Does this exist? Looking for a switch to go from 220v to 110v

[setlab]

So I have a bunch of free time and am building a pretty neat small welding table/welder cart that's on caster wheels with electrical plug-ins built in. I want to not have extension cords running everywhere on my floor.

What I want to do is primarily have it hooked up to a 220v 50a outlet on the wall to power my welder, also I want to take one leg of 110v and power a row of outlets for my angle grinders and whatnot. To me that's simple and easy to do, but what I want to incorporate and am not sure about is the ability to just plug my table into 110v input power to use only my power outlets and not my welder.

I see a problem with this idea though, when the table is plugged into 220v I will have a live 110v male plug (and a live 110v leg on my 220v male plug with 110v plugged in) and that seems a bit unsafe to me. What I want to do is have a switch (I'm imagining an old swinging contact type of switch) that can disconnect the 110v imput while 220v is plugged in and disconnect the 220v when 110v is plugged in.

Does a switch like that exist?

Hopefully that description is easily pictured without a diagram. Picture for attention

 

[FlaGman]

Maybe instead fab up a short pigtail to plug the welder plug into a standard outlet and power the one leg to your 110 outlets on the cart?

 

[Doug Arthurs]

So I have a bunch of free time and am building a pretty neat small welding table/welder cart that's on caster wheels with electrical plug-ins built in. I want to not have extension cords running everywhere on my floor.

What I want to do is primarily have it hooked up to a 220v 50a outlet on the wall to power my welder, also I want to take one leg of 110v and power a row of outlets for my angle grinders and whatnot. To me that's simple and easy to do, but what I want to incorporate and am not sure about is the ability to just plug my table into 110v input power to use only my power outlets and not my welder.

I see a problem with this idea though, when the table is plugged into 220v I will have a live 110v male plug (and a live 110v leg on my 220v male plug with 110v plugged in) and that seems a bit unsafe to me. What I want to do is have a switch (I'm imagining an old swinging contact type of switch) that can disconnect the 110v imput while 220v is plugged in and disconnect the 220v when 110v is plugged in.

Does a switch like that exist?

Hopefully that description is easily pictured without a diagram. Picture for attention

If I understand correctly what you want to do it is not possible because you have no neutral for the 110v. You can't use the ground as a neutral.

 

[setlab]

Maybe instead fab up a short pigtail to plug the welder plug into a standard outlet and power the one leg to your 110 outlets on the cart?

Now I feel dumb not thinking of that before lol. Good idea! I think you just saved me a bunch of head scratching.

 

[setlab]

If I understand correctly what you want to do it is not possible because you have no neutral for the 110v. You can't use the ground as a neutral.

So I'll never be able to run a 110v outlet from a 220v leg because there is no neutral? Tangent question but what does the neutral do in a circuit?

 

[sberry]

No,,, no,, and more no. Get a cheap cord for the tools. Not only no neutral in this scheme but these tools that run on 120v,,, 120,,,, are limited to 20A breaker. There is a reason I don't do this type of thing (and I can) is its another layer of equipment and complication.
You also don't need a welder every time you grind. Small convenient cord is good.

 

[laser3kw]

So I'll never be able to run a 110v outlet from a 220v leg because there is no neutral?

true
that is, if you do it to code (and safely) with the correct receptacle for the 50 amp welder.

 

[sberry]

Maybe instead fab up a short pigtail to plug the welder plug into a standard outlet and power the one leg to your 110 outlets on the cart?

Hang around here a bit, I can see we got some work to do.

 

[sberry]

true
that is, if you do it to code (and safely) with the correct receptacle for the 50 amp welder.

Why wouldn't you want to do this to "code" and intentionally create a situation very dangerous to both persons and property. No way,, or should really say no practical way to do this without another wire and additional breaker.

 

[setlab]

Like I said I have lots of time, and why? Because I guess. Adding a small breaker for 20a wasn't out of the question, but it sounds like the no neutral thing prevents this working. Unless there is some way to get around this?

And this is just my garage, so as long as I don't mess my tools up or catch fire and it looks decent I'm happy with it. Not really a code kinda guy.

 

[sberry]

It may be hard to believe but the electric code guys didn't come up with it because they didn't have anything better to do. Some of it been in place for over 100 years. I do a few service calls, one might be amazed at how many issues caused by seemingly minor code violations.
On top of the breaker, the wire there is also the gfci. I worked with a guy, company owner "hates" gfci. Also not a "code kinda guy" but reason he does is that his stuff is junk, type who intentionally rips ground pin out of a new cord, ratty old cords, just junk, I am amazed osha ain't ran him out. Doesn't believe in box connectors, Rome thru sheet metal holes and proud of it, can't be troubled to tighten a ground screw.

 

[setlab]

Ok that's fine and all that, I'm under advisement. Check the box thank you.

Thinking about my neutral wire situation, I've had several welders in the past that have had 110v outlets built in to run water coolers, I've even seen one run a little grinder for tungsten sharpening. How does that work, is the second leg of the 220v plug acting as a neutral wire in this case?

 

[sberry]

No, they have an additional transformer internal.

No way,, or should really say no practical way to do this without another wire and additional breaker.

This why I put the disclaimer in an earlier post.

 

[sberry]

I have10 welders and 20 grinders. I run a cord from a legal circuit. Nothing wrong with routing it out of the way. By using the common stuff the circuit design is done for you. These threads are good, lots of stuff to learn from them about the fundamental basics of proper circuit design.

 

[bamawildcat]

To do this right you are going to need a 4 prong cord rated for the proper amperage, a 4 space load center (they don't make 3 space) and proper outlets. In effect you will have a subpanel mounted on your bench with a cord and plug to the wall.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So I have a bunch of free time and am building a pretty neat small welding table/welder cart that's on caster wheels with electrical plug-ins built in. I want to not have extension cords running everywhere on my floor.

What I want to do is primarily have it hooked up to a 220v 50a outlet on the wall to power my welder, also I want to take one leg of 110v and power a row of outlets for my angle grinders and whatnot. To me that's simple and easy to do, but what I want to incorporate and am not sure about is the ability to just plug my table into 110v input power to use only my power outlets and not my welder.

I see a problem with this idea though, when the table is plugged into 220v I will have a live 110v male plug (and a live 110v leg on my 220v male plug with 110v plugged in) and that seems a bit unsafe to me. What I want to do is have a switch (I'm imagining an old swinging contact type of switch) that can disconnect the 110v imput while 220v is plugged in and disconnect the 220v when 110v is plugged in.

Does a switch like that exist?

Hopefully that description is easily pictured without a diagram. Picture for attention

FYI the voltage is 120/240v not 110/220v

There are several problems here with your idea. The first is there is no neutral in a 6-50p, which has already been pointed out to you.

The second is the outlet is breakered @ 50a and you cannot use one of the legs to power some 5-15 receptacles even if you did have a neutral. You would need secondary overcurrent protection. Otherwise, you can have big problems if the 5-15r and wiring was overloaded.

Maybe instead fab up a short pigtail to plug the welder plug into a standard outlet and power the one leg to your 110 outlets on the cart?

say what?

how would he power a 240v welder from a 120v outlet?

So I'll never be able to run a 110v outlet from a 220v leg because there is no neutral? Tangent question but what does the neutral do in a circuit?

Hard stop.

Since you dont know the basic fundamentals of electricity such as what a neutral is, you really shouldnt be doing any wiring at all.

Go grab an intro book on electricity and educate yourself first.

The neutral aka grounded conductor is used in tandem with an ungrounded conductor to provide 120v. 2 ungrounded conductors provide 240v. This is on a split phase single phase service.

Like I said I have lots of time, and why? Because I guess. Adding a small breaker for 20a wasn't out of the question, but it sounds like the no neutral thing prevents this working. Unless there is some way to get around this?

And this is just my garage, so as long as I don't mess my tools up or catch fire and it looks decent I'm happy with it. Not really a code kinda guy.

If you have lots of time go checkout some electrical 101 books and read them.

What you propose to due here WILL create a potential for fire...

It may be hard to believe but the electric code guys didn't come up with it because they didn't have anything better to do. Some of it been in place for over 100 years. I do a few service calls, one might be amazed at how many issues caused by seemingly minor code violations.
On top of the breaker, the wire there is also the gfci. I worked with a guy, company owner "hates" gfci. Also not a "code kinda guy" but reason he does is that his stuff is junk, type who intentionally rips ground pin out of a new cord, ratty old cords, just junk, I am amazed osha ain't ran him out. Doesn't believe in box connectors, Rome thru sheet metal holes and proud of it, can't be troubled to tighten a ground screw.

wow

Ok that's fine and all that, I'm under advisement. Check the box thank you.

Thinking about my neutral wire situation, I've had several welders in the past that have had 110v outlets built in to run water coolers, I've even seen one run a little grinder for tungsten sharpening. How does that work, is the second leg of the 220v plug acting as a neutral wire in this case?

remember its 120v/240v

An ungrounded conductor can never be a neutral so no its not acting as a neutral wire.

What is going on in those welders is there is a step down transformer along with secondary overcurrent protection for those outlets on the welder.

To be blunt, youve spent more time thinking and typing about how to do this than the time it wouldve taken to grab an extension cord and plug it into a bench mounted power strip. *facepalm*

 

[sberry]

There is nothing wrong with him asking this here. He may learn better here than study in a book.
Wylie,,, forgot the gfci too.

 

[setlab]

I just love asking questions here, no matter what the subject it seems like the seasoned pros that do this stuff for a living always have to come in and flex, subtlely telling you how dumb you are.

Despite that, and even though I'm not a code guy, like sberry said it's good to ask to learn. I had forgotten about the neutral wire, just an idea that's not going to work. I'm sure you professionals have them all the time as well ��

Appreciate the help

 

[u3b3rg33k]

I'm wiring up my welding cart. 14-50 feed via 100' 6ga CS63 cable, two 6-50 outlets. 2 space square D breaker box with 20A breakers feeding 5-20 outlets.

 

[sberry]

I'm sure you professionals have them all the time as well ��

Lots of them, done lot of this wrong especially when I started and didnt always have good mentoring. These forums are really good, often better than a single teacher for several reasons but they catch most errors or poorly worded explanations and often don't let up until its clear,,, or hopefully clear.

 

[sberry]

The neutral was part of it but one of the deal breakers as was over current and really gfci too. There are also a couple other things that may be acceptable as s circuit for a welder not quite right when applied to a multi wire circuit.

 

[Mr. T]

the seasoned pros that do this stuff for a living always have to come in and flex, subtlely telling you how dumb you are.

It’s the internet. You knew what you were getting into when you posted.

Despite that, and even though I'm not a code guy,

This is a big red flag to people that do this type of thing for a living.

You might have never seen how bad things can go when work like this is done wrong, unfortunately a lot of us have.

Even though this is “the internet” I have a conscience. Most of those pesky codes came about because of bad things happening. So I can’t tell you something will be okay when it really is not okay.

Appreciate the help

Okay, let’s start over then. I know you’ve outlined a rough idea of how things work in your head but let’s start at the beginning.

Without going into any technical details, what is the outcome you want to see? What is the input and what is the output?

 

[pi_guy]

This is GJ if he wants one cord find him a 240v grinder then both issues get covered....

 

[laser3kw]

I'm wiring up my welding cart. 14-50 feed via 100' 6ga CS63 cable, two 6-50 outlets. 2 space square D breaker box with 20A breakers feeding 5-20 outlets.

kind of a subpanel on a cord? interesting....
what does the portable sub panel plug into? and Breaker size?

 

[MikeF2316]

This is GJ if he wants one cord find him a 240v grinder then both issues get covered....

A grinder with a 50 amp plug! Or a fused 50 amp to 20 amp adapter!

 

[sberry]

I think u3 meant he wired cord not cable?

 

[CGT80]

kind of a subpanel on a cord? interesting....
what does the portable sub panel plug into? and Breaker size?

A 4 pin 125/250v 50 amp receptacle (used for RV and appliances) will have the required neutral vs the common 6-50.

#6 cord will handle 50 amps, so a 50 amp breaker covers the wire and receptacle. The sub panel at the bench will allow it to be split to any type of receptacle needed with current protection and gfci 125v 20 amp receptacle should cover the grinders.

The receptacle at the wall will only work directly for the welder with a pigtail/adapter.....that is the only downside, plus it will require a total of 4 conductors in the #6 cord instead of the 3 used for 250v only applications.

My tig welder has a separate transformer for 115v, 15v, and 30v, and also 230v to power the cooling fan and control circuitry. As mentioned, it provides a neutral without needing one on the primary power. The main transformer handles 208, 230, and 460v single phase input. It was made about 1965, according to the serial number, hence the lower voltages.

Just about anything CAN be done, but it doesn't mean it should be done. So, for home use and considering you probably don't already have the heavy cord, do the 4 wire setup and a little sub panel.

Find some YouTube videos on basic single phase 120/240v electrical. It isn't terribly complicated and has somewhat fascinated me since I was a kid.......now it helps pay the bills.

Sent from my SM-G955U using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[sberry]

This is a gem. 30 to 15. Not a lick of writing on it.
Post above is good.
I used to try every variation they ever invented. I was at retirement farm shop of engineer. He wasn't scared to use some stuff but was not above installing a light from a simple switch if he could.
A 100 ft 6 cord is really good, I fu one 250 for 75, walked right by it. But there may be other advantage of 2 cord on projects. It may not be much more work as you are free to move and not all machines need 6 wire. Most 50A machines run dandy from 10 wire. Even more so with invereters.

 

[American Locomotive]

If you're really interested in doing this project without adding a new circuit to your home, you can get a ~1.5 KVA 240v > 120v transformer for around $100 on e-bay. They're pretty small and would mount to your table easily.

It will provide 120v power directly from the 240v input. It would need a breaker of course, but that's no big deal.

 

[sberry]

I got a 10 cord about 70 ft and another one near 30, maybe another short one. Use 1 a little bit, nothing I use will overheat a 10 wire. At one time had the 70 on a cart for a small feeder. Buzz box will run well on 100 ft of 10.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Here's a list of the voltages around the world>>> https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plug-voltage-by-country/

 

[sberry]

A grinder with a 50 amp plug! Or a fused 50 amp to 20 amp adapter!

This is what the 50A adapter is for the dvi welders. Actually a 50 to 30 or so. The 210 used to come 12 cord but the dvi comes 14. It's why they say not to.tamper with the adapter and wire direct. With that adapter is legal on 50A welder circuit. Without it would need to be current limited to 30.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

kind of a subpanel on a cord? interesting....
what does the portable sub panel plug into? and Breaker size?

i've got 14-50 and 14-30 wall outlets in my garage. probably going to have a CS63 outlet installed as well for convenience.

the "sub panel" and outlets are bolted to my welding cart (OK, will be soon, WIP). the 50A outlet breaker protects the wire and welders. the local breaker box is there to protect the 120V loads, because putting a 20A outlet on a 50A breaker is bad practice. the local outlets are also GFCI.

basically the point of this is so I can leave stuff on the welding cart plugged in. Unplugging things to switch between the mig welder / plasma cutter is a pain, 6-50 doesn't unplug easily, and my 14-50 to 6-50 adapter holds so tight i practically have to stand on it to separate it. not to mention the cycle life of CS63 is superior to that of 14-50/6-50.

I think u3 meant he wired cord not cable?

call it what you will, it's a CS63 extension cord. 3x 6ga, 1x 8ga SOOW.
shoe for scale:

A 4 pin 125/250v 50 amp receptacle (used for RV and appliances) will have the required neutral vs the common 6-50.

#6 cord will handle 50 amps, so a 50 amp breaker covers the wire and receptacle. The sub panel at the bench will allow it to be split to any type of receptacle needed with current protection and gfci 125v 20 amp receptacle should cover the grinders.

The receptacle at the wall will only work directly for the welder with a pigtail/adapter.....that is the only downside, plus it will require a total of 4 conductors in the #6 cord instead of the 3 used for 250v only applications.

what he said.