Drill press capacities- advise me

[tarbellb]

I am drilling 2000 pocket holes that are 2" diameter x 5/8" deep into White Oak.

Im using what is available at the moment which is a circa 1982 Taiwan 1/4hp tabletop drill press. You can imagine, its having a hard time keeping up.

The motor will make a clicking noise and momentarily slow down. I have tightened the belts, checked all the hardware, and built a jig to hold the workpiece.

So.... what would be a recommendation for a drill press?

Seems when I had my old Steel City 17" floor mount it would slip on big diameter stuff like this too?

Is there a cheap gear driven press? (no, not likely)

(not a lot of CL for older drill presses, plus I need it operational NOW)

Also, I would prefer to have a table top model. Dont want to commit the floor space (why I sold my 17").

Pic of the setup:

 

[McLean]

There is no way around the belts slipping (I even encounter this issue w/ my Clausing 20 w/ 3 belts to the spindle) although something with larger belts couldn't hurt.

The only smaller gear driven "drill presses" that I'm aware of are the Mill /Drill machines, but those aren't usually the run of the mill ones on CL either. Have you checked out Grizzly.com? They have a good selection of import machines and seem to be good value.

Another option might be to get a floor standing drill press and shorten the column to make it benchtop.

Good luck and I'm curious to hear what you figure out.

 

[dutchgray]

The cheapest way out would be to find one of those big old triple reduction arm breaker drills made by Black & Decker, Milwaukee and the others in the drill stand they did for those drills, will have the power and being all geared won't slip, you give up some accuracy and distance to column.

 

[yaidunno]

Your certainly correct in that your current drill press will struggle to keep up, or even last for the 2000 hole job. If you don't wish to have a floor standing drill press, simply cut down the column to your desired height and place it on a table.

I've got tan older Delta 17" with a true 1 HP motor that would be happy to spin that bit in white oak. Personally, I cant recommend any newer equivalent to suit the task. I've used the new Jet's and their clones. The covers rattle, they vibrate due to pulley imbalances, tipsy due to their small and light base, and the machine work leaves some to be desired. That's not to say they wouldn't get the job done for you, however.

I'd be looking at a 3/4-1 hp motor for what your doing. That will run your bit comfortably. Most all that I see in that size range will be floor models, so prepare to cut the column, or sacrifice the floor space.

http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/15-benchtop-drill-press/716200

This one linked above might fit the bill? I have no experience with their new style, but it would seem to meet your needs.

 

[Todd.Brock]

I have a Clausing Variable speed drill that I have not yet caused to slip. I'm not sure there will be much variation between tabletop models on CL.

I used a bench top router for my dining room wainscoting project. One thing I learned is that Pitch Remover from Rockler and a cheap set of diamond files went a hell of a long way to improving the performance of the bits. I assume a drill bit would be the same. By keeping the bit tuned up, it would ease the stress on your drill motor

You could buy a Floor model and cut the tube .

Just out of curiosity - what the heck are you making that needs 2000 holes ?

 

[MoonRise]

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

You chose small and low powered bench top drill press .

Not anything necessarily 'wrong' with the choice, except now you are asking it to run a rather large 2" diameter Forstner bit. Into white oak. 2000 times. Not really the right tool for the job IMHO.

Slow down the bit rpm to it's slowest setting (looks like you have done that), use a new/sharp bit, and take your time to allow the bit to work and not bog down the motor (too much).

A 'bigger' machine, like a floor model drill press with a bigger motor with double-reduction pulleys to get the motor rpm down to about 250-350 rpm at the bit/chuck for that 2" diameter Forstner bit (see the following rpm charts, found with 0.38 seconds of google-fu ), save them if you don't already have such drill rpm charts saved or available by your drill press.

https://www.fnal.gov/pub/takefive/pdfs/Drill_Press_Speed_Chart.pdf

http://www.woodsmith.com/files/issues/137/bit-speed-chart.pdf

http://www.leevalley.com/en/html/06j0104ie.pdf

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/Your-Guide-to-Drill-Bits.pdf


Jet 17" 16 speed double-reduction floor standing drill press, 3/4 HP motor and no-load rpm choices from 210-3500 rpm

http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/17-drill-press/716300

Manual for said drill press, see page 19 of the PDF for the rpm settings and speed recommendation chart.

http://content.jettools.com/assets/manuals/716300_man_EN.pdf

Ahh, the Jet 15" bench top drill press linked from above is also a 3/4 HP 16 speed unit with double-reduction pulleys. 150 lbs worth of bench top machine. That should be way more capable of spinning your 2" Forstner bit.

http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/15-benchtop-drill-press/716200

Manual for said drill press:

http://content.jettools.com/assets/manuals/716250_man_EN.pdf


And a +2 on what the heck are you making with 2000 2" diameter flat bottom holes in white oak?

 

[tarbellb]

Thanks all. Good info as usual. Kinda what I expected given the circumstances.

I have a line on a Dayton 17" 3/4hp floor model, used on CL for $350? Meh, Daytons are usually rebranded Taiwan or China offerings from Grainger.

Almost hate saying it, but HF has a 13" bench top model, 3/4hp (...maybe) for $240 after taxes and coupons.

And there is a old Rockwell 17" 1/2hp on CL but looks rough, guys says it "has a slow start..."

and like I said, I need it working soon. Cant afford time wise to pickup a project.

 

[kbs2244]

Do a cost comparison of a different drill press vs a quantity buy (500) of factory sharpened bits.

 

[tarbellb]

Do a cost comparison of a different drill press vs a quantity buy (500) of factory sharpened bits.

Not sure if that makes sense?

I am using a (brand new) Austrian made Freud bit, one of the highest rated bits for this type.

 

[EdT]

Most of the smaller drill presses like the one you have turn too fast for a bit that size which overloads the motor and doesn't help the bit if the motor can actually turn it. What you need is more torque and less rpm at the bit. You might be able to put a larger pulley on the spindle and slow things down and increase the torque. The problem will be that the wrap on the smaller pulley will become worse and it may slip. You could put on a couple of idlers to improve the wrap and it would work better. Still 1/4HP is pretty puny for that size hole. If you go looking at other drill presses, take a look at the current draw. That is a good indicator of torque although it doesn't factor in various inefficiencies that the motor may have.You could probably put a half HP motor on that press with a bit of fudging. Or maybe that big one on the floor in your photo. If the goal is to make 2000 holes and not a have a drill press rebuild project you might consider using a router and a circle jig.

 

[Hornman]

Put a 1.0 HP motor on your little table top drill press with new belts. It's going to take a lot of 2" forstner bits to drill 2000 holes, and you are going to get very good at sharpening them.

 

[stuk4x4]

Just a thought, have you thought about outsourcing this part of the job you are doing?
Might be a lot cheaper in the long run. Do you have a local sharpening service that you can take the bits to and have them tuned up? I also am curious what you are making 2000 holes in.
Good luck
Stuk4x4

 

[beakie]

why are you drilling 2k worth of pocket holes that size?

just curious what you're making that that is your only option.

 

[Kevin54]

If you have the coin, and you do quite a bit of woodworking like that, I would look into getting a good used Bridgeport Mill. You won't wear it out drilling (2000) 2" holes, and you won't have problems with the speed slowing down on you or overheating of the motor either. If you shop around, you could probably pick one up for around $1500 and up.

 

[manwithtools]

If I had to make that many holes in white oak I'd be tempted to use a template and bushing for a plunge router and use a up cut carbide bit to mill out the holes. If you had access to a CNC router that would make real quick work of this too.

I may have missed it, but what are you making that requires that many holes? You'll for sure need to sharpen that forstner bit many times in the course of 2000 holes.

 

[tarbellb]

I have piqued everyones interest!

My company bid and won a job with Sierra Nevada Brewery (one of the OG and best micro brewers in the world). They sell Beer Flight Trays at the gift shop and online.

They do a couple thousand a year. I got the contract. Its simple enough, just very production oriented. Im getting all my processes down and figuring out what I need.

They are made from the actual whiskey barrels used to age the beers. The staves (White Oak) come to me and I clean them up (nasty char work), cut them down, pocket holes, bandsaw handles, brand the logo, clear coat.

Like I said, this is my first order with them. Ill have a better idea of whats needed by the end, and be sorted for the following orders.

 

[beakie]

not what I was thinking when I read "pocket holes"

I would look into something that leaves a clean "center free" hole opposed to using a fortsner bit.

end mill maybe?

 

[Zeke]

I noticed the belt placement as the slowest speed. For wood you want to use the higher speed. I don't know which of the 2 will work the best. High speed and slow feed will get you by until you can find a better tool. I know this is contrary to what Moonrise suggests. Try it and see, one of us has to be right

I do like the idea of a template and router. You won't have to move the work to each hole and the bottom will be smooth. If you wish, you can obtain a bit with a slight round over to soften the angle at the bottom.

If you go to buy a router, get a 3 HP with a 1/2 collet. Freud and Bosch make some awesome bits. There's also Whiteside and Amana. They come with guide bearings for template work. You will won't need oversized template holes when using a 1/2" bit and bearing as the bearing is 1/2". Or you can get a bigger one and oversize your holes.

Wish I had that contract. How are you cleaning up the old staves? I've done some interesting things with a wire wheel in a table saw. There's always a junk TS for sale on CL. The old iron CM saws with a 1 HP motor work extremely well for cleaning rusty metals. You can also put a flapper wheel in them. Works bitchin'.

Get a good dust collection system!

 

[Todd.Brock]

Since you are in business to make money- you may need to tool up a bit more than a table top drill press. I would look into having a template fabbed up for a router. That way the holes are lined up and it's easily repeatable. A small power planer would clean up the staves as well and quickly. Time is money! Don't forget all your PPE and a Dust collector as Zeke mentioned.

are you getting paid in beer??

 

[manwithtools]

I wish I had that contract too. I could churn those out on the CNC mill and then laser the logo into it with the laser engraver.

Router with template
CNC Router
CNC Mill

For sure you need to tool up. If you need a template made for the router, PM me. I can explain in detail how I'd make one - actually pretty easy as Zeke said - or I can make one on the mill for you.

If you are going to bid more projects like this you should strongly consider a CNC machine of some type. The real value comes in the repetitive work. Load up the part, hit the go button and go do another task while it's cutting. You could be sanding and branding while the machine makes the pockets.

Oh, the pocket quality and uniformity would be better too.

Do you have an oscillating spindle sander or inflatable drum sander to sand the edges?

Congrats on the contract!

 

[tarbellb]

Using a router and template would certainly make for a cleaner finish, but the beauty of this job is they like the reclaimed/rustic look. The center hole doesnt bother them which is nice too.

Also, using a router is probably more time consuming then the forstner bit. It doesnt help that the staves have a radius in both axis either. Sure, I could rig up a jig, but then my depths would be off.

Using the drill press is easy enough, and has the allowable accuracy. I laser cut the templet for center punching the holes and handle radius marking. It takes about 3 mins to punch and drill 4 holes.

Sadly, im off to Harbor Freight later today to grab the 13" bench top drill press w 3/4hp motor.

Its not ideal, but if I burn up the motor on this first batch I can just warranty it out and get going again.

The next order isnt for another 4 months giving me time to find a better option.

(oh and laser the logo is very cool, but I timed it.... 2-3mins vs 10 secs for the branding)

 

[manwithtools]

I'll bet the branding is fast, but don't you have to include the time to get it hot and keep it hot?

 

[MoonRise]

Wait a minute.

You are a business, and you bid a job to Sierra Nevada Brewing for 500 beer flight holders made from 'reclaimed' reworked charred oak whiskey barrels staves.

And you are trying to do this with a 30+ year old, undersized and underpowered (for this task IMNSHO, and as you have found out yourself and verified from trying to do some of the 2" diameter holes in said white oak with a Forstner bit) 1/4 hp single stage belt reduction table top drill press??????

Tool up and spend the bucks for a drill press with double reduction pulleys and enough horsepower to actually spin a 2" diameter Forstner bit in white oak (or other hardwoods).

And I might also suggest picking up a Freud carbide Forstner bit. Carbide lasts waaaay longer than steel before getting dull.

http://www.freudtools.com/index.php/products/product/FC-015

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/832582/freud-2-dia-carbide-forstner-bit.aspx

Or a 'better' Forstner bit (still Freud in this case)

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/832885/freud-precision-shear-2-dia-forstner-bit.aspx

Or

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/140013/2-bormax-forstner-style-bit.aspx

Or

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/41...er-bit-2-cd-x-38-sh-x-312-oal-cylindrica.aspx

Or a Colt Maxi-cut Forstner

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=62137&cat=1,180,42240

And possibly grinding down the center spur (not needed) to get a 'nicer' looking (IMNSHO) actual flat bottom on the holes.

 

[yaidunno]

The project likely has the potential for some nice profits, should you be setup for production work. It would appear that you aren’t quite in that position. Short of a CNC device, I would see the hole operations being done in a mulit-position jig that requires no layout (linear rails+detents). A foot operated quill would leave both hands available to quickly move and secure the work piece. A few hours developing and making such jig would save considerable time in the long run, especially if you have another batch forecasted in the future. It would bridge the gap between a HF drill press, and CNC equipment. I would have to think that if the compound curves allow the piece to sit flat enough on a table, that the varied hole depth would not be much concern.

I really like the branding stamp. That looks very well made. Their beer is quite tasty, I have a few waiting for me in the fridge.

Best of luck with the project, and keep an eye out for quality used equipment in the future.

 

[CNGsaves]

+1 for Wrong Tool for the job.

Router with a template at minimum . . . . or a mill.

MoonRise . . . .I sure like that Jet JDP-17 standing drill press . . . $740 on Amazon !!

 

[tarbellb]

Moonrise- I appreciate all your research, I didnt realize carbide forstner bits are widely available. That could definitely be a better long term bit for drilling.

But easy man.... I know that little 1/4horse drill press was underrated for the task. But it was available at the time and it gave me something to judge by.

Im all for getting the appropriate tools and processes for the job. Ive made jigs for every stage now, from the cradle for wire brushing the pieces, to a clamping sled that makes the width cut on a table saw.

But Im still relatively new out here, and still getting my shop/biz up to snuff. Sold most my large equipment before moving 1200 miles.

There is one other element to these pieces that make jigs/templates/processes a bit tricky.

They are all different! They come in varying widths, heights, arcs, lengths, etc... and they want to keep them that way. I cut 50 at one width and change the fence. Same with the length. And those are just the ones that need to be cut down, more then half are varying widths that I dont have to cut.

So using a router template or Mill would be a huge headache for setup.

I really think the drill press method, while a bit flawed, is the most flexible and ideal.

yaidonno- I love that multi step jig idea.... stay tuned for a jig!

 

[Zeke]

You didn't mention initially that the staves had curvature on 2 axis, but we should have known that if we have half an idea about what a barrel stave is. So this is really more of a 'hand-made' type of deal. I think you're on the right track with more HP and a much better bit.

Now I'm wondering about a 2nd operation in each hole. Sort of a Scotchbrite on a round mandrel type of thing to really put the biz on the inside of those holes. Your replaced DP will handle that nicely.

 

[rsanter]

either go slow and deal with it of you need a bigger drill press

some belt slipping is a good thing as it should tell you to slow your feed.
the bigger wider the belt the better as it is more surface area contact.

a new belt that is not dried up will help too

use the best sharpest bit you can as that will make things easier on you and the drill press

bob

 

[James-W]

It seems to be that the bottom on the stave has to be flat or else it will wobble and that would not be a good idea when sitting glasses of beer on it. Are you planing down one side so the stave lays flat? I am a little confused by this, but it isn't the first time I have been confused and I am pretty sure it won't be the last.

 

[James-W]

I was just thinking, if it takes you let's say 5 minutes to make one of the holders, then that means you can make 12 of them per hour. To make 500 of them would require 41.6 hours so let's say one full work week. I take it you are already working a regular job with a 40 hour week.

Personally, if I were you, I would be looking for a way to do this job using some type of automated equipment. I am not sure just what type equipment you would need, but I would say this project is pretty labor intensive so the more automated you can make it, the better off you will be. I suspect the initial cost of equipment to do this will be expensive, but once you have it you will be able to make these things quick and easy.

 

[stuk4x4]

You definitely have your work cut out, I agree with the jigs and repetitive processes being the way to go for production run items, however if you are building your business up and trying to upgrade as you can, then sometimes your labor is not worth as much on certain jobs. I have done small jobs where it took more time to do it the “slow way” however still met the deadline and had more cash on hand at the end of the job. I am interested to hear what the successes and short comings are after you complete the first 500. Good luck and congratulations on winning the contract.
Stuk4x4

 

[bradw100]

Given that you don't control the raw materials, I think a more manual process is the correct course. That makes a drill press the proper tool for this job. I bought the new Jet drill press last year and am really happy with it. I especially like the belt and idler design. It's this one. Drill Press

I did a bunch of 35mm holes for cup hinges and bought a cheap carbide bit hoping it would last through the job. It did last and drilled 100+ clean holes in melamine without any chip out. Here's the 50mm version of what I used, for $9 I think it would be a worthwhile experiment. Bit

It sounds like you've thought through the jigs, now you just need to find a rhythm to the work and knock them out.

Brad

 

[Murphy4570]

A 2" hole even in wood is serious business. Your average light duty drill press isn't gonna cut the mustard.

I agree with the comments on getting an old (but not clapped out!) Bridgeport mill for this. It'll do the job handily after you make jigs to center the parts without wasting time setting up every single part on the table.

You could also find an old multi-spindle industrial drill press. They pop up from time to time on craigslist, and can usually be found at used industrial machining equipment suppliers. These tools use 3-5 drill presses built into a single table, ganged together. This allows for easy production drill work.

Third option is to purchase a radial arm drill press. These machining drill presses as built by American, Cincinnati, etc., are not belt driven. These are GEAR driven. Obscenely strong and can drill over 6" holes accurately through steel.

 

[Gotcha640]

To everyone saying he needs to spend a couple grand on tools, what do you think he's getting paid to do the work? If this is a hobby and an excuse to buy toys, go for it, but the most long term profitable craftsmen I know are more cautious about spending money on what may be overkill.

Even buying all new every batch, it would take a lot of HF drill presses and carbide forstner bits to add up to the mill, transport, vfd, tooling, not to mention a learning curve and garage real estate.

It also sounds like they aren't in a rush to get them finished. A couple hundred a week could be done evenings and weekends and let the drill cool down.

 

[James-W]

The way the opening poster is doing the work now is very labor intensive. I take it that he already has a full time job so if he can find ways of speeding up the process for building these things it would be to his benefit. I am certainly not suggesting that he run right out and buy several thousands of dollars worth of equipment, but I do suggest that he be looking for ways of speeding up the building process. In my opinion anytime he sees an opportunity to buy a piece of equipment that will speed up the building process, he should take advantage of that opportunity and buy it. Gradually, as he adds more equipment, he will be able to run a project like this quickly and at the same time, he will be able to do other projects using the same equipment. There is money to be made out there, but you need the right equipment to do it.

 

[ssdave]

There's machines made for doing this that will do a good job and last. The smoothness of the spindle runout compared to a drill press may increase cutter life also. That can be quite significant in a production run. Here's the type of machine I'm thinking of; don't know if a $4000 machine is worth it to you or not.

http://woodworker.com/minipress-boring-machine-220v1ph-mssu-135-233.asp

 

[tarbellb]

A 2" hole even in wood is serious business. Your average light duty drill press isn't gonna cut the mustard.

I agree with the comments on getting an old (but not clapped out!) Bridgeport mill for this. It'll do the job handily after you make jigs to center the parts without wasting time setting up every single part on the table.

Murphy4570..... are you f'n with me right now. Did you really just post a 20,000lb machine for me to consider on this job?

Its late, and I am enjoying the responses. Many of them helpful and similar to what I would be advising as well, but this is starting to feel like a set up.

 

[WhoWhatNow]

Murphy4570..... are you f'n with me right now. Did you really just post a 20,000lb machine for me to consider on this job?

Its late, and I am enjoying the responses. Many of them helpful and similar to what I would be advising as well, but this is starting to feel like a set up.

It may be your cheapest option though. Last one of those I saw at auction went for $600. I think it was an American.

 

[Jim Johnstone]

Murphy4570..... are you f'n with me right now. Did you really just post a 20,000lb machine for me to consider on this job?

Its late, and I am enjoying the responses. Many of them helpful and similar to what I would be advising as well, but this is starting to feel like a set up.

Pffft, 6000 lbs tops!

 

[bimmer1980]

Looks like Kazlx beat you to the drill press that would be nice for your project....

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=299156&page=17

Not knowing what you are making on each piece and the whole contract also makes a difference. We also don't know what you value your time at.

Regardless, I think any drill press with at least 3/4hp or more has got to be better than what you are dealing with right now.

The other thing to check is whether you can run the new drill press on 240VAC instead of 120 VAC. That will also make a difference.

Regardless, let's see some pics of the new press once you have it up and running.