Does this weld look okay?

[OctaneMotorsports]

Alright, I have been doing a lot more welding lately. I was employed by my neighbor to make up a couple small things for his race car (brake and clutch master cylinder mounts, a guard for the master cylinders, misc. brackets etc.) Just small things that aren't really bearing a lot of weight as I don't completely trust myself to do anything structural. I have been welding for a year or so, pretty much self taught. I turn sixteen in February so now I can go do some classes at the community collage once I invest in a good auto-dark helmet.

Anyway, most of the stuff I have been doing lately has been done and out the door, so I laid down this bead on some scrap so I could get a picture as to get some advice. These pictures are both of the same weld. Sorry for the poor quality, cell phone camera. This is with Lincoln E6013 and a ****** "Mastercraft" (Campbell Hausfeld) 70A stick welder I got from Canadian Tire for $100. It's certainly not even remotely decent by any means, but I have made it a personal goal to learn how to lay down some decent beads with the equipment I have before investing in something better.

This is pretty much just an average bead for me. I've done much better, and much worse. But overall this is what most of them look like (minus the hiccup at 1/3 of the way through). Any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Franz©]

Well, at least you're running 6013. Excellent choice of rods, especially for a beginner.
First, and I really can't see the view I need, you need more heat. That bead apears to be laying on top of the metal without much penetration. You either need a smaller diameter rod or a bigger machine.

For a better indication of what your bead is doing, hacksaw across the metal and weld, and polish up the cut end. A little vinegar rubbed onto the polished surface may be necessary to see your penetration better.

Your travel speed ain't half bad considering the machine you're trying to weld with. What diameter rod are you running and what amperage?

 

[Down Under Bloke]

I’m with Franz; good effort. To me the finish looks better than the start, I’m guessing this is because of the accumulated heat that built up in the steel as you where welding, supporting the smaller rod or more heat advice.

PS: I couldn’t weld like that when I was 16.

 

[OctaneMotorsports]

Well, at least you're running 6013. Excellent choice of rods, especially for a beginner.
First, and I really can't see the view I need, you need more heat. That bead apears to be laying on top of the metal without much penetration. You either need a smaller diameter rod or a bigger machine.

For a better indication of what your bead is doing, hacksaw across the metal and weld, and polish up the cut end. A little vinegar rubbed onto the polished surface may be necessary to see your penetration better.

Your travel speed ain't half bad considering the machine you're trying to weld with. What diameter rod are you running and what amperage?

Rods are 3/32" IIRC (does that sound correct? I'll run out to the garage and check). Smaller than standard size rods, but it's as big as this machine will handle. The welder has a "LOW" (like 40A or something) and a "HIGH" setting (70A) I use smaller rods for the low setting on really thin stuff. Maybe I should try out using the smaller rods on the high section, hhhmmm...

Thanks for the advice, I'll run out and confirm the size in a few minutes.

 

[Red Green]

Seems like you are doing good for your age keep practicing. I know that around here seems like every estate aucton I have been to I have seen a lincon arc welder sold for next to nothing.

 

[OctaneMotorsports]

Seems like you are doing good for your age keep practicing. I know that around here seems like every estate aucton I have been to I have seen a lincon arc welder sold for next to nothing.

I have no problem buying a better machine, but I need to get the electrical service in my garage upgraded first. Even this machine will pop the breaker if I run it too long on "high".

 

[brianpgriset]

I agree 6013 is a great electrode to start with. Burns down real nice and is very controlable. The best thing to do is keep buring rod. The more you do the better you get. One other word of advice, I always try to plant an elbow to the welding table to get a bit of stability.

 

[Franz©]

Running 3/32 on 40 amps is damn near a chalenge to keep the arc burning.
Under those conditions I'd be willing to bet a whole dollar there is little if any penetration and the deposit is pretty much sitting on top of the base metal.
Give the 70 amp setting a try.

Also keep the arc as short as possible.
There is only so much you can do with the machine you're using.

 

[OctaneMotorsports]

Running 3/32 on 40 amps is damn near a chalenge to keep the arc burning.
Under those conditions I'd be willing to bet a whole dollar there is little if any penetration and the deposit is pretty much sitting on top of the base metal.
Give the 70 amp setting a try.

Also keep the arc as short as possible.
There is only so much you can do with the machine you're using.

I'm running the 3/32" on the 70A right now, which is what I did that weld with.

I was saying I could use the next size smaller rod (the ones i normally use on 40A) on the high (70A) setting to see if I can get more heat, since that appears to be the problem (not enough heat, poor penetration).

 

[rickairmedic]

Brendan I would say thats a good start trying the smaller rods on the higher setting and like Franze said try cutting through the weld to see what kind of penetration you are getting also you can try the vise and BFH method of testing practice welds .

Rick

 

[OctaneMotorsports]

Would it help to heat the piece before welding? I have a small oxy-acetylene outfit and a propane torch.

 

[mulepackin]

I'm just real glad to see a 16 year old that is interested in welding and wrenching as you are. Doesn't seem to be much of that anymore. Keep practicing, and working at it. Good job!

 

[Red Green]

Read this thread on NastyZ28.com http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103605&highlight=welding+dummies

It has just about everything any person starting out welding would want to know.

 

[Franz©]

Would it help to heat the piece before welding? I have a small oxy-acetylene outfit and a propane torch.

Honestly, not in any apreciable way I can think of.

Your machine's lack of power is too much of a handicap to overcome by preheating. You could try 1/16 6013 if you had some, but I would advise against buying any because 1/16 is like tryin to weld with cooked spagetti.

 

[OctaneMotorsports]

Honestly, not in any apreciable way I can think of.

Your machine's lack of power is too much of a handicap to overcome by preheating. You could try 1/16 6013 if you had some, but I would advise against buying any because 1/16 is like tryin to weld with cooked spagetti.

So basically you're saying I need to get the electrical service in the garage upgraded, then upgrade my machine.

I often use my friend's dad's Miller stick welder. That thing is sssooo nice, so much better and easier to use and the quality of my welds reflect that.

 

[toolfreak]

Yeah I would upgrade the electric service and then get better welder and it will make it so much easier to learn to weld with a decent machine.

 

[Franz©]

Rhere is no substitute for output power on a welder. You can't have power out without power in.

Now, if your mom has an electric (hydro) stove or drier, and you can get away with it, a decent extension cord might get you by.
Probably be a lot easier to run power to the garage though.

 

[the intimidator]

How thick is the metal you are trying to weld? from what I recall last time I was arc welding I had the machine set to around 160 with a 1/8" rod on I believe 1/4" steel That is what my memory is telling me but it was about a year ago last time I burnt a rod. Point is you have no where near enough amp's or long enough duty cycle for anything thicker then 1/8 inch plate try selling that machine off to some yuppie on ebay and pick up a old lincoln buzz box you can generally find them for 200$ or so most anywhere ac/dc at that. You will find that you're welds look better are easier to lay and will actually hold something structural together without so much worry You seem to have the basic's down and you're limitation is the machine keep up the good work

 

[the fab shack]

I never stepped back to learn stick welding. I did it a few times when I did commercial glass work, but I never did it to the extent of being good at it. I am a d1.1 and d1.6 certified welder in MIG. Here is acouple pics of my MIG welds.

 

[markb1]

Nice welds ,I've been practicing with my Hobart 120 and would like to know a little about your welds,

material thickness
wire size
type of machine
wire thickness
heat and speed
push or pull, and motion

Thanks in advance

 

[the fab shack]

The bottom piece is .125 stainless plate, the top piece is .250 stainless. .035 stainless wire using a tri mix. Heat was set at 26-27 amps and wire speed was set around 5-6 and i push my welds. Pushing your weld keeps the area hot and the weld really pushing in.

The machine is a Miller 300 arc welder with wire feeder added. It is a 480volt machine I use at work. I was showing a guy who doesnt know much about welding, how to weld on that piece there.

I have a lincoln 140 in my garage and a hobart 180 coming soon (garage landlord hasnt ran 220 yet anyways)

As so my method, I have learned a few over the years. One has been just an arc and push method. I think it gives a washed out look, not very neat imo. For the welds above and how I weld 99% of the time, as I push, i push forward some and then pull back half of what I pushed forward. No circles, no half circles, etc. On a welder this big, you dont need to as the wire and heat is so sufficent, it fills the area on its own.

On my 140 at the shop, I do use a half circle method. But I still push and everything the same as above. I do that b/c it being a 140 and wire being .035 (mig wire here and mig gas), it doesnt puddle like the bigger machines do, so you have to take your time and fill the area you're welding, your self. (at home, my machine burns very nice up to 3/16 and will do 1/4 with a bevel and welded on both sides)

Here is are acouple welds using my 140 at home.

 

[markb1]

Thanks for the info and pics.

I learned on stick so I 'm having a hard time learning to push my welds and not getting a puddle with the small machine makes getting a good bead a lot harder IMHO, also I wonder about the penetration not being sufficient.

Your comment about the larger mach. running hotter and getting good penetration is good to know. I have a Flat Out Eng. corvette sub frame to install in a '50 Chev truck and have been wondering if the 120 will do it?

That looks like a huge "c" notch, what are you building?

Also what kind of helmet are you using? I'm using an antique with a gold lens and I see double half the time or can't see at all , so I've looked at a Digital Elite. When I can see my welds don't look to bad so figure money spent there is well put. Any pros cons or otherwise.
Thanks Mark

 

[Franz©]

Mark, clean the gold lense and replace th spatter lenses.
The high priced helmets can't hold a candle to a gold filter plate.

 

[markb1]

I don't know Franz, that " point nod-flip hunt for arc" I've never mastered, and I haven't heard of any pro welders still using the old school helmets, ( maybe in out of position work once in a while)

What short comings do you see in the auto darks?

 

[Franz©]

Well NOW you do know one who is still using the gold lense!

I've looked at autodarks since they were $900+ a copy, and have yet to stumble across one I liked.

I started looking thru green glass, and moved up to gold probably in the 70s, and I love it. I just bought a Jackson nd moved my gold filter plate into it from the old helmet.

I have a fairly good understanding of how the LC array functions in an autodark, and it still doesn't impress me. Then again, I've already had the fun of getting an eyeball laser welded by an overpriced eyedoctor, so I might have be a little more hesitant than the average guy.

When you have a scratch in a gold plate, you know it, and scrap the plate right quick if you're smart. A LC array can easily have small failures and you won't notice them until after the damage is done. I still don't see NASA converting them space helmets to autodark for that very reason.

About the only place I see a use for autodarks is a production weldor doing TIG all day.

Point/nod is all part of the craft, and something you learn. After a while it becomes so automatic it's just like arc length, you don't think about it, just do it.

Most people have problems with seeing what's on the bright side of the helmet because the lense is dirty.

 

[the fab shack]

Thanks for the info and pics.

I learned on stick so I 'm having a hard time learning to push my welds and not getting a puddle with the small machine makes getting a good bead a lot harder IMHO, also I wonder about the penetration not being sufficient.

Your comment about the larger mach. running hotter and getting good penetration is good to know. I have a Flat Out Eng. corvette sub frame to install in a '50 Chev truck and have been wondering if the 120 will do it?

That looks like a huge "c" notch, what are you building?

Also what kind of helmet are you using? I'm using an antique with a gold lens and I see double half the time or can't see at all , so I've looked at a Digital Elite. When I can see my welds don't look to bad so figure money spent there is well put. Any pros cons or otherwise.
Thanks Mark

Being stock frames are only .120 a good 110 will work. The method is where it will hold, or will not hold. What I would do is if you can, slide part of the subframe into the old frame. If that isnt able to be done, then have a gap about the thickness of a nickle (I actually put a nickle between my **** joints to space them), when you burn a good bead, cut a square peice that you place over that weld in a diamond pattern and weld that on. It is what we call a 'fish plate'. This will make that joint damn near bullet proof.

If you dont feel comfy with the 110, then a good 220 under a grand will do the job perfectly. The Hobart Handler 185 is 7XX and it will burn 3/8 all day. We use such huge machines because the company I use to work for, did production work and the 480volt machines are 100% duty. I have never shut off my 110 lincoln and I have welded with it for hours on end. The duty cycle is based off of solid runs.. i.e. they say you can weld every 3 minutes out of 10, well that is 3 SOLID minutes of the trigger pulled.. i've never laid a 3 minute long bead and I do 3-4 foot long welds on some of the things we do.

That c notch is so huge b/c i backhalfed my truck, the frame extends straight out from the factory (basically the backhalf lays on the ground also) then the notch starts and it is notched for a 30" tire. Will a 24 fit on my nissan? barely, but I wont ever go that route. I had planned on it, but I will put it back together, stockfloor bodydropped on 20's and get rid of it. I wanna get rolling on my rod. Mini's are a waste of coin.

At my shop I have a harbor freight auto darkening. The lense is green and actually a really nice hood for 50 bucks. I've used SpeedGlass hoods that are 450 and at work I have a 70 dollar 'old school' hood with a gold glass lense in it. I would much rather have the hood at my work then the one at my shop, only b/c after 2 years of adjusting it (it liked to loose adjustments every so often) it is stripped and so the hood just falls to the chest most of the time.

It is hard to get into the groove from push to pull. We had a school come down and certify us at work and apparently this school is suppose to be one of the best in the northeast and the instructor was telling us with a mig, if you pull, the weld can not be as strong due to nothing is really help force the wire through into the metal since pulling allows for it to puddle onto into of puddle in like pushing does. Which I knew for while, but never seen proof of it.

Good luck learning to really get good on a MIG. Next on my agenda is TIG.

 

[markb1]

Franz, I'm going to give the old school Gold a second chance, maybe a new helmet that fits, flips better, clean lens, etc.

Fab Shack, thanks for the tips, I was about to give up on the mig but have been making progress.
If you've ever gas welded you'll find tig easy and a lot of fun. I did a little stainless work and loved it, you get a lot of control of your puddle kind of like playing with candle wax.

I was looking for an excuse to buy a new helmet and new welder but I know the problem is really operator error, so thanks to both of you for encouraging me to stick with what I have and improving my skills.

Mark

 

[brianpgriset]

I have a nice Hobart A/D Hood and a good ol' Huntsman 411P. Honestly I reach for the Huntsman 85% of the time. It's super light and very comfortable. I really only use the A/D hood when doing "stitch" welding on sheetmetal panels.

 

[Franz©]

""It is hard to get into the groove from push to pull. We had a school come down and certify us at work and apparently this school is suppose to be one of the best in the northeast and the instructor was telling us with a mig, if you pull, the weld can not be as strong due to nothing is really help force the wire through into the metal since pulling allows for it to puddle onto into of puddle in like pushing does. Which I knew for while, but never seen proof of it.""

Oh PLEASE post the name of that so called school.

If that isn't the biggest crock of **** I heard in 2007 I don't know what is!
The fool who made the statement "force the wire through into the metal since pulling allows for it to puddle onto into of puddle in like pushing does" is a total idiot! The damn wire is liquid at tha point it contacts the puddle. Did that dipshit teach rivet driving the week before? Ashole schools like the one you mention are another reason US manufacturing is going off shore.

I can't begin to count the number of times I've switched from pulling the gun to pushing it in the same pass. It's not even something that requires thinking.

 

[Jononon]

If that isn't the biggest crock of **** I heard in 2007 I don't know what is!

I'd like to second that 'WTF ??'

I make no claim to be God's gift to welding, but the guy who taught me sticks together nuclear reactors - you aim to push, whenever possible, to ensure the puddle is well shielded by gas. The idea that the MIG wire feed somehow won't deposit metal into the puddle if you pull is just bizarre.

 

[the fab shack]

""It is hard to get into the groove from push to pull. We had a school come down and certify us at work and apparently this school is suppose to be one of the best in the northeast and the instructor was telling us with a mig, if you pull, the weld can not be as strong due to nothing is really help force the wire through into the metal since pulling allows for it to puddle onto into of puddle in like pushing does. Which I knew for while, but never seen proof of it.""

Oh PLEASE post the name of that so called school.

If that isn't the biggest crock of **** I heard in 2007 I don't know what is!
The fool who made the statement "force the wire through into the metal since pulling allows for it to puddle onto into of puddle in like pushing does" is a total idiot! The damn wire is liquid at tha point it contacts the puddle. Did that dipshit teach rivet driving the week before? Ashole schools like the one you mention are another reason US manufacturing is going off shore.

I can't begin to count the number of times I've switched from pulling the gun to pushing it in the same pass. It's not even something that requires thinking.

Welding Training and testing institute

www.welderinstitute.com

Allentown, PA.

 

[toxicz28]

Did that dipshit teach rivet driving the week before?

Hey! What's wrong with driving rivets????
Aside from the obsolescence, the noise, the weight of the tools, they are pretty damn hot too.....
OK, scratch that!

 

[Franz©]

toxicz, not a damn thing, and I say that as the proud owner of several hammers & bucks along with a reamer or 2. Problem is I can't get hands on rivest in this damn town any more, and I'm damned if I'll pay shipping on steel rivets. I am however thinking of selling my suply of copper rivets and a hand squeeze if you're interested.

FabShack, sounds like another of the bullcrap hucksters that have invaded the ABE area and should be on the mix & Chop line over at Allentown Packing. Bunch of doGdamn labcoat wearin bastards contributing nothing but a phoney piece of paper to hang on the wall. Ship that guy 320 miles North, thru the tunnel to me and I'll weld his sorry *** in a barrel so he can figure out if I push or pull welding around the rim.

 

[goodfellow]

.......Ship that guy 320 miles North, thru the tunnel to me and I'll weld his sorry *** in a barrel so he can figure out if I push or pull welding around the rim.....

You're too much Franz -- God bless 'ya; and a Happy New Year to you and the lovely LN

 

[Franz©]

Just put him on 22 to the NEX to 81.

Did I mention LN spent 32 years in the ABE area?

Hell, just take him over to Bethleham and slip his sorry **** into one of the cylinders on the Todd engine. Damn I wish I could be on that project.

 

[toxicz28]

Thanks for the offer Franz, but my trade hasn't used rivets since the early 60's. Even for the historical projects, they use round headed bolts.
With the exception of replacement, all I know of riveting, I heard from the old-timers.

 

[Yotaforce]

Let me guess. Linking a mini? Nice work! My welds only look good if I hit them with a grinder. Strong, but not so pretty.

 

[the fab shack]

Let me guess. Linking a mini? Nice work! My welds only look good if I hit them with a grinder. Strong, but not so pretty.

Yes, that was the old 4 link/backhalf on my Nissan.. its ripped apart now for more work.

 

[bobss396]

Great welding information here! I never heard of a weld called out as "push" or "pull", I learned them as "up" (same as push) and "down" (same as pull). Up welds are trickier but stronger.

I have here a Lincoln 225 stick welder. I've built stock cars with it, fixed things on trucks and cars, made barbecues, etc. I also like the E6013 rods for general purpose. I also use E6011 for heavier welds, but it spatters like frying bacon and I never use it for overhead work.

Also, don't be bashful about using heavy amperage. I do most of my welds in the 110-140 amp range with 105-110 reserved for thinner material. Just hold the rod in real tight to the work, once you pull back on it, the required voltage shoots way up and you end up blowing a hole in the work.

Welding is 2 things, practice and being in a comfortable position. I have one of those instant-dark hoods now that is a great invention. Just a flip of the head and it's down, nice and light weight too.

But do read up on welding, there are a lot of books around and courses are available in local colleges and schools. I learned back when I was 16 in high school and took a course in automotive college when I was 19.

Bob

 

[toxicz28]

I also like the E6013 rods for general purpose. I also use E6011 for heavier welds, but it spatters like frying bacon and I never use it for overhead work.

Try welding with 7018 Bob. It has alot less spatter than 60 series wire.