Does using a ratcheting torque wrench as a regular ratchet wrench really miscalibrate it?

[BikeRider]

I've heard and been told that the only proper use of a torque wrench is for the final tightening, to make sure that it reaches but doesn't exceed the set torque value, and that you should never use it for any other purpose.

But this makes no sense to me because ratcheting torque wrenches, well, ratchet, usually in both directions, even if they usually only work as torque wrenches clockwise. Why would they make them reversible, or even ratchet, if they shouldn't be used as regular ratchets?

Yes, I realize that you should never use them to break a fastener. That's pretty obvious. But what's the problem with using them for the first part of tightening a fastener, before real resistance is felt, where we're talking at most single digit torque resistance? How could that miscalibrate them unless it's a really crappy torque wrench, in which case you shouldn't be using it anyway?

I've read the arguments, that they're made of metal parts and every time you use them, even with minor resistance, you weaken them a bit. But that sounds like nonsense to me, at least with quality torque wrenches, which are made of high quality parts and metal with the spring mechanism being made of very resilient steel that bounces back each time more or less back to where it was, like any quality spring.

If each use really did weaken the spring a bit, then this would be true of all other springs in a typical car, cylinder valves, strut coils, throttles, etc., and they'd soon go out of whack, which of course does not happen.

So, is this one of those "Oh everyone KNOWS!" things, or is there solid test data to back this up?

And FWIW I generally don't use torque wrenches this way, but just wondered if you can, without adverse consequences.

 

[cycle61]

I'm guessing probably not. Also, somebody did a test where leaving the spring fully compressed for a year or two didn't make any measurable difference compared to an identical unit sitting in a drawer with the adjustment released. I think these things are a lot less sensitive than most assume.

 

[FigN⋅m]

I would think the biggest drawback is the overall size compared to a 3/8" or 1/2" ratchet, making it very cumbersome
when around/under a car or the like where - at least for me, is when I use a TW most of the time.

I tend to use a ratchet much quicker and with far less regard to drops, impacts etc. than when switching to the TW, which
is more "pay attention" time, vs. when just running a nut or bolt. I think it's more likely to get damaged than wear out.

 

[woody 73]

I am in the camp of dropping my ratchets 24/7, darn not a ton of room to work with, with that being said I would cringe at dropping an expensive tw on the cold hard cement, (my floor floods all the time) making things even worse, if you see what I mean.

 

[BikeRider]

I am in the camp of dropping my ratchets 24/7, darn not a ton of room to work with, with that being said I would cringe at dropping an expensive tw on the cold hard cement, (my floor floods all the time) making things even worse, if you see what I mean.

Yeah but that's not what I asked about and extreme mistreatment is not a good way of gauging something far less severe. It's like saying that because crashing your car into a cement wall at 50mph would be bad for the car (and wall), you shouldn't hit traffic cones at 5mph because it could damage both too.

 

[BikeRider]

I'm guessing probably not. Also, somebody did a test where leaving the spring fully compressed for a year or two didn't make any measurable difference compared to an identical unit sitting in a drawer with the adjustment released. I think these things are a lot less sensitive than most assume.

Not sure if one continuous compression of the spring for an extended period of time at the max torque setting really compares to many brief compressions below min torque, but if that doesn't miscalibrate or damage it, then sure the latter wouldn't. But, again, it would require actual testing, not guessing.

 

[BikeRider]

I would think the biggest drawback is the overall size compared to a 3/8" or 1/2" ratchet, making it very cumbersome
when around/under a car or the like where - at least for me, is when I use a TW most of the time.

I tend to use a ratchet much quicker and with far less regard to drops, impacts etc. than when switching to the TW, which
is more "pay attention" time, vs. when just running a nut or bolt. I think it's more likely to get damaged than wear out.

Good points, but a different issue. I agree that being longer than typical ratchets of the same anvil size, they're not as easy to use in tight situations, plus there's always the danger of dropping them. I personally don't generally use them as ratchets for these reasons, although now and then I do with a fastener that I'm about to use it to torque it down with and it's right there, but am still wondering if the main reason typically given is valid.

 

[Treeman]

If you are torquing things with multiple fasteners like wheels, engine heads, various covers, etc., it is common to do it in steps, at least two or three times to tighten up the assembly evenly. In this instance I always use my torque wrench during the intermediate tightening. Doesn't everyone?

In the use situation you describe above with the pros/cons already discussed, I cannot imagine any significant harm done to a torque wrench using it for the initial tightening as well as the final tightening. Just my non-expert opinion.

Can you provide any links to sources that claim to not use a torque wrench for initial tightening?

 

[BikeRider]

If you are torquing things with multiple fasteners like wheels, engine heads, various covers, etc., it is common to do it in steps, at least two or three times to tighten up the assembly evenly. In this instance I always use my torque wrench during the intermediate tightening. Doesn't everyone?

In the use situation you describe above with the pros/cons already discussed, I cannot imagine any significant harm done to a torque wrench using for the initial tightening as well as the final tightening. Just my non-expert opinion.

Can you provide any links to sources that claim to not use a torque wrench for initial tightening?

No, I can't, not to any based on hard test data. But I was just chastised on a bicycle repair site for suggesting that this is ok, and the torque settings on most bikes are WAY lower than on cars. On my road bike the highest setting is 52 ft-lb for the bottom bracket (where the crank axle is), but otherwise they're mostly in the 5-25 ft-lb range, where you're even less likely to do any harm using it to initially tighten a fastener. I personally don't use them this way because as someone wrote above they're a bit cumbersome compared to ratchets. But I've been wondering if this is really a thing.

 

[Treeman]

I've heard and been told that the only proper use of a torque wrench is for the final tightening, to make sure that it reaches but doesn't exceed the set torque value, and that you should never use it for any other purpose.

My opinion is your concept of "proper use" is to differentiate the torque wrench as a precision tool vs. a regular ratchet that is meant to be somewhat abused in it's daily use. You shouldn't have your torque wrench sitting in the filth of daily mechanics work, sliding around on the concrete floor, falling off the tool chest, into the engine bay, etc., which is somewhat common for regular ratcheting wrenches.

And (you already stated this is not the case), if used in a professional setting daily, wouldn't it be better to wear out a regular ratchet vs. a much more expensive torque wrench?

Again, just my shadetree diy mechanic opinion based on no data.

 

[BikeRider]

My opinion is your concept of "proper use" is to differentiate the torque wrench as a precision tool vs. a regular ratchet that is meant to be somewhat abused in it's daily use. You shouldn't have your torque wrench sitting in the filth of daily mechanics work, sliding around on the concrete floor, falling off the tool chest, into the engine bay, etc., which is somewhat common for regular ratcheting wrenches.

Again, just my shadetree diy mechanic opinion based on no data.

Agreed, it shouldn't be the preferred ratchet to use most of the time, because it could get damaged in other ways if it's always mixed with other tools where it can get banged up. But that's different from it being damaged by using it as a ratchet. But if it's right there, and your other ratchets are some distance away in the toolbox, why not?

But mainly I want to know if there's test data on this and not just common or horse sense. I'm a skeptic at heart.

 

[mike93lx]

I seriously doubt there is any real data on this and it's 100% opinion.

Do what you want with your tools. If you are really worried about the torque spec, have your wrenches regularly calibrated and get stuff done.

I have no problem tightening bolts with my torque wrenches, but won't use one instead of a breaker bar. If it can handle 100ft lb, it sure as **** can handle running a bolt in, in my opinion

 

[FigN⋅m]

But I was just chastised on a bicycle repair site for suggesting that this is ok, and the torque settings on most bikes are WAY lower than on cars.

Oh jeez, well there you go! Both MTB and Roadies - especially mechanics, can get pretty proud of themselves sometimes.
I certainly know where they're coming from (worked with many), but it ain't gospel! Use your tools as you see fit.

As far as the spring in a micrometer style wrench, I've always understood springs wear out from cycling - not static states.
Does that mean I don't unload my wrench when not in use? Does that mean I didn't get a split-beam just in case? well...

 

[jayemm]

For those afraid of their clicker falling a few feet to the floor, check out this video. Makes sense when you consider how the wrench is constructed. I'm not advocating throwing it down the street like this guy. Enjoy. LOL

 

[5ubtle]

... I was just chastised on a bicycle repair site for suggesting that this is ok ...

Please ask the guy on the bicycle forum 'what his reasons are' and 'does he have any data?'. Post his response back here. We could all use a good laugh.

 

[BikeRider]

Oh jeez, well there you go! Both MTB and Roadies - especially mechanics, can get pretty proud of themselves sometimes.
I certainly know where they're coming from (worked with many), but it ain't gospel! Use your tools as you see fit.

As far as the spring in a micrometer style wrench, I've always understood springs wear out from cycling - not static states.
Does that mean I don't unload my wrench when not in use? Does that mean I didn't get a split-beam just in case? well...

Nailed it. Car mechanics tend to be down to earth and approachable and no question is too stupid if you don't work on cars yourself. But bike mechanics can be a bit more...special. In fact bike people in general can be like that.

I'll give you a funny example. I've been cycling for over 40 years, not a racer or super serious cyclist, but I've got some miles under my belt, always maintained my bikes, built up my current one from parts, never any issues so I guess I know what I'm doing. I also always wear a helmet when cycling, and probably owe my life to them as I've been in a couple of pretty bad accidents. But if I stop along the way to get a coffee or snack, anything longer than a bathroom break and such, and sit down, I always take off my helmet, because I think they look dorky if you're not riding a bike.

However, as you may have noticed, lots of cyclists don't do this, keeping them on even if they're having lunch for an hour. I never understood this. Did they just forget that they were wearing them? Do they like how they look on their heads? Do they think it's some sort of status symbol? Dunno. But it's still dorky looking. So I posted a clearly lighthearted question on a reddit cycling sub recently about this, and man did I get some absolutely angry and nasty responses. Like, eff you and your judgemental attitude, who are you to tell us how to wear our helmets, none of your business, you're an a-hole and I hope I never run into you, what's wrong with you, and the like. Point being, cyclists can be wound really, really tight, and not in a good way. One of the reasons I prefer to ride alone or with friends, never in a group.

And for the record, yes, wearing your helmet while sitting down to a meal is, objectively, dorky.

 

[BikeRider]

Please ask the guy on the bicycle forum 'what his reasons are' and 'does he have any data?'. Post his response back here. We could all use a good laugh.

See above comment by me. It's probably a bike culture thing. Also a this is what I've been told so I do as I've been told kind of thing. Myself, I prefer hard evidence to believe something. Call me a data-based reality nerd.

 

[cycle61]

I just don’t want to put my sweaty bike helmet on the table. lol.

 

[908Jim]

My opinion is that excessive use as a ratchet is like putting extra (partial) cycles on the wrench. A primary reason torque wrenches (and other mechanical instruments) need to be periodically checked for calibration is that normal use (cycles) causes wear surfaces to wear and change the characteristics of how they operate.

If you look at a click or split beam style wrench, I think we all agree that the ratchet head is binary in nature. It either ratchets or it malfunctions. The torque break mechanism still relies on mechanical interfaces that can be affected by wear so it can function normally, but the applied torque that causes the "click" can change. Partial application of torque still causes that mechanism to partially actuate and move.

Whether it actually matters in the real world I would debate. I would bet you're talking tens of thousands of cycles of partial actuations before it matters. Good industrial torque wrenches can still hold calibration after months of frequent daily use, but good quality systems require periodic operator test as a first line of defense.

I'm firmly in the camp of just using the right tool for the job to avoid any potential, albeit unlikely, problems. I always think to the saying just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Besides, my arm is only calibrated to ratchets, not long torque wrenches.

 

[BikeRider]

My opinion is that excessive use as a ratchet is like putting extra (partial) cycles on the wrench. A primary reason torque wrenches (and other mechanical instruments) need to be periodically checked for calibration is that normal use (cycles) causes wear surfaces to wear and change the characteristics of how they operate.

If you look at a click or split beam style wrench, I think we all agree that the ratchet head is binary in nature. It either ratchets or it malfunctions. The torque break mechanism still relies on mechanical interfaces that can be affected by wear so it can function normally, but the applied torque that causes the "click" can change. Partial application of torque still causes that mechanism to partially actuate and move.

Whether it actually matters in the real world I would debate. I would bet you're talking tens of thousands of cycles of partial actuations before it matters. Good industrial torque wrenches can still hold calibration after months of frequent daily use, but good quality systems require periodic operator test as a first line of defense.

I'm firmly in the camp of just using the right tool for the job to avoid any potential, albeit unlikely, problems. I always think to the saying just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Besides, my arm is only calibrated to ratchets, not long torque wrenches.

Valid points although of course only proper testing could determine if this is the case. But my question was never whether should you do this, but can you do this, without adverse consequences, especially if we're talking about occasional such uses simply because it's easier to use the tool at hand than walk across the room to get the "right" tool. I mean we've all used the "wrong" tool for some random task, like a screwdriver as a pry bar, chisel or pick, a combo wrench as a light hammer, a ratchet to break a fastener, etc. So long as it's just occasional, it's usually ok. But that guy in the bike sub was adamant that you must NEVER do this, which I just thought excessive, especially without test data to back it up.

 

[BikeRider]

I just don’t want to put my sweaty bike helmet on the table. lol.

I just put it upside down, on the floor or locked to my bike. Problem solved. My head is not a storage rack for my ugly and sweaty bike helmet, thank you. I think it makes people look like aliens with huge brains.

 

[dnschmidt]

Primary reason is size. Torque wrenches are much larger than normal ratchets. INTERESTING POINT: Many Asian (Taiwan made clickers) only snap over in the righty-tighty position. They can be used as breaker bars in the loosening direction on right handed bolts. They are obviously useless as torque wrenches on left handed bolts. I used a TOPTUL model for this purpose on a 6.0 Powerstroke as it was the longest 1/2" drive tool I had at 28 inches. and many of the engine bolts on these engines are torqued quite high. NO HARM NO FOUL. I wouldn't do that with a bidirectional wrench if it was set below where the bolt would loosen (and how do you know when that's going to happen). Once the wrench would snap over I'd stop if the wrench was bi-directional.

 

[Ricky Joe]

.

 

[BikeRider]

I agree with them. You are judgmental and don’t mind your own business. Somewhat narcissistic, too, as you never seem to have considered that they might be right.

In theory anyone can be right. In reality proof is required to be right. Judgemental? Narcissistic? Not minding my own business (not even sure what that means)? Or are you just gaslighting here? Perhaps they are right, but I need some proof, test data, or else it's just superstition. Of course it's best to err on the side of caution, but that doesn't make something right.

 

[rust in the eye]

The torque wrench part of the device doesn't know or care when the ratchet is doing its job below the the set threshold.
My understanding of the care for one is to fully unwind the spring tension when not in use. So if the spring is unwound during "ratcheting use" it will be constantly clicking, if you wind it up so it doesn't then you'll be simply using it below the threshold and will need to remember to unwind it. I don't see how your suggested use would hurt it but have to wonder why you'd want to.

 

[BikeRider]

The torque wrench part of the device doesn't know or care when the ratchet is doing its job below the the set threshold.
My understanding of the care for one is to fully unwind the spring tension when not in use. So if the spring is unwound during "ratcheting use" it will be constantly clicking, if you wind it up so it doesn't then you'll be simply using it below the threshold and will need to remember to unwind it. I don't see how your suggested use would hurt it but have to wonder why you'd want to.

The wanting to part is about having a ratcheting wrench right there instead of across the room, so why not use it since you're going to be using it for the final torquing down.

In reality I usually use an electric screwdriver, ratchet or impact wrench set to back-off mode (where it shuts off as soon as it encounters 10 ft-lb or so of resistance) to tighten a fastener most of the way, then a torque wrench to the correct spec.

But now and then when I'm just working on one or two fasteners, it's just easier to use the torque wrench for both.

But mostly it's just curiosity, and my natural skepticism whenever I encounter someone adamantly claiming something, because "expert", but without any hard proof to back it up.

It's like the old advice about never riding the clutch pedal, meaning pushing the pedal all the way in to fully disengage the clutch, for longer than it takes to shift. I never understood that and why it could harm anything. Perhaps in a cable-actuated clutch this would stretch out the cable prematurely, but in a modern hydraulic-actuated clutch that's designed to be used tens or hundreds of thousands of times, I don't see what could be harmed. Yet you keep hearing it. I actually used this as an example of yet another old saw that made no sense, and this person countered that it would totally burn out a clutch. But how? I just don't relate well to "Oh everyone knows" types of arguments, having an actual engineering background.

 

[rust in the eye]

You won't harm your torque wrench doing that.
I understand "riding" a clutch to be slipping it excessively. Pushing the pedal past the point of disengagement serves no purpose but does no harm. Holding the clutch pedal down for extended periods likewise does no harm to the clutch but does over work the throwout (release) bearing so should be avoided.

 

[RTM]

It is only detrimental if you are using it to work on a bike.

On automotive, or any other needed use, there is no reason to be concerned.

SMDH

 

[BikeRider]

You won't harm your torque wrench doing that.
I understand "riding" a clutch to be slipping it excessively. Pushing the pedal past the point of disengagement serves no purpose but does no harm. Holding the clutch pedal down for extended periods likewise does no harm to the clutch but does over work the throwout (release) bearing so should be avoided.

There's so much nonsense, superstition and misinformation on the internet that one could literally go insane trying to debunk even a tiny part of it, so I usually just move on whenever I come across it.

But sometimes, when I come across someone claiming to be some world expert on something, spouting something that just doesn't seem right and for which they don't and can't offer any proof, just "Oh I just know, I mean everyone knows", I just can't resist the urge to challenge them. And when they flip out and take it as a personal attack, it just confirms that they're full of it, because extreme defensiveness usually indicates knowing that you've been called on your nonsense and can't handle it. I get this sort of attitude with cycling types far more than with car types. People who really know what they're talking about will generally be far more calm, polite and patient in explaining why they're right and you're wrong.

And, yeah, that's what I mean, fully disengaging the clutch, not slipping it (which is actually fine and all but unavoidable in stop and go traffic as the RPM and loads aren't enough to meaningfully wear down the clutch plate or burnish the flywheel, but that's a whole other topic). Usually no reason to do it, but it's not really harmful, other than as you say the throwout bearing gets worn, but not to the clutch, hydraulics or cylinders. If I do rarely do it, it's because traffic conditions require it, e.g. disengaging the clutch to downshift when traffic slows, but then it speeds up again after I downshifted so I figure I'll wait another few seconds to see which gear I need to be in. I guess that I could double clutch and stay in neutral and accomplish the same thing, but I prefer to just keep the pedal down as I've never been much of a double clutcher, having learned to drive a stick on cars that didn't really require it being fully synchromeshed.

 

[BikeRider]

It is only detrimental if you are using it to work on a bike.

On automotive, or any other needed use, there is no reason to be concerned.

SMDH

How so? Lower torque settings on a bike, generally, but how is that relevant? Because the wrench is likely of a much lower range than typical car wrenches, in the in-lb rather than ft-lb range? But why would that matter since the ratcheting would be done at torque levels below the wrench's minimum setting?

 

[RTM]

How so? Lower torque settings on a bike, generally, but how is that relevant? Because the wrench is likely of a much lower range than typical car wrenches, in the in-lb rather than ft-lb range? But why would that matter since the ratcheting would be done at torque levels below the wrench's minimum setting?

Because bike people are gullible, and don’t recognize sarcasm when it is placed in front of them.

 

[BikeRider]

Because bike people are gullible, and don’t recognize sarcasm when it is placed in front of them.

Yeah if that was aimed at me then I'm not the world's greatest sarcasm detector especially online when it's dry.

I know, no **** sherlock and all that. But I generally don't use sarcasm with people unless we've already established a bit of a rapport. Can be seen as somewhat hostile and passive-aggressive and easily misread.

Plus the sub in question specifically forbids humor, jokes and sarcasm, I kid you not:

Stay on topic / No jokes

If your reply isn't about how to help OP, we don't want it. This is not the place for jokes, sarcasm, or obviously wrong answers. People reading this may not realize you thought you were being funny.

And, to belabor this, yes, bike people tend to take themselves WAY too seriously. It's recreation and exercise, and a way to be outdoors and with friends. That's IT and anything beyond that is mostly just pretension.

 

[BikeRider]

Posted in error, delete.

 

[dnschmidt]

I've explained all of this to you in post #22. Why is this tread continuing? You've got your answer now go away. Oh, I see you're from NYC. That explains a lot.

 

[FigN⋅m]

I think the main takeaway is: as long as you are correctly torqueing the fasteners to spec -
particularly on bikes with carbon bars, droppers, etc., it doesn't really matter how you get there.

Are you wearing down the wrench? Mathematically yeah, after 1000's of cycles it will eventually
drop in accuracy. But most TWs are re-calibratable and will last a quite a while if not abused.

 

[BikeRider]

So I guess that's it then, when you weigh in the discussion automatically ends!

 

[BikeRider]

I think the main takeaway is: as long as you are correctly torqueing the fasteners to spec -
particularly on bikes with carbon bars, droppers, etc., it doesn't really matter how you get there.

Are you wearing down the wrench? Mathematically yeah, after 1000's of cycles it will eventually
drop in accuracy. But most TWs are re-calibratable and will last a quite a while if not abused.

That's my sense too, but, as with those who believe the exact opposite, that it does wear it down meaningfully, it's just that, a sense, absent test data either way. And that was my original point with that person in that sub, that absent such proof, it's just a hunch or sense and nothing more and getting angry about it just seems silly. But pros generally don't like their judgement questioned by non-pros in public, even if the latter have a valid point, so I guess I should have seen that coming.

 

[mikedodge]

If you are working at a low torque setting like on a bike or tightening in phases like some engine work it makes sense to use a torque wrench as a ratchet because it's a waste of time to go back and forth between tools. It might not hurt it to use it from nothing for a job like putting on lug nuts but it might add wear on it overtime and it would be pretty tiring to use a clunky tool like that 20 times over.

 

[Sumboodie]

I am in the camp of dropping my ratchets 24/7, darn not a ton of room to work with, with that being said I would cringe at dropping an expensive tw on the cold hard cement, (my floor floods all the time) making things even worse, if you see what I mean.

If we dropped one when I was in the USAF it had to go to PMEL for recalibration.

Not sure if it really needed it, but that was the rules. Also had annual cal, some had 3 or 6 month cal as well.
I worked in munitions so it was stuff lives depended on and often attached to expensive planes.

 

[BikeRider]

If you are working at a low torque setting like on a bike or tightening in phases like some engine work it makes sense to use a torque wrench as a ratchet because it's a waste of time to go back and forth between tools. It might not hurt it to use it from nothing for a job like putting on lug nuts but it might add wear on it overtime and it would be pretty tiring to use a clunky tool like that 20 times over.

Yep, that's my sense. But as many have said there are other, different reasons to not use it this way, because it could get dropped or otherwise damaged, or can be unwieldy since they're usually longer than basic ratchets. I never use one on lug nuts or anything requiring that much torque, only on smaller fasteners.