Double flare mini-split line set?

[DrVlikhell]

I'm finally getting around to where I can actually install one of these mini-splits, unpacked the line set today and found that the ends are double flared from the factory. I had been planning to re-flare them myself because of all the reports of sub-par factory flares, but now I'm wondering if I should leave these? And, if/when I need to shorten a line set and make a new flare on the cut end, should I double flare it, or just do a regular single flare?

I tried searching the interwebs but there are hardly any people talking about doing double flares for HVAC. I was about to order an eccentric flaring tool, but those don't work for double flares, and I really don't need two tools for something I'm likely (hopefully) to never do again. Any thoughts or suggestions on this?

 

[justinjoyal]

I've never seen a double flare on a mini-split.

What brand is it ?

 

[pcmeiners]

A double flare's main purposes is use with higher pressures and for repeated reuse. I would not attempt to redo or replace the flares unless damaged.

 

[PoorUB]

I can't say I ever have seen double flare line sets. It is probably a good idea, but I wonder about the ability to double flare copper. Some of it is pretty crappy.

 

[DrVlikhell]

I've never seen a double flare on a mini-split.

What brand is it ?

They're Pioneers, bought directly from Pioneer in Miami.

I can't say I ever have seen double flare line sets. It is probably a good idea, but I wonder about the ability to double flare copper. Some of it is pretty crappy.

These double flares look fine, I think. Funny thing is, the Pioneer Diamante 18k unit has regular single flares on it's included line set, while the smaller Pioneer Inverter+ units came with the double flare line sets. Here are some pics of the different flares.

 

[chinboys]

I am going for my HVAC-R certification by June of 2024 and think it is prudent to have a double flare if the manufacturer calls for it but a properly made single flare will also work.

The biggest mistake is not using the right hardness (type L) of ACR copper pipe or tubing which is measured at the outside diameter unlike that of copper that is used for water or air.
And making a proper flare (not overworking it to work harden it) (eccentric cone flare maker from Yellow Jacket) using refrigerant oil during the forming process in addition to a properly sized flare nut with oil again added to the top of the flare (where the nut's inside flare rubs on).
Lastly, the right amount of torque (use a torque wrench)as recommended by the manufacturer, will ensure leak-free flare connections.

The class and I have made hundreds of these connections and have tested them at over 500 PSI.

 

[DrVlikhell]

I emailed Pioneer about it, but since it's the weekend I haven't heard anything back yet.

I am going for my HVAC-R certification by June of 2024 and think it is prudent to have a double flare if the manufacturer calls for it but a properly made single flare will also work.

The biggest mistake is not using the right hardness (type L) of ACR copper pipe or tubing which is measured at the outside diameter unlike that of copper that is used for water or air.
And making a proper flare (not overworking it to work harden it) (eccentric cone flare maker from Yellow Jacket) using refrigerant oil during the forming process in addition to a properly sized flare nut with oil again added to the top of the flare (where the nut's inside flare rubs on).
Lastly, the right amount of torque (use a torque wrench)as recommended by the manufacturer, will ensure leak-free flare connections.

The class and I have made hundreds of these connections and have tested them at over 500 PSI.

What you describe is exactly what I had planned to do. Except I was going to get a knockoff of the eccentric flare tool since a Yellow Jacket is too pricey to use just once.

 

[pcmeiners]

"I can't say I ever have seen double flare line sets. It is probably a good idea, but I wonder about the ability to double flare copper. Some of it is pretty crappy."

Just finishing my 5th mini at my home. I ordered European linesets adhering to multiple standards. Much better copper than other lineset I purchase from USA suppliers. I noticed while cutting tubing the copper hardness around some tubing from US suppliers is not even around the circumference of the tubing. Would not doubt most of the linesets are coming from the China mainland or 3rd world countries manufactured with poor grade copper and machinery.

Flaretite flare seals....cheap sealing insurance for standard lineset flares. I tested Flaretites at 1/2 and 1/3 the recommended torque settings, leak free at 500psi and 200 microns vacuum. Basically fool proof sealing. Yes, I too can do fool proof sealing without flaretites, but can you guarantee them 10 years down the road, due to vibration or unit movement?

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Rectorseal-97216-1-4-and-3-8-Flaretite-Seals-2-Pairs?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=shopping_neutral&utm_campaign=Shopping_Neutral_New_users&gclid=Cj0KCQiAr8eqBhD3ARIsAIe-buOhJ6YrHBCis0WJZSlZ4c4DKdFeCjeYXaoKjxwDnpY41npu0FRObrwaApL9EALw_wcB

 

[DrVlikhell]

Yeah I'm positive that the line sets were made in China, along with the rest of the mini split components.

Pioneer responded today and said they provide double flares to improve the connection at the sealing points, but that if a re-flare is needed, a single flare is adequate as long as it passes a pressure test.

I had looked at Flaretite and FlareSeal stuff, but they seem very expensive for what they are, especially when a guy needs four sets. I wish they had a multipack or something. Also not sure if they will work on a double flare?

I'm thinking I'll just leave the double flares alone and instead of cutting to length, just coil up the extra in the crawl space under the house. Or maybe attempt to make new double flares in copper? I'm not sure. If only 410a was cheap like 134a I wouldn't worry so much. A mistake with sealing a 134a system costs me 20 or 30 bucks, not 100 or 150. And I have three chances to make a mistake.

 

[jjrbus]

Yeah I'm positive that the line sets were made in China, along with the rest of the mini split components.

Pioneer responded today and said they provide double flares to improve the connection at the sealing points, but that if a re-flare is needed, a single flare is adequate as long as it passes a pressure test.

I had looked at Flaretite and FlareSeal stuff, but they seem very expensive for what they are, especially when a guy needs four sets. I wish they had a multipack or something. Also not sure if they will work on a double flare?

I'm thinking I'll just leave the double flares alone and instead of cutting to length, just coil up the extra in the crawl space under the house. Or maybe attempt to make new double flares in copper? I'm not sure. If only 410a was cheap like 134a I wouldn't worry so much. A mistake with sealing a 134a system costs me 20 or 30 bucks, not 100 or 150. And I have three chances to make a mistake.

Not an AC tech, upright coils look like an oil trap. If wanting to coil I would feel better with horizontal coils. I put excess lineset in a serpentine fashion behind condenser.

 

[chinboys]

I emailed Pioneer about it, but since it's the weekend I haven't heard anything back yet.


What you describe is exactly what I had planned to do. Except I was going to get a knockoff of the eccentric flare tool since a Yellow Jacket is too pricey to use just once.

make friends with a community tech college or an HVAC-R trade school or an HVAC-R tech who can loan you the right tool.
or buy the right tool, use it, and then sell it for a slight loss.

other brands of flaring tools are good enough too.
the key is having the right ACR tubing and not working to harden the flare when you form it.
the right flare nut and use of compressor oil when torquing it too.

btw, double flares are used on high-pressure lines such as hydraulics.
you will or should not, never exceed 500 psi on your unit's high side liquid line which is adequate under a properly made and tighten flare nut connection.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I just looked at a Pioner minipslit installation manual. There's no mention of double flares. IDK if it's the same for all their models.

 

[danski0224]

Over the years, I am not personally aware of anyone trusting OEM lineset flares on a job that is performed for real money. They have always been cut off and redone.

Do note that the inside and outside of the tubing needs to be de-burred before flaring.