Double breaker circuit - no openings left on main panel

[rpcraft]

Hi everyone. I have a situation where the breaker panel is full and when my house was built the electrician was told to run two 220 outlets in my garage.
They ran one of my 220 outlets as a single breaker and set it up as a 120 socket because I guess he misunderstood why I was requesting at the time. he thought I was putting in a window unit and thought it would more than likely run only 110, but he was smart enough to place it on the 220 rated conductor. When I asked the builder about it he said that he talked to the electrician and that they said the wiring is there and if I need to swap to 220 simply change out the breaker and plug, connect the other hot on both ends. I double checked and it appears the wiring is a proper 220 rated wire and all 4 conductors are there, he just left a wire nut on one of the disconnected leg in the outlet and the panel so that leads me to the breaker question. Since all the panel openings are full there is no way to place the second breaker. I noticed one breaker slot already has a 1 inch thin Double 20 on it.

Is it possible to use another one of the 1 inch Double 20 breakers on this line or would I be better moving one of the house circuits, like the bedrooms, to the double 20 and then use both full size breakers for the 220 circuit? I am probably going to be running an air compressor on the line that is a 220v with 15 to 16 amp load rating (not sure if that is startup or continuous but I suspect it is 16 at start and then it drops some).

Also, the panel is a 200 amp panel, and I know that other circuits in the house will draw amps when in use, but most of the time when I am using the compressor I'll be in the garage and the only things that will run are going to be the AC or Heat, and everything else will mostly be on standby or not running. It's just me in the house so no wife and kids to worry about. Should I be worried about panel overload?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Need more details.

What bramd of panel?

Do you have any pics?

Whats the HP rating on the compressor?

 

[rpcraft]

I think its Siemens panel and breakers, not sure overall, will look tomorrow. HP rating is 3.7.

What is too much to handle? The power load? Not sure what you mean?

 

[matt_i]

The thin tandem breakers don't go across L1 and L2 to give you 240vac. They are pulling from the same bus bar.

One can potentially reorganize the panel to swap a couple 120vac circuits over to the thin tandems and in the process open up 2 adjoining slots so a traditional dual breaker can go in for 240vac.

From there I would get yourself setup to run a subpanel in your garage/shop. 50A-60A is probably a good place to start. Then you can put in other circuits without being restricted by your main panel.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The thin tandem breakers don't go across L1 and L2 to give you 240vac. They are pulling from the same bus bar.

Some manufacturers DO have tandem 240V breakers. Very strange looking.

 

[rpcraft]

There is already a couple of 240 volt breakers setup on one side of the box, for the AC, Stove, and then another for my Welder. The welding circuit does have a 50 amp breaker on each leg while the other's are lower amperage.

Should I be worried that my 240 is not going to be setup correctly now?

Also all the breakers appear to be Square D so I am assuming the panel is as well.

This is the best picture I can offer at the moment and later can pop the cover off for more brand info and wire setup.

 

[rpcraft]

Matt_i -

I just realized what you meant by what you said. I got a late start with the thinking cap today.

Right now the circuit in question is the lowest one on the left, which is slot 29 on the panel. It looks like I could take my bathroom circuits (Sorry, I was saying bedrooms and meant bathrooms.) on 27 and 25 and then change 25 to a double/single 20 AMP and move them there, then use 27 and 29 to power the 220. and bump it up to a 30 Amp double breaker since the wiring is already the 220V rated wiring.

 

[Sevenhills1952]

Why not simply install another 200 amp Siemens panel box beside that one. Then jumper the two together...main line in. Then you'd have more than enough space for other breakers. $114 at Home Depot.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens...gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CKHSj4-sot0CFdltwQodsjwPPQ

 

[rpcraft]

If that is your version of simple I don't want to get complicated, lol

 

[pgray007]

I had the same issue (and what looks like the same panel). Get a couple of the narrow double breakers and consolidate some of your 120V circuits and make room for your 240. Easy peasy and other than the Square D tandems requiring a trip to the supply house or waiting on the big brown truck since they’re generally not available at the box stores, it’s a 10-30 min job. Note that there are 2 styles of Square D panels and the breakers are generally NOT interchangeable.

The usual caveats about not working on electrical if you don’t know what you’re doing apply of course as there be dragons inside the panel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ishiboo]

Matt_i -

I just realized what you meant by what you said. I got a late start with the thinking cap today.

Right now the circuit in question is the lowest one on the left, which is slot 29 on the panel. It looks like I could take my bathroom circuits (Sorry, I was saying bedrooms and meant bathrooms.) on 27 and 25 and then change 25 to a double/single 20 AMP and move them there, then use 27 and 29 to power the 220. and bump it up to a 30 Amp double breaker since the wiring is already the 220V rated wiring.

First off, your house is 240v not 220v. Second, wire is not rated for 240v or 120v. What you have on both 240v and 120v circuits is probably all rated for 600v.

You cannot just put a 30A breaker on UNLESS it is #10 or larger wire. Since the electrician thought it was for a window unit, it's very possible it is only #12.

But yes, you should be able to put those two on a tandem and that'll give you another spot. The only way this wouldn't be code is if that panel has no tandem spots AND someone installed a non-CTL tandem on that bottom right... but I doubt that.

I had the same issue (and what looks like the same panel). Get a couple of the narrow double breakers and consolidate some of your 120V circuits and make room for your 240. Easy peasy and other than the Square D tandems requiring a trip to the supply house or waiting on the big brown truck since they’re generally not available at the box stores, it’s a 10-30 min job. Note that there are 2 styles of Square D panels and the breakers are generally NOT interchangeable.

The usual caveats about not working on electrical if you don’t know what you’re doing apply of course as there be dragons inside the panel.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Square D tandems (both QO and Homeline) are available in every big box store ive ever been in.

 

[Sevenhills1952]

If that is your version of simple I don't want to get complicated, lol

I've seen houses that have 4, 5 boxes, 800, 1000 amp service.
I was thinking for the money it would be simple because it looks like you now have 640 amp worth of breakers in a 200 amp box.

 

[rpcraft]

First off, your house is 240v not 220v. Second, wire is not rated for 240v or 120v. What you have on both 240v and 120v circuits is probably all rated for 600v.

You cannot just put a 30A breaker on UNLESS it is #10 or larger wire. Since the electrician thought it was for a window unit, it's very possible it is only #12.
.

I know that this outlet in particular does have a 4 conductor line with an orange protective sheath on it but I am not able to ascertain its gauge because I do not know thickness by eye site and too much is cut off of the sheathing to read and there appears to be nothing on the wires. I'm also trying to avoid disconnecting much (also trying not to kill myself, lol).

Will #10 wire connect to a 120 plug normally? If not then that probably answers my question as to what it is and to be fair I can probably just as easily run the double 20 on this circuit and be fine so long as I stay under 4 horsepower on the compressor.

In the picture it doesn't really look any larger thicker than the wires from the other 120 circuits, but when I had the cover off I do believe it is the same wire that is running to the other double 30 amp breakers such as the water heater and etc, but I will have to pop the panel off again and double check that.

 

[rpcraft]

 

[ishiboo]

I know that this outlet in particular does have a 4 conductor line with an orange protective sheath on it but I am not able to ascertain its gauge because I do not know thickness by eye site and too much is cut off of the sheathing to read and there appears to be nothing on the wires. I'm also trying to avoid disconnecting much (also trying not to kill myself, lol).

Will #10 wire connect to a 120 plug normally? If not then that probably answers my question as to what it is and to be fair I can probably just as easily run the double 20 on this circuit and be fine so long as I stay under 4 horsepower on the compressor.

In the picture it doesn't really look any larger thicker than the wires from the other 120 circuits, but when I had the cover off I do believe it is the same wire that is running to the other double 30 amp breakers such as the water heater and etc, but I will have to pop the panel off again and double check that.

Orange is #10, yellow #12, and white #14 in modern times.

 

[rpcraft]

OK, that gives me comfort at least the wiring is correct there.