prior to broaching. Once the jaws were formed the tool needed little cleanup prior to polish and finishing. That level of finish costs more. There seem to be two ways to deal with that cost. One was the direction Sears picked, go with a rougher final finish. The other was what Kobalt picked, accept the rounded edges etc that come when you try to use a fast/cheap polishing process. Incidentally I first noticed this sort of "fast polish" when looking at the differences between the band links in a Rolex vs low cost Rolex looking watch.