Does using impact sockets in a impact gun

[WhyMe]

make a diffrence??? I was getting my lawn mower ready for the season and I needed to sharpen the blade.

My mower have a big center nut 24mm. i was lazy and grabbed a 12 point 24mm regular socket and installed it on my gun. I tried banging it off, but it would not move. tried it for a while with no joy.

So i decided to dig for my 24mm impact and try it. zipped it right off.

So why did the regular socket not work?

 

[Jure]

make a diffrence??? I was getting my lawn mower ready for the season and I needed to sharpen the blade.

My mower have a big center nut 24mm. i was lazy and grabbed a 12 point 24mm regular socket and installed it on my gun. I tried banging it off, but it would not move. tried it for a while with no joy.

So i decided to dig for my 24mm impact and try it. zipped it right off.

So why did the regular socket not work?

socket is socket,and both will work,but chrome one can snap pretty easy if used on impact.

 

[dmeadow]

make a diffrence??? I was getting my lawn mower ready for the season and I needed to sharpen the blade.

My mower have a big center nut 24mm. i was lazy and grabbed a 12 point 24mm regular socket and installed it on my gun. I tried banging it off, but it would not move. tried it for a while with no joy.

So i decided to dig for my 24mm impact and try it. zipped it right off.

So why did the regular socket not work?

Just a guess, but your 12 point socket was only "banging" on the corners of the nut, while your 6 point impact fit the nut tighter and hit the sides. Perhaps that transmitted more of the slapping action to the nut.

 

[MrMark]

what type thread was that bolt, left or right? Just curious as I have to sharpen a blade.

 

[R-C]

More torque was getting transferred not only because it was 6pt but because the impact sockets retain less heat then chrome and more energy is put into the fastener. Not to mention the impacts have more diameter and inertia.

All facters when air hammering.

 

[djb2]

More torque was getting transferred not only because it was 6pt but because the impact sockets retain less heat then chrome and more energy is put into the fastener. Not to mention the impacts have more diameter and inertia.

Huh?

Impact sockets retain less heat? What would the specific heat of the steel have to do with anything?

A physically tighter fit will put more impact energy into the fastener. A springy extension will reduce the impact, but a socket doesn't have enough flex/spring to make a difference.

If the impact socket heavier because it's thicker, with more mass at the circumference, that will actually reduce the impact, not enhance it.

 

[R-C]

Huh?

Impact sockets retain less heat? What would the specific heat of the steel have to do with anything?

A physically tighter fit will put more impact energy into the fastener. A springy extension will reduce the impact, but a socket doesn't have enough flex/spring to make a difference.

If the impact socket heavier because it's thicker, with more mass at the circumference, that will actually reduce the impact, not enhance it.

Energy that is turned into heat is energy not turning the bolt.

When you air hammer it's still hammering the bolt in the socket, sure there is enough to make a difference, the socket is still moving before the fastener, even if it's a very small amount.
Anything heavier, will be harder to stop.

 

[WhyMe]

what type thread was that bolt, left or right? Just curious as I have to sharpen a blade.

standard. not reverse threaded. i put a little loctite for insurance

 

[ddo]

Energy that is turned into heat is energy not turning the bolt.

When you air hammer it's still hammering the bolt in the socket, sure there is enough to make a difference, the socket is still moving before the fastener, even if it's a very small amount.
Anything heavier, will be harder to stop.

Anything heavier will also be harder to start.

If gun stopped and impact kicked in, the torque output is close to identical in both cases.

Thicker impact sockets have more mass and a greater ability to retain heat as a result. MCpdT type stuff there.

The gun provides the impact the socket does not. Socket barely moves.

My guess is...you loosened it with reg socket and finally broke free with impact socket.

 

[E.Marquez]

Impact sockets work better...
I would guess they transfer more shock to the fastener.. I'll let an engineer tell you how and why, I only know that there is a very observable , repeatable difference in transfer of shock and TQ when using impact sockets vs even good quality chrome ones.

Same with using any extension, but especially an impact one vs non impact one.

 

[Haveblue]

Most blades are right hand thread, but on some riding mowers with rear discharge, one blade will rotate the opposite direction, and have left hand thread.

 

[greasemonkey44]

your compressor finished filling while you dug out your 24mm socket

 

[3xpendable]

your compressor finished filling while you dug out your 24mm socket

I like this answer.

 

[Givl Reggin]

I like this answer.

x2

The rotational forced applied by the 12-point socket should have been slightly greater than the 6-point - provided the contact points are different and the 12-point's contact was closer to the corners of the nut.

 

[Steinmetz]

More torque was getting transferred not only because it was 6pt but because the impact sockets retain less heat then chrome and more energy is put into the fastener. Not to mention the impacts have more diameter and inertia.

All facters when air hammering.

This baffles me.

 

[Creditor]

your compressor finished filling while you dug out your 24mm socket

We have a winner!!!!

 

[Wakefield]

Was the 12 point slipping/rounding?
I think that is 15/16" so 24mm might be a little loose. (if on an old Tecumseh made Craftsman mower engine)
When I was a kid my 15/16" Craftsman-v- open end wrench always worked (but of course box end or socket is what you are supposed to use-don't remember what ft-lbs are specified for tightening but I have put one (with crankshaft buggered up some from running with the nut loose and adapter damaged from blade spinning on the crank (Type with a spline in the adapter locks with a notch on the crank) (neighbor used his pipe wrench to tighten the nut))-all the way up to 100 ft-lb.--this was the 15/16' nut on the male crank stub end-don't try this on a Briggs with a 9/16" (wrench size) blade bolt--I think that is about 40 ft-lb.
that Craftsman 15/16' by 1" double ended open end wrench looks dinky besides a Williams Supercombo 15/16' one !

 

[rlitman]

your compressor finished filling while you dug out your 24mm socket

That is probably it, but I'll bite on this actual question, and yes, an impact socket will impart more impact on a fastener than an ordinary socket.

It isn't a 6 point / 12 point issue. Is is an issue of springiness.

If you have seen a torque limiting socket/extension in use, you would understand that it works, by twisting along an intentionally thin section, which absorbs some of the force of an impact wrench. It wouldn't work with a static load, i.e. if the socket was turned by a breaker bar, but the elastic springing action of the torque limiting extension will eat up some of the peak hits of the impact wrench, limiting the peak torque delivered.

To some extent, the same thing visibly happens with an ordinary extension. You may notice that the impact gun is less powerful when driving a socket through an extension, vs without the extension.

Well, the same thing also happens in sockets. A chrome non-impact socket has pretty thin walls, and will twist just a little bit with each impact. Eventually it is that repeated twisting that leads to chrome flaking off the socket, but in the short term, the net effect is to reduce the amount of torque delivered by each hit from the impact wrench.

Impact sockets have thicker walls to resist the twisting, and so they will deliver more torque from an impact wrench (but no more torque from a breaker bar or ratchet, etc.).

Deep sockets will deliver less torque from an impact wrench than shallow too.

Now, how much will this effect make a difference in the real world? Not much at all, but perhaps this situation was just close enough to the boundary condition for it to matter.

 

[blown94conv]

The chrome socket is harder, and does not transfer the eneergy to the fastener, it converts it to heat, as the socket just bounces off the fastener. The softer impact socket transfer the energy to the fastener, and that's why they work better. There's a reason they sell impact sockets. It isn't just a big scam to make more money.

But on the safety portion, using chrome sockets on impact tools is a great way to bust them apart, at which point flying chrome pieces and socket debris will make you want to make sure you are wearing good safety glasses. Just saying.

 

[Zrexxer]

The chrome socket is harder, and does not transfer the eneergy to the fastener, it converts it to heat, as the socket just bounces off the fastener. The softer impact socket transfer the energy to the fastener, and that's why they work better. There's a reason they sell impact sockets. It isn't just a big scam to make more money.

Yes, there's a reason they sell impact sockets, but that isn't it.

The reason is that they're thicker and tempered to have greater toughness and be less brittle so that the impacting doesn't shatter them.

 

[rlitman]

The chrome socket is harder, and does not transfer the eneergy to the fastener, it converts it to heat, as the socket just bounces off the fastener. The softer impact socket transfer the energy to the fastener, and that's why they work better. There's a reason they sell impact sockets. It isn't just a big scam to make more money.

But on the safety portion, using chrome sockets on impact tools is a great way to bust them apart, at which point flying chrome pieces and socket debris will make you want to make sure you are wearing good safety glasses. Just saying.

Heat is not the issue. It is elasticity.

As I said, the chrome socket will twist more with each hit. That twist will absorb energy as a spring. Most of that energy will then be returned to the impact wrench's anvil as the spring flexes back. Some (although truth be told, very nearly none) of the energy will be lost as heat. But all of the energy absorbed as a spring will be energy that does not make it to the fastener, and that is all that matters.

NB, any energy lost to the socket as heat is proof that the socket has undergone plastic deformation, and is being damaged by the impact.

This is not the same heat experienced when a fastener gets hot from turning under pressure. That mostly comes from friction.

 

[Olafur]

Heat is not the issue. It is elasticity.

As I said, the chrome socket will twist more with each hit. That twist will absorb energy as a spring. Most of that energy will then be returned to the impact wrench's anvil as the spring flexes back. Some (although truth be told, very nearly none) of the energy will be lost as heat. But all of the energy absorbed as a spring will be energy that does not make it to the fastener, and that is all that matters.

NB, any energy lost to the socket as heat is proof that the socket has undergone plastic deformation, and is being damaged by the impact.

This is not the same heat experienced when a fastener gets hot from turning under pressure. That mostly comes from friction.

Well put.

 

[cgv69]

impact sockets retain less heat then chrome

That's not true, just the opposite actually. Impact sockets, due to their additional mass will heat up slower then thinner chrome sockets but the thinner socket will also dissipate that heat quicker.

Don't take my word for it, test it out yourself. Take 2 similar size sockets, one impact and one standard chrome and put them in your oven and bring the temp up to 200deg then take them out. See which one you can hold first.

Either way, I doubt heat had anything to do with what the OP experienced anyway.

 

[RCStocker]

x2

The rotational forced applied by the 12-point socket should have been slightly greater than the 6-point - provided the contact points are different and the 12-point's contact was closer to the corners of the nut.

The farther from the center of the bold center you are the more torque or force is applied. Therefore the most force the socket can give is on the corners.
The Impact socket is harder but the standard socket is not so soft that it gives enough to make any differnce. You would need a computer to caculate the difference becasue you can't do it any other way is so minimal.

You just broke it loose with the regular socket and you just think the impact made the difference. LOL You already had it loose. Had you hit it one more time with the standard socket is would have bronke loose. the 12 point would have been putting the force on the corner which is the farthest distaance form the center of the bold. Your compressor might have built up more PSI and given more force.

 

[E.Marquez]

The farther from the center of the bold center you are the more torque or force is applied. Therefore the most force the socket can give is on the corners.
The Impact socket is harder but the standard socket is not so soft that it gives enough to make any differnce. You would need a computer to caculate the difference becasue you can't do it any other way is so minimal.

You just broke it loose with the regular socket and you just think the impact made the difference. LOL You already had it loose. Had you hit it one more time with the standard socket is would have bronke loose. the 12 point would have been putting the force on the corner which is the farthest distaance form the center of the bold. Your compressor might have built up more PSI and given more force.

Nice theory, but reality and practical experience demonstrates otherwise.

 

[fsdogwood]

what type thread was that bolt, left or right? Just curious as I have to sharpen a blade.

Mine is the "lefty loosy" one, so when the mower runs, the bolt got tightened up

 

[Givl Reggin]

The farther from the center the less rotational mass is required. Remember give me a lever long enough and I can move the world!

Physics is physics, while your real-world experiences may seem otherwise, in this universe the physics are the same everywhere.

Reminds me of the plane taking off on a conveyor problem... I just don't understand why so many people get that wrong.

 

[sqaurelizard]

impact sockets definitely work better to loosen bolts at the limit of an airgun have seen it over and over with crank bolts were I would tend to grab a shallow non impact socket first as it closest and the deep impact won't fit. Followed by the bolt on loosening, step b get shallow impact and hey presto bolt undone. Its certainly a repeatable phenomenon

 

[Kevin54]

Look at the lead on the socket itself. Some sockets will have more of a lead at the edge than other sockets. If you have a really huge lead you may want to remove some of it.

 

[t4runner]

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor from William of Ockham, and in Latin lex parsimoniae) is a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness used in logic and problem-solving. It states that among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected.

 

[lwlobo]

Heat is not the issue. It is elasticity.

As I said, the chrome socket will twist more with each hit. That twist will absorb energy as a spring. Most of that energy will then be returned to the impact wrench's anvil as the spring flexes back. Some (although truth be told, very nearly none) of the energy will be lost as heat. But all of the energy absorbed as a spring will be energy that does not make it to the fastener, and that is all that matters.

This is basically the correct answer, although the correct name is stiffness. The steel in both the hardened chrome socket and the softer impact socket have basically the same modulus of elasticity, but the impact socket is thicker, and therefore stiffer.

With the stiffer socket, more of the energy is transered to the bolt instead of deforming the socket, and out comes the fastener.

Just like trying to pound in a nail in an unsupported board vs. a board that's laying on concrete or is fully supported.

 

[Kracin]

Heat is not the issue. It is elasticity.

As I said, the chrome socket will twist more with each hit. That twist will absorb energy as a spring. Most of that energy will then be returned to the impact wrench's anvil as the spring flexes back. Some (although truth be told, very nearly none) of the energy will be lost as heat. But all of the energy absorbed as a spring will be energy that does not make it to the fastener, and that is all that matters.

NB, any energy lost to the socket as heat is proof that the socket has undergone plastic deformation, and is being damaged by the impact.

This is not the same heat experienced when a fastener gets hot from turning under pressure. That mostly comes from friction.

thank god somebody said it, well put. also to add a greater contact area prevents the fastener from deforming and causing a loss of torque as well.

you could see what the quote meant in action if you have ever had to use a piece of stock to punch something through. typically the greater the size of the punch, the more force you can transmit through it, because you may not see it, but it flexes, bends, and mushrooms with every hit, the larger the area and stronger the piece, the less you get those little flexes that absorb the impact

 

[andywander]

The chrome socket is harder, and does not transfer the eneergy to the fastener, it converts it to heat, as the socket just bounces off the fastener. The softer impact socket transfer the energy to the fastener, and that's why they work better. There's a reason they sell impact sockets. It isn't just a big scam to make more money.

But on the safety portion, using chrome sockets on impact tools is a great way to bust them apart, at which point flying chrome pieces and socket debris will make you want to make sure you are wearing good safety glasses. Just saying.

Bouncing off will actually impart MORE energy to the fastener.

If the socket does not bounce off, but stays in contact with the fastener, then the fastener(until it moves) is absorbing all of the energy that was moving the socket forward.

If the socket DOES not bounce off the fastener, then the fastener is absorbing all of the energy that was moving the socket forward, PLUS it is putting some energy back into the socket in the reverse direction-The energy to move the socket backwards has to come from somewhere-it comes from the fastener..

Just like throwing either a lump of clay, or a rubber ball, both the same weight, at a wall. The clay sticks to the wall, and stops there, but the ball bounces back....and the bouncing ball imparts more energy to the wall....

 

[andywander]

That's not true, just the opposite actually. Impact sockets, due to their additional mass will heat up slower then thinner chrome sockets but the thinner socket will also dissipate that heat quicker.

Don't take my word for it, test it out yourself. Take 2 similar size sockets, one impact and one standard chrome and put them in your oven and bring the temp up to 200deg then take them out. See which one you can hold first.

Either way, I doubt heat had anything to do with what the OP experienced anyway.

Heating 2 objects of different mass to the same temperature and seeing which cools more quickly is not relevant here.

If you put the same AMOUNT of heat into both, the more massive object would not get to as high a temperature.

But what we don't know is if more heat is generated by either of the sockets....

 

[andywander]

The farther from the center of the bold center you are the more torque or force is applied. Therefore the most force the socket can give is on the corners.
The Impact socket is harder but the standard socket is not so soft that it gives enough to make any differnce. You would need a computer to caculate the difference becasue you can't do it any other way is so minimal.

You just broke it loose with the regular socket and you just think the impact made the difference. LOL You already had it loose. Had you hit it one more time with the standard socket is would have bronke loose. the 12 point would have been putting the force on the corner which is the farthest distaance form the center of the bold. Your compressor might have built up more PSI and given more force.

The impact socket is NOT harder-it is softer, so that is more resistant to shattering.

 

[WhyMe]

thanks for all the replies.

I was watching the socket to see if it was turning the nut. It was not. I let my compressor pump up a few times to be sure it was getting full air. Still no movement.

popped the impact on it and zip it was over.

 

[Oldbear]

what type thread was that bolt, left or right? Just curious as I have to sharpen a blade.

Opposite of the direction your blade spins.

 

[Coach James]

That's not true, just the opposite actually. Impact sockets, due to their additional mass will heat up slower then thinner chrome sockets but the thinner socket will also dissipate that heat quicker.

Don't take my word for it, test it out yourself. Take 2 similar size sockets, one impact and one standard chrome and put them in your oven and bring the temp up to 200deg then take them out. See which one you can hold first.

Either way, I doubt heat had anything to do with what the OP experienced anyway.

Wouldn't the thermal conductivity, surface area and specific heat of the metals also be a factor in which one would cool faster?

Coach

 

[oldtools808]

1st socket probably loosened the rust in the threads & if he didn't have full air pressure the first time, full pressure was enough to break the bond on the threads.
Impact sockets should be used for safety as they are designed for impact loads..

 

[Danglerb]

Impact can be looked at three simple ways; energy, momentum, and the type of collision. Energy and momentum are conserved, which means energy in equals energy out, with some of the energy being force x distance, and some heat. Momentum is velocity x mass, and it all goes to the items in the system, no waste like heat, but type of collision decides how much goes in the target and how much goes in the source.

Type of collision is what I think matters with an impact. The technical terms are elastic and inelastic. Elastic is like a dead blow hammer, no recoil. Inelastic is like a billiard ball where the impact is sharp, and the momentary force is very high. Remember that energy thing, E = Force x distance? if the force is applied over a VERY short distance, the force is MUCH higher, Force = Energy/distance. Any motion between the anvil and the fastener wastes force.