does the average person know or care...

[Coach James]

Franz, not sure how you're reading all that into my post. My point is this: If my students make low scores on their state tests I take the heat for it, not them. Even though I taught everything I was supposed to, encouraged them to work hard and make some trace of effort, offered multiple chances for extra help, I'm still the one that is told I'm not doing my job.


The kids that do nothing in class or at home suffer no real consequences for their lack of effort. They don't even have to pass their state exams in order to get credit for the courses, although that is changing soon. When there is talk about how to improve the schools, what is on the list? Spend more money, more training for teachers, and "new" programs. Never is there any mention of students doing the things that will actually improve their performance like study, bring books to class, do homework, or behave.

Some of the classes I teach, I don't allow students to take their books home because they won't bring them back. I know of no other field where the learner has so little responsibility for their own learning. When I worked in retail and construction, if we were taught to do something and didn't learn it, the manager/foreman didn't come down on the guy that taught us, he came down on us for not learnig the job.

A friend of mine demonstrated the double standard in society regarding education. He is a partner in a accounting firm. he also likes to go on about how teachers should be fired when their students do poorly on state exams and how he put his kid in private school because the public schools are all lousy. He explained to me that his firm hires 10 to 12 new accounting grads out of college each year and train them for three months. He said at the end they keep the ones that learned their job and get rid of the ones that don't which results in about half being let go.

I told him that was hypocritical as, based on his comments, his firm should give them remediation and fired the experienced accountants that taught them. His response was priceless. "Huh! I'm not firing them. It's not their fault these people didn't learn..." then he stopped, paused and said "I see what you getting at, but it's different." When I pressed him on how, all I got was "It's just different." Yea, sure it's different.

North Carolina is requiring rising 10th graders to pass end of course tests in biology, algebra 1, civics and economics, and US history to get a diploma. It is almost guaranteed there will be lawsuits from parents and the NAACP in two years when the first of crowd starts being denied diplomas.

The old "In my generation, we could do math, read and write unlike these kids today." is a tired old horse. When I worked in retail, I worked with numerous people in their 50's, 60's and some in their 70's that needed calculators for simple arithmetic, knew little or nothing of what was happening in the world around them and who thought of Wheel of Fortune as a serious mental challenge. While today I have students that can do everything from basic math to derivatives, integrals and approximate base 10 logs in their heads.

And in regards to light bulbs, ask 20 people at the mall over the age of 50 how a light bulb works and see how many correct answers you get. You'll be lucky to get 3 correct answers.

I have no idea what is taught in your states, but here is a link to the 5th grade math curriculum in North Carolina. This is what is taught and what is tested. I defy anyone to show me evidence that 50 years ago, this was normal 5th grade math.

I'll agree that the students coming out of schools today, public and private, are not what they should be, we just have some differences on why.

Chris, I agree with you about home schoolers being well educated. I've seen some exceptions, but not many. Big difference is a simple one. Mom or dad can say "There's no play until the work is done correctly."

http://www.dpi.state.nc.us/curriculum/mathematics/scos/2003/k-8/27grade5

Coach

 

[krusty the clown]

The problem is more like "No Child Gets Swatted on the Behind".

you mean the bil sponsored by john boehner r- oh? the one that passed the house 385-45 and the senate 91-8? it was CLEARLY a bipartisan effort......not a leftist (generally a term used to describe commusist) or liberal agenda

 

[Franz©]

Coach, I just happen to have a copy of the "teacher" contract for my local district, and I'll wager you'd **** if you read it. As I said before, I have been watching the **** grow in the public schools of NY since 72 or 73 with some amusement. The spineless bastards who extended their Draft deferment by becoming "teachers" spearheaded the enstupification of America, and in the time since then we as a population have created a perfect circular vortex sending education down the crapper.

A handfull of years back NY Regents Math 1 final made the network news when only 10% of the students passed. All hell broke loose because less than 10% of the love trophys couldn't attain 56% correct answers, and the local rag obtained the test and published it on line. The wife and I availed ourselves of the opportunity, and both scored well above 90% acheiving that score in under half an hour. The schools allow 3 hours for the test. We both had problems with the same questions, all renomenclature of terms we learned back in the dark ages. About a month later I was in the High School on a job, and since I'm invisible was able to overhear a "teacher" coaching one of the Jocs on how to handle the retest. Frankly, I wanted to slap the **** out of the so called teacher. That damn test didn't touch a single thing the wife and I hadn't learned in 8th grade math, and it's being given to HS Juniors as their only math requirement for graduation.

NY has officially abandoned any real education. Our Education Comissioner has stated publicly that the system needs only deliver a basic education. We have learning labs equipped with state of the art TV links so a student at one end of the state can be taught by a teacher at the other in real time, and they sit colecting dust. One district here just pissed $600,000 away constructing a "state of the art" TV studio because somebody wanted it. It was a duplication of an existing facility, they had no use for it when completed, and they managed to build it without any public awareness. For 2 years it sat locked and empty. Nobody seems to even be able to find any paperwork for who authorized it.

In my District, the Superintendant with a Doctorate of Education in PE, was escorted from the property with news cameras rolling because he couldn't keep his male apendage where it belonged when the female principal he was boffin got tired of him. She got 25 grand a year raise, and became "Principal at large" for developement (NO SHOW JOB) for not suing the District. To make it look like the raise wasn't a payoff, 2 others also got raises. Mr Can't keep it zipped wangled a seperation package that will cost the district 50 grand a year till he & his wife croak. This is business as usual.

One of my buds taught HVAS at our VOTEC. He got fed up with the inability of his students, all HS Juniors & Seniors to read a damn ruler, and the school brought in remedial specialists. 3 weeks of what I consider prescious time pissed down the dumper later, I walked in and eyeballed Miss Niceass yapping about fractions of an inch. She was clueless as the two before her were. In under an hour I taught the class fractions and ruler reading. Miss Niceass thanked me. SOMETHING'S WRONG THERE!

NY schools have taken the attitude they only need to impart a knowledge of self esteam and a basic ability to find the Welfare office. Should the kid actually get a job, the employer is responsible for teaching the employee what he/she needs to know to get the job done. I've interviewed a good number of the basic entry level labor units our schools are producint, and I am saddened. I spent 2 hours with one kid just out of community college sorting out what the hell he was paying student loans for. After that time we established he had spent 2 damn years in college learning to be an entry level assembly line worker. He didn't have a job with me when he left, but he had some idea where to look for one.

The absolute last thing this country needs is more spending on education. If money was the answer in terms of dollars per student spent, Washington DC and Boston would be graduating PHD scientists from their public schools. Hauling kids around on busses has expended trillions of gallons of oil and acheived nothing other than jobs building and driving buses. The kids don't stand a chance because the "parents" are largely ifnorant, and the "parents" are ignorant because they didn't learn jack in NEA run public education.

Now I could do a couple more pages on Charter Schools and how well that has worked, but why bother.

 

[PanelDeland]

I think the "Home Schooled" argument has made at least one point argued by some of us."Parental Involvement" No where is it more evident or important than Home schooling.I once asked a home school parent about the social aspects.Their kids have soccer,baseball,church,music lessons,and do home school fair type stuff open to home schoolers for their social education.That parent also told me he used daily things to help socialize his kids.He mentioned taking them to a market in Mexico and watching and allowing them to bargain for some trinkets.He claimed they may have paid a bit more than they had to but learned the concept of bargaining and barter.Much of home schooling is in practical matters and ways to learn but it requires basic skills such as math,english and some history.I know this particular parent requires his kids to request special permission for activities and the kids know mispelling and grammatical errors are automatic causes for denial.He has been caught a couple times when the kids did their research and could cite sources on grammar and spelling.He is educating himself while educating his kids.
BTW he is not very well to do because his wife is a stay at home mom and teacher for his kids.Both parents have some college but neither has a degree.

 

[jay50]

I think the "Home Schooled" argument has made at least one point argued by some of us."Parental Involvement" No where is it more evident or important than Home schooling.I once asked a home school parent about the social aspects.Their kids have soccer,baseball,church,music lessons,and do home school fair type stuff open to home schoolers for their social education.That parent also told me he used daily things to help socialize his kids.He mentioned taking them to a market in Mexico and watching and allowing them to bargain for some trinkets.He claimed they may have paid a bit more than they had to but learned the concept of bargaining and barter.Much of home schooling is in practical matters and ways to learn but it requires basic skills such as math,english and some history.I know this particular parent requires his kids to request special permission for activities and the kids know mispelling and grammatical errors are automatic causes for denial.He has been caught a couple times when the kids did their research and could cite sources on grammar and spelling.He is educating himself while educating his kids.


BTW he is not very well to do because his wife is a stay at home mom and teacher for his kids.Both parents have some college but neither has a degree.

Socializing that Homeschoolers are missing by not attending public "fool" system:
1. Knifings
2. Gun play from other students
3. ****/mugging/assault
4. Theft of personal property
5. Molesting by teachers

And many more

 

[eschoendorff]

Socializing that Homeschoolers are missing by not attending public "fool" system:
1. Knifings
2. Gun play from other students
3. ****/mugging/assault
4. Theft of personal property
5. Molesting by teachers

And many more

You, sir, are a certified genius.

 

[Coach James]

Panel, several of my friends home school. Some have college degrees and some do not but all of their kids are getting a fine education. The biggest difference is that when it is the parent and one or two children, the parent can make sure there is no foolishnes and no wasted time.

Speaking of wasted money, a school system near here recently spent thousands of dollars buying software to generate tests aligned with the state course of study, which teachers could already do. No teachers asked for this software or want to use it as it is cumbersome and pointless but teachers were never asked. Someone higher up decided to spend the money on this white elephant then mandate that the teachers in the district use it.

Franz, our school system also has way too many "positions" and not enough jobs. Most are related to remediation of low performing students and all involve a lot of wasted money. If those students had not been passed on in the first place, all this remediation would not be necessary.

My wife taught 4th grade for four years before saying enough. Among her joys her final year she had two parents show up at her classroom door before 10am drunk, one of her students had to be taken from the room in handcuffs after refusing her instructions to leave the room, then refusing the principal, then telling the deputy that he didn't have to do what he said either and then throwing a chair at him, and being told she would have to ride a bus because the kids were throwing rocks out the bus windows at passing cars.


The final straw for her was when three students of her students stole some of her things from out of her desk while she was supervising kids outside. All three got a "stern talking to" from the principal. That'll teach 'em to steal. At the end of her third year, she recommended that 3 or her 25 students he held back. She almost lost her job over that as she was told that if 3 students were not performing at grade level, she was the true failure for "..not meeting their needs.".

She was then told that in order to retain a student, a meeting must be held that included the principal, asst. principal, guidance counselor, social worker, parent or guardian and the kid. Ultimately it was left up to the parent to decide if their child would be retained.

Franz, I frequently use the Regents exams to make tests and quizzes for my students. The North Carolina end of course tests are almost identical to the Regents exams. The old exams are available for free on line back to 1955 or '56.

A person's failure to learn is not the fault of the NEA. The NEA is useless and does more harm than good plus most teachers do not even belong or agree with their positions. They lobby and push for things, but do you really think that if parents wanted schools to be different, they would not be?

School are run by politicians and they will respond to what will get them the most votes. If droves of parents said they wanted concrete standards and an end to social promotions it would happen. Many parents do care enough to look at what their kids are learning but too many want to send their kid to school and not be bothered with them for 8 hours then blame the teacher because Jr sleeps in class, does no homework, doesn't study, is disruptive, etc. That's not the fault of the NEA. When I have 4 parents show up at open house or parent teacher conferences, that's not the NEA's fault either. Plus in many states, including mine, the NEA is almost nonexistant.

As to contracts, ours are rather vague. They state the number of days a year we will work, that we will abide by state law and local board policy, lists some of our duties one of which is "Any other duties as required by the principal." which is a pretty open door. The last contract I signed was only one page.

Honestly, if someone cannot read a ruler by high school, that is not a failure of the school, that is a failure of the person. And why couldn't I ever have a teacher like "Miss Niceass"?!

Promoting a problem away is not uncommon. A great example: Ten years ago, a review board found the director of our VA hospital guilty of ****** harassment against two female employees after they said no to his advances. His punishment was a two step increase on the GS scale and a transfer to the VA hospital in Hawaii!

I had a teacher summarize perfectly what getting an education means. He said "James, Getting an education means being willing to do a lot of hard work. Those that are willing to work hard will get a good education. Those that aren't, won't get a good education." He was exactly right.

And the Redskins beat the COWBOYS!!!!!

Coach

 

[Coach James]

Where is your kid more likely to be molested..school or home? I'll give you one guess and it's not school. Kids are way more likely to be molested by a family member or family friend than by a teacher. St. Charles Journal/Iowa County Attorney's Association reported that ~90% of molestations are done by family members or friends of the family. Evan allowing for some inflation, your kids have far more to fear from being at home than from being at school.

Coach

 

[Franz©]

Coach, you are indeed living in a different world than I do up here in Neuevo Hillareah.
Local School Boards in NY have been neutered leaving only power to appoint a Superintendant, Power to approve a Contract, and power to piss away fortunes on buildings. Beyond that, the Superintendant is a dictator without any restraint.

Probably 90% of NY "teachers" belong to NEA or another Union, and the contract I have sitting here is 56 pages of 10 pt type. It took 3 years of serious negotiation to get a clause in there mandating "NO teacher may wear a see thru blouse or shirt during the course of their daily employment on school grounds". The Superintendant who couldn't keep it zipped was conducting that behavior both on school property and in the Athletic Director's party crib. The female half is definitely something I would have hit on myself, but LN only allows me to look.
Miss Niceass, we have at least 50 of them working in the District. They definitely constitute a distraction to education, and the Girl's basketball Coach is wandering around the building in a pair of shorts that make ya want to bite her in the *** and let her drag ya to death.

We do have some magnificent acomplishments in the last 10 years though. We have 9 entrances added to buildings that remind me of Bancock whorehouse entrances, 5 water features for soothing the students as they arrive for the day, although 4 are in nonstudent areas. We also have 5 bronz plaques proclaiming exactly who acheived the last 60 million expendature on buildings, each plaque cost about $7000-. Security, we have the illusion of security that would make the gray walls of Attica blush with envy. Of course most of it is pure illusion, but the Contractor made out well.

We also have a brand new hotdog & nacho stand next to the bleachers beside the all season track nobody can figure out how to remove the snow from without wrecking the surface, that surrounds the football field. Tiny little problem with the stand though, the archetect forgot to include a hood and fire supression system, so they have to use a portable grill behind the stand and walk the weiners in. Frenchfrys are completely out of the question since the oil fire.

We also have tremendous improvements in the area of energy conservation. Over 100 lighted trees and the heated Staircase to Stupidity help out a lot with that. How about a sunken dining room in the middle of the main dining room for the elite students group. No Coach, those arent the NHS members, they are the Jocs.

The feature we are proudest of is our new olympic size Acquatic Wing. We proudly have the only pool in the state with FIRE SPRINKLERS above the pool in a concrete building with stainless steel bleachers. You never know when those millions of gallons of deadley Dihydrogen Monoxide are going to burst into flame. We don't have any sprinklers in any other part of the 6 buildings but you're safe from fire in the pool.

Unfortunately the self igniting tranquility garden for Kindergarten is 3 miles from the pool, so the men in Nomex have to come and put wet stuff on the red stuff when somebody screws up and turns the lights on in the tranquility garden.

We also have hundreds of other points of pride in our schools.
Our marching band has gone to some damn parade in Florida, and they now have a 8 foot square aluminum platform that stands 10 feet high for the band director to stand on. Fortunately it's aluminum so nobody from the band has to strain themself pushing it.

We spend between 3 and 5 times the dollars per student on Jocs we spend on academic students, and we have rebuilt the Football locker room 5 times in 10 years. Them football boys need to vent you know, so it's perfectly normal for them to rip apart the lockers after they prove how well they play football.

We've also gone to a stronger grade of drywall and instead of punching holes in the walls pisspots now break their hands.

We even have a $90,000- signin front of the high school you can only read driving westbound because the damn sign is 90° off proper orientation. We're proud of our schools!

 

[strizzy]

Hehe I graduated from this district Franz is ranting about... I considered most of my time, wasted in HS...