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Does the United States need an Industrial Base?

Merkava_4

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The same question goes out to you guys in Australia and the UK, does your country need an industrial base? Does your country need to manufacture anything within the confines of your geographic boarders, or could everything be imported? If the Chinese and the Taiwanese are willing and able to produce all of the world's goods at a fraction of the final cost to the consumer, why does your country need one single factory?

PS. I would've posted this thread in the Free Parking forum, but somebody took the [Start A New Thread] button away. :wtf:
 
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tdkkart

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Yes, every country shoudl have an industrial base. What happesn to us when we piss off China or Tiawan, where we gonna get our stuff??
I said years ago, it won't be long before the only "industry" in this country will be holding companies, companies that own brand names for products manufactued elsewhere. Some day it'll come back to bite us in the ***.

My whole Free Parking category went away. Not sure why, yes probably it was getting a bit too political, but you can say the same for this category, it's being overrun with Snap-On posts but that doesn't matter.
 

SEHRAA

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HA, yeah well I'm from Australia, and i agree, what happens when we piss em off, we're so screwed then, besides i dont want the cars i like being made in japan or china (maybe china, but not japan), cant say im the biggest fan of japanese cars or industries.

but yeah, every country should have its own industrial base.

just in case. :)
 

elect

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no industry and no agriculture = no country,we are already showing the effects of a barely there industrial situation.We probably can't survive much more loss.China has more industry just for defense then America has left.
 

paramudduck

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Quote:
Mining equipment maker Joy Global Inc. emphasized Tuesday the importance of its China business, including mainland factories capable of building the same machines now made in Milwaukee.

China has more than cheap labor, Michael Sutherlin, Joy Global's CEO, said at an investors conference sponsored by Robert W. Baird & Co.

It also has new factories with the latest, most sophisticated assembly lines.

"We have built factories in China that haven't relied on cheap labor. We use robotic welding and other technology that's world-class or better than we use in some of our other operations around the world," Sutherlin said.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/34277624.html

I started a thread on the Snap on part of this article but a lot of the article could be applied to this thread.
 

Frank Elson

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In the Uk we have hardly any manufacturers left. It's all service industries these days with people in suits sitting at machines.
So the economic mess made a pile out of them.

yes we need to be able to make things for ourselves, not just in defence, but when the fuel does start to run out, one of the first things to suffer will be those huge ship transporters that carry all that stuff.

Self sufficiency isn't just a handful of kooks with a kitchen garden.
 

DiStOrTiOn

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It is absolutely necessary to maintain a large manufacturing base at home. When you start shipping it off to other countries, and go with a "service based economy" look what happens. It's got to be the absolute worst way to run an economy the world has ever seen. Bring the manufacturing back!

P.S. Why would a toy company build it's most sophisticated factory elsewhere, and then claim that because of that factory they have to move production?
 

Brad54

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It is absolutely necessary to maintain a large manufacturing base at home. When you start shipping it off to other countries, and go with a "service based economy" look what happens. It's got to be the absolute worst way to run an economy the world has ever seen. Bring the manufacturing back!

P.S. Why would a toy company build it's most sophisticated factory elsewhere, and then claim that because of that factory they have to move production?

I'm guessing China doesn't have the environmental studies required before building, the high payroll taxes, the high corporate taxes, the high cost to ship things in to the build site, etc. etc. etc.

-Brad
 

paramudduck

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The company name fools you don't it?

Products

Joy Mining Machinery designs and manufactures equipment in four categories for low, mid and high seam applications for both room and pillar and longwall mines:

* Continuous Miners
* Haulage Products
* Bolting Systems
* Longwall Systems (Shearers, Armored Face Conveyors and Roof Supports)

http://www.joyglobal.com/joymining/

And just think the equipment capable of building this stuff is easily adapted to Merkava's tanks. As was shown in WWII.
 

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PAToyota

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The simple thing is that China is cheap now. But what happens when they no longer have any competition? Then they can charge whatever they like.

It's like when Wal-Mart comes into a town. Low prices and sales to drive everyone else out of business. Then the prices level out again because they are the only name in town.
 

StanBo

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I would think they are also a blank slate. They are just starting so it is easier to just build new.

Wouldn't it be easier then closing and building or retrofitting?

It is a shame when I consider where to aim my children when they look for careers.
 

speed bump

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Do we need one? I think we do

Do we deserve to have one? no way in hell. We have spent the 30+ years making it harder and harder to manufacture stuff in this country.
 

SteveV

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Yes, we need a healthy industrial base, and the best way to do that is make the United States a more pro-business country where companies want to do business.

As an example, the U.S. pays the second highest corporate taxes in the world. If you were a company that could go anywhere in the world, how likely are you to go to a country with those sort of tax rates? Then take in consideration the litigious nature of our country. Manufacturers are constantly getting sued, both by workers and consumers. The list of negatives for doing business here goes on and on, it's not just because of "cheap labor". You really put a target on your back if you're a successful company in this country.

Contrast that to many developing countries, like China, where they roll out the red carpet for successful companies that open up factories and businesses over there.

At the end of the day, most American businesses would prefer to manufacture in the United States, but they also don't want to close their doors. You're not going to build the industrial base up by "forcing" companies to start manufacturing here. The company will just shut down the entire operation if it's no longer profitable.

You can't expect a company to manufacture goods in the U.S. simply because it's the right thing to do, or because it's patriotic. They're not opening up a charity. There has to be the incentive to make money and become profitable. I know that sounds greedy, but that's how our capitalist system works.
 
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jacob_coulter

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Yes, we need a healthy industrial base, and the best way to do that is make the United States a more pro-business country where companies want to do business.

As an example, the U.S. pays the second highest corporate taxes in the world. If you were a company that could go anywhere in the world, how likely are you to go to a country with those sort of tax rates? Then take in consideration the litigious nature of our country. Manufacturers are constantly getting sued, both by workers and consumers. The list of negatives for doing business here goes on and on, it's not just because of "cheap labor". You really put a target on your back if you're a successful company in this country.

Contrast that to many developing countries, like China, where they roll out the red carpet for successful companies that open up factories and businesses over there.

At the end of the day, most American businesses would prefer to manufacture in the United States, but they also don't want to close their doors. You're not going to build the industrial base up by "forcing" companies to start manufacturing here. The company will just shut down the entire operation if it's no longer profitable.

You can't expect a company to manufacture goods in the U.S. simply because it's the right thing to do, or because it's patriotic. They're not opening up a charity. There has to be the incentive to make money and become profitable. I know that sounds greedy, but that's how our capitalist system works.

I completely agree. Do you want to see a good example of what happens when an American manufacturer tries to be all things to all people? You get companies like General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler that have their hand out for taxpayer money because they're completely broke. And it's not because of cheaper foreign labor. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Mercedes, BMW all have manufacturing plants in the U.S. where workers are paid quite well.

The Big 3's business models just aren't sustainable. Having factory workers paid six-figure salaries, lavish pensions, 100% free health care, etc. Individuals with MBA's don't make this kind of money or benefits. Americans need to learn they're aren't entitled to jobs like this simply because they're Americans.

This ethic of entitlement is what's killing this country. People think they deserve all these things, and start screaming at the government when it's not given to them.
 

Lyaec350

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I completely agree. Do you want to see a good example of what happens when an American manufacturer tries to be all things to all people? You get companies like General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler that have their hand out for taxpayer money because they're completely broke. And it's not because of cheaper foreign labor. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Mercedes, BMW all have manufacturing plants in the U.S. where workers are paid quite well.

The Big 3's business models just aren't sustainable. Having factory workers paid six-figure salaries, lavish pensions, 100% free health care, etc. Individuals with MBA's don't make this kind of money or benefits. Americans need to learn they're aren't entitled to jobs like this simply because they're Americans.

This ethic of entitlement is what's killing this country. People think they deserve all these things, and start screaming at the government when it's not given to them.


I couldn't agree more. Working on the assembly line and slamming a 6-pack at lunch while cranking out substandard work resulting in piece of **** cars in the 80s and 90s is NOT worthy of $100k/yr + full benefits to pay for the liver transplant you'll need cause you drank so much. I think many Americans are sick of getting hosed by the Big 3 for the past 30 years that even though the cars now are (supposedly) more reliable and have better fit and finish, they will continue to purchase Honda and Toyota vehicles over GM/Ford/ChryCo. You can't screw customers for 30 years and then expect them to bail you out.
 
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rsanter

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frankly we could compete with china
I used to be an engineer for a plastics company
when sending things out for quote we always preferred dealing with companies that were stateside.
why?
because we could inventory less material as we could get them to built it and ship it quickly if we needed it. in china it would take 3 months to get it to us
if the material was defective we could get replacement in a hurry and easily travel there to work together if thats what it took to get things right.

there were a couple of companies in the LA california area that were actually price competitive with china if you look at it on a per piece DELIVERED basis.
how did they do it?
they were both using newer injecection molding machines and they were both automated so there was minimal handeling of the parts

actually they were very slightly higher in cost but you can bet I want with them.
price was good and the quality was great

we can compete in manufacturing, we have to set out minds to do it.
how?
go to the low rent district. make stuff in the states where the land value is low and the wages are low.
factory workers do not need to make $15/hr in an area where houses are $50K

also the goverment should offer low intrest loans on equipment that is used for manufacturing stuff here

bob
 

Bolster

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Yes, we need a healthy industrial base, and the best way to do that is make the United States a more pro-business country where companies want to do business.

As an example, the U.S. pays the second highest corporate taxes in the world. If you were a company that could go anywhere in the world, how likely are you to go to a country with those sort of tax rates? Then take in consideration the litigious nature of our country. Manufacturers are constantly getting sued, both by workers and consumers. The list of negatives for doing business here goes on and on, it's not just because of "cheap labor". You really put a target on your back if you're a successful company in this country.

Contrast that to many developing countries, like China, where they roll out the red carpet for successful companies that open up factories and businesses over there.

At the end of the day, most American businesses would prefer to manufacture in the United States, but they also don't want to close their doors. You're not going to build the industrial base up by "forcing" companies to start manufacturing here. The company will just shut down the entire operation if it's no longer profitable.

You can't expect a company to manufacture goods in the U.S. simply because it's the right thing to do, or because it's patriotic. They're not opening up a charity. There has to be the incentive to make money and become profitable. I know that sounds greedy, but that's how our capitalist system works.

Wow, that's an eye-opening post.

So in a nutshell, what you're saying is: that a combination of a tax-thirsty federal government, sue-happy attorneys, and environmentalist restrictions are what put the jobs and manufacturing off-shore.

Interesting.

The only problem I have with the post is that you didn't define "greed." We call it "greed" when someone ELSE is getting rich. When I am getting rich, I call it "working hard and doing the best I can to get by."
 

Deltarat

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Wow, that's an eye-opening post.

So in a nutshell, what you're saying is: that a combination of a tax-thirsty federal government, sue-happy attorneys, and environmentalist restrictions are what put the jobs and manufacturing off-shore.

Interesting.

The only problem I have with the post is that you didn't define "greed." We call it "greed" when someone ELSE is getting rich. When I am getting rich, I call it "working hard and doing the best I can to get by."



I agree-taxes,attorneys, EPA and you also have to add the unions to some extent, are running companies overseas. I know I will catch some flack on the unions. If we let China do all of our manufacturing, we just think we are getting **** now. When we have no choice but to buy from them, we will get worse junk than we get now. The biggest problem will be the unsafe products we get. Half the products are unsafe now.
I don't think any thing that has to do with defense should be made out of this country. If we ever had to be involved in a global war and another country was making parts for planes, ships or bullets, we would be in a hell of a fix.
 

rhandwor

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If we lose all of our manufacturing base we don't have anything to trade to buy fuel. This is our problem look at the bail out. When they stop taking rubber checks we will find out in a hurry. Also look at shipping costs they have a lot of excuses but our leaders have drained the companies and moved on no loyalty for employees who made them money for years. I worked at a U S Steel plant it made money every year until they shut it down. They never invested in new equipment. They used steam engines until it shut down.
 

StanBo

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As an entrepreneur and father I worry a great deal about this. Where will my children be safe and what can I do to improve my family’s chances?


It seemed that most of my friends wanted to be white collar and now those choices have bit them in the end.

It is great to hash it out here but I think we all have to put our thinking caps on and come up with something. My latest project is built on an industry of disposable funds and I question it’s stance in such hard economic times.

I have to invent a widget. Don’t we all just need some widgets?
 

Lookin4'67Galaxieconv

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Atlanta, GA
Wow, that's an eye-opening post.

So in a nutshell, what you're saying is: that a combination of a tax-thirsty federal government, sue-happy attorneys, and environmentalist restrictions are what put the jobs and manufacturing off-shore.

Interesting.

The only problem I have with the post is that you didn't define "greed." We call it "greed" when someone ELSE is getting rich. When I am getting rich, I call it "working hard and doing the best I can to get by."

I agree with Stevie V. The environmental restrictions are totally overboard now...companies are too afraid to manufacture anything here anymore. Combine that with the tax rates, union labor, etc, and it's no wonder companies are going elsewhere.

To answer Merkava's original post...absolutely we should have a manufacturing base here. It was something I was hoping would get more publicity recently...the need to rebuild our manuf. base.

As far as greed...greed can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. Depends on your viewpoint.
 

rhandwor

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If the fuel goes up again its going to be cheaper to do more manufacturing in the U S. I look at the first bail out for GM 1 billion to build a new plant in Brazil. Ford is planning an 80 billion plant in Mexico. This I'm really opposed to taxpayer dollars to do away with U S jobs.
 

eschoendorff

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I completely agree. Do you want to see a good example of what happens when an American manufacturer tries to be all things to all people? You get companies like General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler that have their hand out for taxpayer money because they're completely broke. And it's not because of cheaper foreign labor. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Mercedes, BMW all have manufacturing plants in the U.S. where workers are paid quite well.

The Big 3's business models just aren't sustainable. Having factory workers paid six-figure salaries, lavish pensions, 100% free health care, etc. Individuals with MBA's don't make this kind of money or benefits. Americans need to learn they're aren't entitled to jobs like this simply because they're Americans.

This ethic of entitlement is what's killing this country. People think they deserve all these things, and start screaming at the government when it's not given to them.

Bullseye. :beer:
 

eschoendorff

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Wow, that's an eye-opening post.

So in a nutshell, what you're saying is: that a combination of a tax-thirsty federal government, sue-happy attorneys, and environmentalist restrictions are what put the jobs and manufacturing off-shore.

Interesting.

The only problem I have with the post is that you didn't define "greed." We call it "greed" when someone ELSE is getting rich. When I am getting rich, I call it "working hard and doing the best I can to get by."

I agree. Sometime I think that folks forget that industry is motivated (and well so) by profitability, not emotion or patriotism or any other -isms...
 

autoace

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I saw the BMW factory in North Carolina, It was a special, on the Speed channel. I'm glad to see anything, giving Americans decent job opportunities.:thumbup:
 

eschoendorff

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I saw the BMW factory in North Carolina, It was a special, on the Speed channel. I'm glad to see anything, giving Americans decent job opportunities.:thumbup:

Don't forget about all the various divisions of Caterpillar and John Deere... lots still made here.

In truth, while we have shipped a lot of manufacturing out of the country, we are not down for the count. We still have some pretty significant manufacturing here in the states. And... there is a degree of world-wide demand for American made goods. We have a reputation for quality. As long as there is a reasonable demand, I think that our manufacturing base will have a leg to stand on.
 

eschoendorff

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As long as they don't start teaching Chinese to elementary kids, we might have a chance.

NOT teaching Chinese to elementary kids has NOTHING to do with the solution. In fact, the belief that elementary kids won't need to be intimately familiar with other languages and cultures is indeed naive....
 

autoace

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There never was, or is alot of industry, here in Maine. There are alot of hardworking folks up here; that have to work hard and be creative, to make a living. Most of us, have no conception of entitlement here. This is a coastal/tourist area, so the mix of people is diverse. It's nice not to have the smog at least. With the economy the way it is now, we all have to be a little creative for our future success. We can't really have reliance on big corporations anymore, for our jobs.
 

eschoendorff

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There never was, or is alot of industry, here in Maine. There are alot of hardworking folks up here; that have to work hard and be creative, to make a living. Most of us, have no conception of entitlement here. This is a coastal/tourist area, so the mix of people is diverse. It's nice not to have the smog at least. With the economy the way it is now, we all have to be a little creative for our future success. We can't really have reliance on big corporations anymore, for our jobs.

Make sure you keep Ingersoll tractors built in Maine! Those are badass tractors and it would be a crying shame if those weren't made here anymore!
 

autoace

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Make sure you keep Ingersoll tractors built in Maine! Those are badass tractors and it would be a crying shame if those weren't made here anymore!

There are alot of organic farmers up here, that love those tractors, I forgot about those. Thinking of that, it's almost time for me to goto work. Have a good day!
 

buening

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My wife works for Caterpillar. The majority of the plants are here in the US, but they do have some overseas plants. Caterpillar is in lockdown phase with company travel and extra spending, and are in preliminary phases of possible layoffs. What I find ironic is that they are seeing record sales, yet their profit margin is down. They are still sitting pretty good compared to automakers.

China is having troubles with inflation and the cost of goods continue to rise there. See this article, which there are tons of others with a simple google search: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/13/business/yuan.php

One article described how inflation of some essential goods has risen more than some peoples entire paychecks.

They apparently have set a minimum wage in China as well, but I seriously wonder if it is even enforced. I don't know how it compares to other countries, but I'm sure its still really really low. Heres the article, although not a recent one: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...x?guid={B120D814-3C01-468A-9C11-B7596BCE1A35}

I have a feeling that due to the way their communist government is ran, they will have issues in the near future and their goods will no longer be dirt cheap........just a hunch
 
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