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Hobby_Man22
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They left that part out. I thought my tax dollars paid for that.
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Drainage plans
- Thread starter Hobby_Man22
- Start date
rburke65
Well-known member
I have 5.37 acres…lot is 180’x 1400’ deep. Shop is ..?..1800 sq. ft. I couldn’t be a building permit until I got a down spout permit. The D spout permit was dependent on what and where I planned to do with the rain off my roof. Gutters, down spouts and drain pipe were to be run to a stream, Doran ditch, a pond….somewhere, of which I had none so the Sanitary and Water District Department required me to dig a dry well to catch all the rain water. I thought it was ridiculous as I’m sitting on 5+ acres. The inspector was real early and when he say the build site said to just run the drain pipe into the woods. Saved me some money.
Depends on what is required -- that's why ideally you ask the code official if they can show you one. Permits are public -- they normally will grab one and show you what they are looking for.They left that part out. I thought my tax dollars paid for that.
Some towns give you one "meeting" .... after that you pay. It always best to find out what is needed and then you ask the professional what they recommend including. You don't do a permit and not include future things that may be done and can be included -- to do things later forces you to do it all again and there is always a risk that things change and there is more to do the next time
You were lucky ...I have 5.37 acres…lot is 180’x 1400’ deep. Shop is ..?..1800 sq. ft. I couldn’t be a building permit until I got a down spout permit. The D spout permit was dependent on what and where I planned to do with the rain off my roof. Gutters, down spouts and drain pipe were to be run to a stream, Doran ditch, a pond….somewhere, of which I had none so the Sanitary and Water District Department required me to dig a dry well to catch all the rain water. I thought it was ridiculous as I’m sitting on 5+ acres. The inspector was real early and when he say the build site said to just run the drain pipe into the woods. Saved me some money.
In many areas there are other government agencies that have to sign off --- have had to deal with a county conservation district. In addition -- any stream that may take water has to be noted -- not even on your property. Wetlands --- seems everything is a wetland today!
That's why today you want to just get it all done at once .... it was always cheaper to fully permit a parcel of land when you purchase it. Today -- it's not only the cost ..... it's preserving what's possible today. It's not going to be easier in the future. If you permit the largest building sf and a big septic ... it's there. You can always build smaller ... and if you never build the permits make the lot more valuable if new rules make what you have approved ..NLA
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
You can't just pull a permit then not do anything for 15 years. They require work to start within a certain period of time.You were lucky ...
In many areas there are other government agencies that have to sign off --- have had to deal with a county conservation district. In addition -- any stream that may take water has to be noted -- not even on your property. Wetlands --- seems everything is a wetland today!
That's why today you want to just get it all done at once .... it was always cheaper to fully permit a parcel of land when you purchase it. Today -- it's not only the cost ..... it's preserving what's possible today. It's not going to be easier in the future. If you permit the largest building sf and a big septic ... it's there. You can always build smaller ... and if you never build the permits make the lot more valuable if new rules make what you have approved ..NLA
Yes, they have a say. Trust me -- they have a say and it is much better if they are an engineer as you have to prove them wrong if they don't agree. They will not be an engineer.
Having to pay a professional to prove that a code official is not correct is sadly all too common. Again -- it all depends on how much the want.
Also: For my last project -- just as projects prior I had to put 5k in escrow for the town. They uses this money to review you plans and make site visits. The basic permit cost is only for precessing .... they actual review is done by the town engineer and attorney on your dime from the escrow.
Wow, that's crazy. Our permits, at least for an accessory building are calculated based on estimated project value. Mine came out to ~$500. No extra fees for inspections etc.
But yeah, in a lot of jurisdictions the inspector can request revisions even if the work is done according to the approved plan. And like everything, there are inspectors that are good at their jobs and ones that aren't. A friend had been doing some work in their house and one inspector told them he had to do X, Y, and Z. So they did that, second inspector came in and told them that all that was unnecessary.
Mine so far has been very reasonable. Came out for the excavation inspector prior to pour. Looked around a bit, took one or two measurements. Depth of foundation and width of footings. Asked to see the plans. That was it. He was gone in less than 10 minutes. Still haven't done final inspection yet because I'm still waiting on my garage doors and wasn't able to do final grading before everything froze
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
Its the same way here. Permit cost based on cost of project and as far as hiring an engineer the building company does that and I have to hire an engineer for the foundation and dirt work.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
They also wanted the electrical permit at the same time too.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
This is where I was worried about them noticing the second unpermitted electrical panel and the hvac system that was installed that's all right next to the electric meter. I think the building inspector does everything in my town. He wears all the hats.
The OP is dealing with land use permits and they can have a lot of "engineering" in them. It's all a happy group -- the town engineer and attorney. Then the guys you have to hire .... everybody knows everybody else. Nobody makes money if everything is smooth.Wow, that's crazy. Our permits, at least for an accessory building are calculated based on estimated project value. Mine came out to ~$500. No extra fees for inspections etc.
But yeah, in a lot of jurisdictions the inspector can request revisions even if the work is done according to the approved plan. And like everything, there are inspectors that are good at their jobs and ones that aren't. A friend had been doing some work in their house and one inspector told them he had to do X, Y, and Z. So they did that, second inspector came in and told them that all that was unnecessary.
Mine so far has been very reasonable. Came out for the excavation inspector prior to pour. Looked around a bit, took one or two measurements. Depth of foundation and width of footings. Asked to see the plans. That was it. He was gone in less than 10 minutes. Still haven't done final inspection yet because I'm still waiting on my garage doors and wasn't able to do final grading before everything froze
Once you get past the land use and design review boards .... maybe the historic review boards --- the actual building permits are easy and straight forward.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
I talked to my engineer. He said to just grade the lot to drain to the private road that goes to the main road. He said that's ridiculous to grade it so it goes 400ft to the main city road.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
He said it wouldn't really cost much to do that. Maybe a grand.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
I don't think that's fair that I have to drain to the main rd and all the neighbors get to drain into the private road?
FredWanaker
Well-known member
sounds like a discussion to have with the neighbors and the inspector.
racecougar
Well-known member
Life isn't fair.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
My engineer doesn't seem to think it's an issue just draining to the little private easement ditch.Life isn't fair.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
What are the chances of the engineer overruling the inspector and having him be okay with having the drainage plan go out to the little private dirt easement vs 400ft to the main road?Most places require a professional…like a civil engineer to do the plan…and more importantry, sign a letter that the drainage was done correctly and conforms to the plan. Usually, local jurisdictions have drainage rules/ordinances that are to protect neighboring property and stream/roads.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
The city does, it's just not up to their standards and specifications. IE dirt and the drainage ditch isn't up to their standard either.Who owns the private road? If someone other than you, there is your answer. Most places will not let you run water off onto someone else's property.
I doubt the engineer will have any pull with the inspector.
Then it isn't a private road! It is a public road, owned by the city! Where did the "private road" terminology come from?The city does, it's just not up to their standards and specifications. IE dirt and the drainage ditch isn't up to their standard either.
I would think you should be able to drain to it, but if the inspector says no, the answer is no.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
I don't think he realized it has a drainage ditch on each side or at the very minimum a swale. It kind of starts as a swale and then turns more into a ditch as it gets closer to the main road. I think the way it's worded is private road owned by the city but not maintained by them.Then it isn't a private road! It is a public road, owned by the city! Where did the "private road" terminology come from?
I would think you should be able to drain to it, but if the inspector says no, the answer is no.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
The current building drains to the private dirt road... I just wasn't going to get into a ******* match right off the bat with the building inspector.
I have seen it commonly done around here when a new building goes up. All the black dirt is pushed off, and often hauled away and eventually sold. The soil underneath is pushed around and often pushed to where the building is intended, compacted, then gravel put in for the slab, then the lot is "leveled" usually graded one direction or another, then black dirt brought back for the landscaping.
I remember one fiend of mine that built a building. He got in a ******* match with the general contractor because they wanted to charge him for extra top soil brought back on the site. He got pissy with them and asked whet they did with the 18" of top soil that covered the whole lot they hauled out?They haul out 18" and bring back 4" to 6"!!
The excavating company uses it to lower their bid slightly, knowing they can sell of the top soil.
I remember one fiend of mine that built a building. He got in a ******* match with the general contractor because they wanted to charge him for extra top soil brought back on the site. He got pissy with them and asked whet they did with the 18" of top soil that covered the whole lot they hauled out?They haul out 18" and bring back 4" to 6"!!
The excavating company uses it to lower their bid slightly, knowing they can sell of the top soil.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
That's my question. When they say grading does that mean my entire 2acre lot needs the grass stripped away and dirt put in its place over top?
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
Wonder what that would cost. That's the main question. He was adamant about it draining to the main city road. I guess because the property touches the main road.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
I get that but drawing it on paper and making it do that are two different things.It's not rocket science. The city just wants to know where the water will go. You can't drain through someone else's property so if your property doesn't touch the side road it has to go to the main road.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
Well there are numerous ways to do it is how he explained it. The question is what does it cost?Google drainage plans for your drawing. If you are planning gutters, just trench a drain to the main road. Check with your city this may be all they want.
Do you have a college or tech school with a architectural program? They might do it for free, or find and architect and ask him how much.Well there are numerous ways to do it is how he explained it. The question is what does it cost?
He have no idea what is available in your area and what they charge.
FredWanaker
Well-known member
over 400' the drop to the road needs to be about 8 1/2 ' to get a quarter bubble drainage over that 400'. 1/4" is 1/48th foot. 400 \ 48 = 8.33 feet. If you don't have the height from the back of the lot to the front then that is an issue. Generally slope on land should be 2% on grass and weeds, or 1% minimum on paved surfaces. 2% is 8 feet of 400. If your land has this slope dig a ditch or put in a drain pipe, If the land is dirt and there are no wires or gas lines etc., a ditch witch could do it in a couple hours.
You keep thinking of "drainage" .... as a physical thing. Like -- "where is my drain going". A drainage plan is a topographical plan of the property. It not a "drain" .... and this is my plan .. for the drain
The plan shows what it current now .... what will be built and how that new building will change the water on the property. Often you have to do one after to prove you did what you said you were going to do -- the "as built" plan.
So while the "drainage plan" does indeed show how water will and will not move on the property it is much more than that ... what you need to find out is what they want on the plan.
Most areas now use the "plan" to show if you need others. Like a soil disturbance plan or a water management plan.
In my area the disturbance plan is the one that kicks in the others ... it's only 1ksf of disturbance. That's not very much. Water management is 1 acre or more of property
The plan shows what it current now .... what will be built and how that new building will change the water on the property. Often you have to do one after to prove you did what you said you were going to do -- the "as built" plan.
So while the "drainage plan" does indeed show how water will and will not move on the property it is much more than that ... what you need to find out is what they want on the plan.
Most areas now use the "plan" to show if you need others. Like a soil disturbance plan or a water management plan.
In my area the disturbance plan is the one that kicks in the others ... it's only 1ksf of disturbance. That's not very much. Water management is 1 acre or more of property
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FredWanaker
Well-known member
in his case it is the inspector who told him to drain the water to the front of his property where the road is. Personally I would have been happy with just building the barn/garage.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
in his case it is the inspector who told him to drain the water to the front of his property where the road is. Personally I would have been happy with just building the barn/garage.
What do you mean?
As I said in your other thread re: ordering the building, most homeowners are better served by retaining a site design engineer (as distinct from a structural engineer, but may be the same guy) to talk with the City about their requirements. Most homeowners and regulators don't speak the same language. This certainly seems to be the case here. A designer familiar with the jurisdiction will.
Requirements change at regular intervals. Has something changed since your neighbors built? I suspect the requirement for the SWPPP triggers at a 1 acre of impervious surface (roofs, drives, etc) threshold, not based on lot size. 1 acre is a fairly typical threshold, but its dropping to 1/2 acre here in VT in July 1. It could also be triggered by 1 acre of disturbance.
The need for a topographic survey and real site design is not uncommon at all.
Requirements change at regular intervals. Has something changed since your neighbors built? I suspect the requirement for the SWPPP triggers at a 1 acre of impervious surface (roofs, drives, etc) threshold, not based on lot size. 1 acre is a fairly typical threshold, but its dropping to 1/2 acre here in VT in July 1. It could also be triggered by 1 acre of disturbance.
The need for a topographic survey and real site design is not uncommon at all.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
A SWPPP isn't required for my lot. Just a grading/drainage plan. Only if the project is an acre. I don't think a 3000 square foot building is anywhere near an acre.As I said in your other thread re: ordering the building, most homeowners are better served by retaining a site design engineer (as distinct from a structural engineer, but may be the same guy) to talk with the City about their requirements. Most homeowners and regulators don't speak the same language. This certainly seems to be the case here. A designer familiar with the jurisdiction will.
Requirements change at regular intervals. Has something changed since your neighbors built? I suspect the requirement for the SWPPP triggers at a 1 acre of impervious surface (roofs, drives, etc) threshold, not based on lot size. 1 acre is a fairly typical threshold, but its dropping to 1/2 acre here in VT in July 1. It could also be triggered by 1 acre of disturbance.
The need for a topographic survey and real site design is not uncommon at all.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
I think the issue is my lot has 100ft of frontage to the main city road and the neighbors lots don't touch the main road.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
We can build a 5000 sq foot structure before a swppp plan is required. They just want a drainage/grading plan.