Drill press won’t spin

[Neto_09]

Hi forum, I have a question, I have a old drill press that I just bought, it’s a national industrial tools, it’s Taiwan made, has 12 speeds. The motor seems not to have enough force or torque to start spinning. In the slower speed would not spin even if I try to help to rotate with my hand, I’m the medium speed, it will run helping it with my hand.
I open it and dust out the motor. I haven’t change any bearing.
Do you guys think that the problem would be the capacitor? I’ve been searching and apparently the right start capacitor has to be on a value of 500-580 uF. I’m just a hobbyist, I don’t not know much of electricity. Please, any input will be very appreciated. Thank you and merry Christmas.

 

[930dreamer]

You could test the cap or just replace and give it a try.

 

[joecon]

Is it wired for 110 or 220 volt. what you describe is what happens if you try to run a 220 motor on 110.

 

[driz]

Take the belt off and spend it by hand. See if anything is binding in the bearings , pulleys ect. If not And such a thing exists where you live try taking the motor to an AC motor repair shop. I know they like unicorns but there’s still a few mom n pops around.
I had an old 6 inch grinder I got after sitting for decades in a basemen that acted similar. The guy bench checked it quick and stuck in a $18 capacitor and away I went happy as can be.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Jbullfrog]

Taking the motor off a drill press isn't a good way to check it, as the switch and 110/220 plug are on the press, not the motor. If your not familiar with wiring, you can make it a lot more confusing.

 

[The Cobbler]

^^ but the wiring on the motor would (should) indicate if it's wired for 120 or 240

 

[BFBOB]

On most dual-voltage motors there is a wiring diagram on the plate that covers the wiring compartment. IF so, take the cover off and see what color wires are connected what other colors. It's usually pretty easy to see which way it's connected. 120V and 240V plugs/ receptacles are different and incompatible just to prevent such problems, but it is possible with some to twist a prong on the plug and make it fit into the wrong receptacle.
I encountered this in my house - a 240V window AC seemingly plugged into a 120V outlet - The 90 degree inclined prong of its plug had been twisted to be parallel to the other prong, so it would fit into a 120V outlet that had been wired up to 240V. That's the kind of **** that can get people killed, burn down houses, or both.

 

[macgee]

Taking the motor off a drill press isn't a good way to check it, as the switch and 110/220 plug are on the press, not the motor. If your not familiar with wiring, you can make it a lot more confusing.

I'm going to counter that.

Based on my experience restoring a bunch old drill presses and the same goes for table saws, these machines have a chainlink of several wire connectors and items to make that motor work or not work on that drill press from the outlet to the motor. I've had saw dust and grime making the machines on/off switch go bad and not run properly, making me chase my tail figuring out why the motor isn’t working. Also, the wiring in the junction box on the motor being wonky or badly done by previous owner, making a weak or faulty connection.

The reason why I recommend this is for several reasons. With the motor and belt off, you can feel how the the front top pulley feels when turning it, bad bearings can make it really tough for the motor to work. then check the pulley on the motor.

Taking the motor off is super easy, (4 bolts) and the clearest way to help decipher where the problem is. This also depends on how comfortable you are with electrical connections and switches but its not too hard and everything is easily accessible. Taking the motor off and getting an old sacrificial power cable to test is easy and quick work to test the motor. Cut the female plug off of a spare power cord, strip the wires and temporally wire the motor (twist wires and cover them with electrical tape or isolators) to the power cord as described on the motor plate diagram, usually there's some info on the motor plate to wire 110 or 220v. (its either color coded or numbers that are marked on wires coming out the motor). To turn on, plug and unplug at outlet to test.

Before wiring the motor to the test cord, spin the gear pulley on the motor and see how it feels, does it spin fine or is it rough? Do this before wiring and plugging in the power cord. If it’s fine, go ahead and plug in the motor and see how it spins & sounds without anything touching the pulley on it; make sure the motor wont fly off your workbench when turning it on. If it’s slow to start with good bearings, thats a clear sign that the capacitor is wonky. Which is no big deal and the easiest thing to deal with, you can buy a new start capacitor on Amazon quickly delivered to your front door for $8-$15. Capacitors go out after a while and why they make it so easy to access. The motor may also have a run capacitor. Does the motor have one or two semi round covers on it that unscrew that is on the outside of motor? If you need help choosing the correct capacitor for that motor, feel free to contact me.

Before removing the motor, take photo’s of the motor and the way its wired up in the junction box on the motor, gently unfold the wires and connectors that are jammed in there so they’re easier to see and photograph. That way you know how to go back to the same setup if needed. All of this sounds like a lot but its pretty painless and quickly helps isolate where the problem is.

The Taiwan drill presses are known for switches going out, especially for the light bulb. If the motor runs fine on its own and front spindle pulley turns smoothly with no drag or rough, then the problem is in wiring or the switch.

Here’s a video of a motor (below) that I was about to rebuild and was testing it with a test power cord connected directly to motor with clips. I was plugging it in and unplugging the motor to test it.

https://imgur.com/3LQNZWF

I hope you find this useful.

 

[Neto_09]

I’ll take some pics later today.
I did connect the motor direct to an extension cord still mounted to the press and it does the same thing, won’t turn. The motor it’s supposed to be wired to 110v. @macgee, in your experience, those 1hp Taiwanese motors have only four same color wires with numbered plastic “rings”coming out of the motor, right? I was looking on videos from YouTube, and I whatched a video from Jeremy fielding. What I noticed is that he’s connecting the capacitor wires with the output line wires. I don’t know if they’re the same kind of motor (induction) that he’s working with in the video to the one I have.

 

[Neto_09]

Did I mention that I have two of those motors??
The one on the press, I got it for free, the guy was going just to dump it. And the one in the bench it’s the one that came with the press. I paid $60 for the press

 

[Neto_09]

The one in the drill is the one that I’ve been working with. The one in the bench, gets a little stuck when applying power to it. But it’s dust I think ‘cause the first time I get it to work, dust came out of it through the fan in the bottom.

 

[macgee]

Those photo's are very helpful, nice job.

I have not seen his videos before, so I cant comment on them. Generally the wires inside the motor are numbered like yours but they also can come colored instead of numbers (ie: yellow & blue, red & white.....etc). Newer motors can have more wires coming out of it (not including the capacitor wires) but yours only has four so lets focus on that.

I really, really hope you removed the electrical tape off those terminal ends bounded by those nut and bolts? And was not like that when using? Be careful of those hot exposed connections.

The wiring looks to be well labeled but bummer there is no chart or wiring diagram for 110/220.

Does the second motor work? They both look like the wires are connected in the same combination? 1-3 & 4-2. This is promising and gives you more confidence that both are wired correctly as opposed to if each one has different combo's. For now. lets just assume they're wired correctly for 110v if they both had 110v plugs on them. I see that you removed both capacitors, do the capacitors have any marking on them? They should have specs on them?

How did the spindles feel when turning it by hand? Any roughness, resistance, bad bearings or did it feel smooth? Did you try turning the motors on wired as I asked earlier with the capacitors connected? This will quickly help diagnose.

I'm going to say its most likely the capacitor, they can sometimes work but when bad they cant hold a good charge and act wonky but we first need to finish testing. Do both motors not work? Do both motors have the same capacitor specs? Look on the capacitor

Vacuuming out the motor with small spout is good to do to help get any dust out, then blow air into it if your feel there's more. I generally don't like to blow high pressure air into motors as that can jam grime into the bearing and other place where you don't want it getting stuck.

 

[Neto_09]

The motors spin good when I do it by hand, no roughess. I forgot to take a pic from the wiring label, but according to the label, the motor it’s wired to 110v. The tape was me to identifying the wires.
My first thought was if the capacitor have l enough uF’s to start the motor, that’s why I post the first pic at the beginning of the post. I’m working with one cap, since the drill motor came with no cap. I tested the cap with my multimeter and it’s good. According to this chart, I’m not using the right cap. What do you think??
According to what I googled, a 1hp motor it’s around .746 Kw. At 110v. So, it needs a cap with 500-580 uF’s to start properly. Is this right?

 

[Neto_09]

This is the video that I was talking about

 

[Neto_09]

The motor has only one capacitor. A start capacitor. Unless something it’s missing inside of the press where the switch and the bulb are. That’s why I decided to wire the motor straight from the source and not from the switch. But it didn’t work.

 

[macgee]

For 1hp you can use µF. You can use vac versions for your motor.

What does the specs say on the capacitor you have?

You're doing everything right, some motors have a start captor and a run capacitor mounted to the side of the motor. Sounds like yours is only a single capacitor. Wiring directly to the motor eliminates other issues and helps narrow down if it is the motor. Your doing a good job.

One other factor is the physical size of capacitor so it can fit inside the housing. Going oversized can be too big to fit inside the housing.

I'm running around right now so I cant watch the video

 

[Neto_09]

Here’s a pic of the diagram.
Forgot to mention about the “TCS”. What’s that? Is that part missing that’s why the motor is not starting right?

 

[macgee]

Here’s a pic of the diagram.
Forgot to mention about the “TCS”. What’s that? Is that part missing that’s why the motor is not starting right?

No clue what they mean with TCS in regards to an older drill press motor, thermal switch, thats a new one to me on DP motor.

By the information you've provided above, I'm fairly certain its just the capacitor and wire it up like a normal 110v motor; then you should be good. Capacitors are cheap and easy.

Please provide the specs written on capacitor or post pics of whats written on it.

 

[tool_scrounge]

TCS = thermal cutoff switch? But usually that is an internal wired thing. So I doubt it.

 

[Neto_09]

Here’s a pic of the capacitor
I just “discover” something. I started the drill and I found out that will only work on low speeds, but not by itself, I have to “help it” spinning the pulley with my hands. On the last 4 high speed settings, won’t work. I don’t understand because I noticed that in the lower speeds there’s some tension from the belts to the pulleys, and it needs just a little spinning from my hand, as I move the belt to a higher speed, the more the motor needs to be “push” to start spinning. Once I get to the higher speed (which there’s very little tension from the belts to the pulleys at the moment to spinning by hand) the motor won’t start spinning by it self, even “pushing” it with my hands.

 

[The Cobbler]

tcs I wonder is the capacitor, and that gets wired to hot along with 1&3 to neutral . 3 & 4 just tie together
are the cap wires loose ?

 

[Neto_09]

Mmhh, what do you mean loose?

 

[macgee]

The symptoms you're seeing is a typical bad cap scenario. Which is a good thing, lesser of evils and easiest to fix and its cheap.

I'll be honest, my brain is less clear now days so I don't want to give you the wrong info based on the info given and I'm currently away from my shop with a different hat on till tomorrow but I'm going to bet that motor needs a start capacitor and not a run capacitor.

If thats the case and your housing can fit it, I recommend this one. It's slightly bigger than your existing one and with a higher vac. The key is if it will physically fit inside the housing? Order it and plugging it in is all that should be needed to make run as it should.

I would feel more comfortable if other members like " Davefr " and " exmaxima1 " would chime in with their suggestions.

https://www.amazon.com/340-408-165-VAC-Capacitor-092A340B165AC1A/dp/B07MXQWKFL?th=1

Heat is definitely not a capacitors friend and capacitors are more of a consumable part, so not surprised if thats been the problem. It's kinda like changing the batteries out of your tv remote when it only sometimes works or you have to walk closer to the tv for it to work.

 

[Neto_09]

Thank you macgee, I really appreciate all your help. I’ll but this capacitor. Can you please post the link again, the link is not working.

 

[macgee]

Sorry about that, try this link:

https://www.amazon.com/340-408-165-VAC-Capacitor-092A340B165AC1A/dp/B07MXQWKFL?th=1

Again, I would feel more comfortable if others agree on this recommendation. And check the physical size to see if it will fit inside the cover.

 

[gorilla]

A capacitor start motor has a switch that is speed activated to disconnect the cap when the motor is up to run speed if it's stuck or burned out it will cause exactly what your seeing. It will be located usually on the opposite end of the motor from the output shaft. You'll be able to see it if you remove the end bell of the motor. I've seen this failure a lot in dirty environments

 

[exmaxima1]

If it won't start by hand it isn't the cap or the start switch---your hand is essentially replacing the cap/switch function. I tend to agree it's either wired for the wrong voltage, or possibly an open winding.

 

[Neto_09]

It won’t start when placing the belts on the last 4 high speed position, even turning it by hand.
I followed the instructions on the video that I posted, but I’m missing the “pink wires @ that he has in the video as “start windings” as you can see In the pics, I have 4 wires coming out the motor and two coming out to the capacitor.

 

[exmaxima1]

If you have a multimeter, check for continuity of the individual windings. For 120v operation the motor windings are connected in parallel. You might have one set that are open.

 

[Neto_09]

Yes, I check for continuity and I have the 2 and 2 with continuity. The only ones open, with no continuity are the ones on the capacitor. And I know those have to be open and they close just for a moment when turning on the drill. (Centrifugal switch)

 

[Neto_09]

Well, the cap arrived and put it on end keep doing the same!!!!��. I think I’m going to keep it like this and buy a quality motor. thank everyone for your help

 

[macgee]

Sorry, to hear that. What a pain after all that time trying to figure it out. At least it was only $12 for the cap and returnable but you can't get all that time back.

One positive twist on this, you're now well versed in ac motors and will quickly know how to diagnose and what to do.

Edit: Don't you have two motors, are they both doing the same thing? Have you tried the new cap on that one?

 

[Neto_09]

Yep, I tried both motors with the new cap, and it’s the same thing.

 

[exmaxima1]

Yep, I tried both motors with the new cap, and it’s the same thing.

Neither motor will spin that drill press? That points to the drill press or the line power as the culprits. I assume you already checked the line amperage at turn-on, and it should be at least 15 amps (possibly up to 20 amps peak), which would verify you are getting enough power to the motor and that it was wired correctly. If that is true you likely have a bad bearing in the press dragging the motor down.

 

[American Locomotive]

Can you answer these questions:

1) With no belts on, will the motors start themselves near instantly (like less than half a second to full speed)?

2) With the belts on, will them motors start the drill press quickly (~1-2 seconds until at speed)?

3) If the motors do NOT start themselves without a belt, will they start if you give them a quick spin?

4) If the motors do NOT start with the belts ON, will they start if you give the dill press a spin?

 

[dogdog]

The motors spin good when I do it by hand, no roughess. I forgot to take a pic from the wiring label, but according to the label, the motor it’s wired to 110v. The tape was me to identifying the wires.
My first thought was if the capacitor have l enough uF’s to start the motor, that’s why I post the first pic at the beginning of the post. I’m working with one cap, since the drill motor came with no cap. I tested the cap with my multimeter and it’s good. According to this chart, I’m not using the right cap. What do you think??
According to what I googled, a 1hp motor it’s around .746 Kw. At 110v. So, it needs a cap with 500-580 uF’s to start properly. Is this right?

I don't know the cap size or remember it, I am suspecting you might be right, but that youtube video will work for your troubleshooting.

I would verify your winding with an ohm meter first before starting... and you might have to verify the centrifugal switch inside as well...

This is what I did when I dig my motor out to rewired it for reversible. Doesn't matter, troubleshooting is still the same for you or at least modify to fit you.

this link...have the name plate which shows it is almost the same configuration as yours for a Drill press motor.. except mine is 1/2 HP.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=361242&highlight=reverse

basically you wanted this it have more info.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...please-wiring-switch-motor-257832/index2.html

These drill press motor are usually wired for one direction only, if it is a dual voltage, it means your motor have two run coils w1 AND w2 and it is made to be run in one direction only so the start coil W3 (connections) will be permanent embedded to the run coils.

What I learned from that mod is W1 resistance = W2 +/- very small percentage.. might be due to my not so accurate meter. It shouldn't be way way off. W3 = W1+W2 again within a a reasonable range... In my case W1 = 8 ohm W2 = 8.05 ohm and W3 is 16.1 Ohm... if I remember correctly... They are independent coils...

Review the diagram on that practicalmachinist site... and what I did was

take out the capacitor leave those wire hanging... then measure the 4 wires 1&2 it should be one of the run coil, lets just say W1... and then measure 3 & 4 it should be the another run coil lets say W2...

W3 is harder to measure because the other end is embedded inside for these motors usually...but if you look at the practicalmachinist site for the drawings ... you'll see W3 is connected one end to the Plugs L1 or L2... then to the coil to a capacitor then the centrifugal switch... or maybe to a centrifugal switch then to the cap. So you should be able to make a measurement from one of the disconnected capacitor wires and to one end of the L1 or L2 connections in this case it's your 1 or 4 wires.

Once you verifying the coils and wiring, then I would try to verify the last piece the centrifugal switch, but requires opening up the motor... it's usually a mechanical switch... plenty of youtube videos on this as well...

if all else checked out, maybe decided to try a bigger cap.

When testing the motor try not to hook up the belt at first and make sure it spins and spins up to speed without hesitation.

good luck... YMMV of cause, dependents on your level of comfort digging into these things.

I might have a HF 1hP general purpose motor somewhere in the garage that I can verify the capacitance as a reference... If I get off my coach to look for it.


If I remember anything else, I'll add... but that practical machinist link is all I used.

 

[Whitworth]

Yep, I tried both motors with the new cap, and it’s the same thing.

Clean the god dam centrifugal switch. Open it up, inspect it and clean the contacts even if they look ok. By clean I mean polish with 400 grit sandpaper.

If that doesn't work your motor is ****, but you have to eliminate that issue as part of diagnostics. Stop buying and playing around with capacitors. They either work or they don't. If they don't work it's often obvious like with black goo oozing out the end.

Your symptom of failure at hi speeds and partial failure at slow speeds makes sense in that torque favors the motor at low speeds and less so at hi speed (more of a load on the motor). That could easily be an issue of spotty current going thru a dirty centrifugal switch.

 

[Monza Harry]

Yes, I check for continuity and I have the 2 and 2 with continuity. The only ones open, with no continuity are the ones on the capacitor. And I know those have to be open and they close just for a moment when turning on the drill. (Centrifugal switch)

Clean the god dam centrifugal switch. Open it up, inspect it and clean the contacts even if they look ok. By clean I mean polish with 400 grit sandpaper.

If that doesn't work your motor is ****, but you have to eliminate that issue as part of diagnostics. Stop buying and playing around with capacitors. They either work or they don't. If they don't work it's often obvious like with black goo oozing out the end.

Your symptom of failure at hi speeds and partial failure at slow speeds makes sense in that torque favors the motor at low speeds and less so at hi speed (more of a load on the motor). That could easily be an issue of spotty current going thru a dirty centrifugal switch.

That open coil is a definite symptom of an inopartional set of contacts, they start out connected then open. So as stated above check that they aren't broken and moving freely and then clean (fine emery, point file, etc.) Then joy should follow. If the switch doesn't move freely chuck it not worth fixing if it isn't a good one (Baldor, Dayton, Doerr, etc. and where would you get parts for no name anyways). Harry

 

[Neto_09]

Yep, it was the centrifugal switch. I removed it and sand the contact poles. And it spins freely again. Thank you everyone.
My next question was that if these motors can be turn CCW, but dogdog answered that question already. Thank you so much guys!!!!

 

[dogdog]

Yep, it was the centrifugal switch. I removed it and sand the contact poles. And it spins freely again. Thank you everyone.
My next question was that if these motors can be turn CCW, but dogdog answered that question already. Thank you so much guys!!!!

Yes they can be made to go either directions, but it requires you to Modify and separate the start coils from the run coil, the connection is embedded into the winding inside... and put everything back together nicely without burning up into flames.. I did it on my Jet drill press, just for the heck of it... Originally the motor was just squeaking I don't like it. But since I have the motor out and open, figure just to modify it for CW/CCW.. No real practical use for me but it works.