Driveway ice mitigation

[Sumboodie]

How do you all handle the dooryard being a sheet of ice? Usually several times a winter we get a warm spell, even rain. Got into the 40s, was below zero the week before! Plus in spring it'll melt and freeze at night.

Area is maybe 20-25,000 sq ft. Around 250ftx100ft. Maybe 60ft ling drive then it opens up to 80-100 ft wide and maybe 150 long.
On a slope, maybe 5-6% grade sidehill and 2% down to the street. (I'm on a 10% grade hill, about 5 acres)

Last year I tried a walk behind spreader I had. Pro grade unit made for the lawn.

It kind if worked but clogged plus the tires mostly skid. The traction "sand" was pretty expensive, I did a pass barely enough to have traction and it was $60 of sand. And it blew or slid away plus a ton tracked in the "house" (shop and apartment) take boots off before going in the apartment but still. Plus the dog doesn't help.
And it's sharp stone so it's like stepping on a Lego from hell.
Looked at buying a yard or two but not really coming up with a good way to store it that'll be out if the way, but easy to get to, And not freeze rock solid.

Looked into a fabbed "ice scratcher" for skid steer. WBM makes them. $$11k.

This maybe would work. But I have no free time... already YEARS behind on projects.

 

[Sumboodie]

Well pic isn't loading. Try it again...

 

[Sumboodie]

Nope. Loads to 100% and won't add to the post....

 

[Sumboodie]

One more try. New pic.

 

[58Yeoman]

A friend told me on T-Day that he uses calcium chloride bead ice melt, and it takes very little, as each bead melts a large area. I haven't tried it myself yet.

 

[Sumboodie]

A friend told me on T-Day that he uses calcium chloride bead ice melt, and it takes very little, as each bead melts a large area. I haven't tried it myself yet.

I'd rather not melt it, it'll be a muddy mess.

Plus salt will track into the house, in vehicles, doggo feets, etc.

If the yard was paved it would make more sense. But I'm not Daddy Warbucks and paying to pave it. Would probably be 6 figures!

 

[Fixr]

I'd rather not melt it, it'll be a muddy mess.

I think the vast majority of us avoid the problem by not living in Alaska or similar seriously cold climates, but I definitely agree with not using calcium chloride or even salt. That just keeps the mud bogs from freezing solid so you can drive over them.

Sorry, man, but I don't think there is a good cheap easy solution. Ice is a stone cold *****.

 

[Fixr]

One more try. New pic.

Is that the alleged "ice scratcher"? You already know the answer to that question. That is a shallow snowplow with a few slots cut in it. I don't have an answer, but I'm pretty sure that ain't one.

 

[Sumboodie]

I think the vast majority of us avoid the problem by not living in Alaska or similar seriously cold climates, but I definitely agree with not using calcium chloride or even salt. That just keeps the mud bogs from freezing solid so you can drive over them.

Sorry, man, but I don't think there is a good cheap easy solution. Ice is a stone cold *****.

Lot of places the US have winters worse than at home.

 

[Sumboodie]

Is that the alleged "ice scratcher"? You already know the answer to that question. That is a shallow snowplow with a few slots cut in it. I don't have an answer, but I'm pretty sure that ain't one.

Yeah, I just don't have time to build one. Probably a week worth of fab work.

Why i was looking for other ideas. Maybe someone found something pre-built they're using.

It's not slots cut in a plow, it's a grader cutting edge.

 

[Fixr]

Lot of places the US have winters worse than at home.

That's true. What do they do?

 

[Fixr]

It's a mount to hold a grader cutting edge that's used for ice. Maybe dirt too, though normally see them used on ice.

The WBM setup uses carbides. Graders can run them too, called "stingers"

My viewpoint about cutting thick hard ice is that you need knives and serious weight and hydraulic down force , not a slotted grader blade on a 3-point hitch without down force. Rippers, not scrapers. But bear in mind that I escaped Michigan at the age of 3 and never went back.

And anything that thoroughly breaks up the ice will probably leave a horrendous mess when spring arrives. Or so I imagine. But again, I was 3 years old.

 

[Fixr]

What do the big outfits do?

 

[Fixr]

I'd rather not melt it, it'll be a muddy mess.

Plus salt will track into the house, in vehicles, doggo feets, etc.

If the yard was paved it would make more sense. But I'm not Daddy Warbucks and paying to pave it. Would probably be 6 figures!

I missed this. Not paved and not being up for paying 6 figures adds another major layer of difficulty. In my experience, the big companies everywhere kinda pave their parking lots with 50 dollar bills. Maybe better for you to figure out how to cope with what you can't fix. But I left the lands of perpetual ice and snow in 1958, so I lack any actual expertise.

 

[Fixr]

Would be nice if other folks with actual experience would chime in and get me out of this hole I've dug for myself. Vermont, Maine, Frostbite Falls, Canadian Arctic territories?

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

For walking;
Golf shoes, old style with the metal spikes.
Loggers boots use the spikes too.
There are ******** spikes for shoes and boots as well.
For vehicles;
Studded winter tires
Chains

 

[Jackfre]

While I no longer live in the frozen N I have spent many years there. One thing I did when the conditions were their worst In the 50 yrs I’ve known lived up there was I got frustrated with the ice I got a couple section of garden hose and used my tankless water heater to cut channels in the ice. IF the weather co-operates once you are down to pavement it is easier for it to melt off, at least in my case.

 

[Sumboodie]

For walking;
Golf shoes, old style with the metal spikes.
Loggers boots use the spikes too.
There are ******** spikes for shoes and boots as well.
For vehicles;
Studded winter tires
Chains

Have gotten my car stuck and it's running studded tires.

While I no longer live in the frozen N I have spent many years there. One thing I did when the conditions were their worst In the 50 yrs I’ve known lived up there was I got frustrated with the ice I got a couple section of garden hose and used my tankless water heater to cut channels in the ice. IF the weather co-operates once you are down to pavement it is easier for it to melt off, at least in my case.

Don't have pavement.

 

[Sumboodie]

What do the big outfits do?

WBM scarifier on loader or stinger blade on grader, or the notched cutting edge like in my pic.

I have a toothed bucket on a track loader but without ice grousers I think it would just be a 25 ton sled.

 

[jack stand]

Around here "salt sand" is standard procedure. It doesn't take much salt mixed into the sand to keep it from freezing.
It also doesn't take much (spread) for successful vehicle operation.

 

[finn]

I just deliberately let the mat build up rather than trying to scrape to bare gravel. Lots more traction that way. My drive is sloped, but no where as steep, though.

County roads are snow covered till spring. Don’t see pavement or gravel till spring.

State maintained highways are brined and salted, then plowed.

Walmart and other large lots are plowed and strategically salted. Most of the lot has a snow mat for much of the winter. No lots or driveways are bare after the first few snowfalls.

Sounds like you’re obsessed with swing bare ground, which results in icing.

Pickup mounted salt spreaders are becoming more popular. Nobody uses sand from what I see, although the county mixes it with salt.

 

[Yankeefarmer]

Like jack stand mentions, around here we use a sand/salt mix. The salt melts the ice just enough to hold the sand in place. Without it, the sand will just slide around on the ice. The darker color of the sand absorbs enough sunlight to widen the little craters the sand grains are sitting in, and you get a rough enough surface to get decent traction. It takes very little of this mix to treat an area. Most New England towns provide this mix free (you shovel into a bucket) to taxpayers.

It’s also important to grade the surface so that any melting that occurs runs away from the walk/travel area; otherwise melt/freeze cycles act like nature’s Zamboni.

edited to add: if there’s a snowstorm that will end as rain (frequent around here lately) it can be better, if possible, to wait until all precipitation has stopped before clearing. A plowed surface that gets rained on then freezes is hard ice; snow topped with an ice coating leaves no ice when plowed away.

 

[PCustoms]

Was going to quote a few posts, but it became too much.

@Sumboodie it's not unique to AK. I wasn't around to plow T-day and there was melt and re-freeze, followed by butter cold and 8" of snow.

Where I drove on the fresh snow it packed into about 1.5" of super dense snow that is slick as ice. This literally happened as I was plowing, back dragged in front of the doors and by the time I got turned around the pile packed. If I can get an edge it comes up in sheets, but chances tearing up gravel (wasn't froze solid yet).

I've done the dry sand in a spreader and had same issues with cost and slipping, I even studded the drive tire on the spreader. I can get fractured slate from the town, its black so helps with melting, but grabbing it by the bucket gets old. I have a tailgate spreader I need to fix up and mount to the tractor, then I'll get a few yards of the fractured slate delivered.

As for the scraper idea, I've always called it scarifying, and it works well if you can get it deep. Usually I see it down in the logging roads by the grader, not Sure if they are running special carbide teeth or not. I had seen carbide scarifying attachments on the big dozers. The idea isn't to rip the ground, but to great enough texture on the surface to allow for friction/grip.

Your idea would work if you can get enough down force, strong teeth and enough traction to pull/push it through.

 

[JKinAK]

“It’s also important to grade the surface so that any melting that occurs runs away from the walk/travel area; otherwise melt/freeze cycles act like nature’s Zamboni.”
^
This.
You can’t fix this situation without grading.
Even if you were able to fully groove the ice surface with a full size grader the surface is just going to melt/freeze right back to a slick surface if the melt doesn’t drain away.
And… you need enough nfs (non-frost susceptible) material to form a road base that won’t heave and break up. It’s more complicated than just adding a bunch of nfs gravel. You need an engineered solution that factors in soils and surrounding drainage patterns. If you want this to work for more than a year or two, you pretty much need to build nearly the same road structure as DOT roads in your area that are on similar soils and terrain. And you need to keep surface and ground water away from that structure via appropriate ditching and culverts (and you need that water to not cause more problems downhill.)

Sorry, there’s no easy or inexpensive solution for that environment. Without a heap of money, your best bet is to stud up (as you have done - and sometimes chain up), get icebugs (the shoes), fleece booties for the dogs, and learn to live with it… and of course (as you know) nothing works when you have 2+ inches of snow on wet glaze ice.

 

[zendriver]

Sprinkle or spread a small amount of "ice melt"

It will "melt" small pockets in the ice enough to take the slickness off of the surface, making it easier to walk and drive on.

Melting down to mud is self defeating.

 

[Sumboodie]

Like jack stand mentions, around here we use a sand/salt mix. The salt melts the ice just enough to hold the sand in place. Without it, the sand will just slide around on the ice. The darker color of the sand absorbs enough sunlight to widen the little craters the sand grains are sitting in, and you get a rough enough surface to get decent traction. It takes very little of this mix to treat an area. Most New England towns provide this mix free (you shovel into a bucket) to taxpayers.

It’s also important to grade the surface so that any melting that occurs runs away from the walk/travel area; otherwise melt/freeze cycles act like nature’s Zamboni.

edited to add: if there’s a snowstorm that will end as rain (frequent around here lately) it can be better, if possible, to wait until all precipitation has stopped before clearing. A plowed surface that gets rained on then freezes is hard ice; snow topped with an ice coating leaves no ice when plowed away.

It does, it's on a slope.

Sourcing and storing sand and salt... IF i can even buy it, it's not cheap and I'd need some sort of storage area. Would need at least a few yards.
It's definitely not free here.

Usually doesn't rain after snowing. Might be days or weeks later.

Like we got about 6" around Halloween and it rained yesterday.

 

[Sumboodie]

Dir

“It’s also important to grade the surface so that any melting that occurs runs away from the walk/travel area; otherwise melt/freeze cycles act like nature’s Zamboni.”
^
This.
You can’t fix this situation without grading.
Even if you were able to fully groove the ice surface with a full size grader the surface is just going to melt/freeze right back to a slick surface if the melt doesn’t drain away.
And… you need enough nfs (non-frost susceptible) material to form a road base that won’t heave and break up. It’s more complicated than just adding a bunch of nfs gravel. You need an engineered solution that factors in soils and surrounding drainage patterns. If you want this to work for more than a year or two, you pretty much need to build nearly the same road structure as DOT roads in your area that are on similar soils and terrain. And you need to keep surface and ground water away from that structure via appropriate ditching and culverts (and you need that water to not cause more problems downhill.)

Sorry, there’s no easy or inexpensive solution for that environment. Without a heap of money, your best bet is to stud up (as you have done - and sometimes chain up), get icebugs (the shoes), fleece booties for the dogs, and learn to live with it… and of course (as you know) nothing works when you have 2+ inches of snow on wet glaze i

doesn't matter if it heaves, I grade it every spring after breakup to get the ruts out.

ceoes

 

[Stuart in MN]

So this area is unpaved - is it just dirt? If so, maybe spreading gravel instead of sand would make a coarse enough surface so you'd still get traction.

 

[RPH]

Chicken gravel works well on ice and it doesn’t freeze up. I try to leave an ice barrier to the gravel. It makes spring clean up easier. As to tracking it in the house. No matter what surface is with, out concrete or asphalt it will track. If nothing else snow on the clothes. It’s a battle that comes yearly here. How long that is true is hard to say. Winter is changing here. Though, this week said otherwise!

 

[zendriver]

Usually doesn't rain after snowing. Might be days or weeks later.

Like we got about 6" around Halloween and it rained yesterday.

Doesn't this water run off or eventually soak into the ground? Seems like you would just have frozen ground

 

[4x4Pete]

Correcting the drainage issues and keeping up on the potholes worked pretty well for me. No salt or melter needed. I have several thousand feet of farm road and parking areas to keep open. Gravel worked sufficiently for years but needed regular upkeep. We just "renovated" all the gravel surfaces with a recycled asphalt material. Not cheap but way less than paving and it has hardened up similar to pavement. Bonus is that it's much cleaner now, no more muddy gravel soup getting all over the vehicles and equipment. Once plowed, the black/dark color of the asphalt lets the sun help melt off the remaining ice and snow.

 

[PoorUB]

The good old days, on the farm, we just fell down, got stuck! I don't know of anything to improve the situation on dirt.

Concrete? Ice melt! For those that say it is hard on concrete must have that new fangled concrete. I have been dumping 100 pounds or more a year on my driveway and it looks like it did 30 years ago.

 

[Skiff Builder]

Those guys across the water from you use these... unless you see an old Rolls Royce or Klimov laying around, it's probably hard to get!

 

[STClurker]

uhaul.com?

are we talking concrete, pavement, or gravel/dirt?

 

[Sumboodie]

Correcting the drainage issues and keeping up on the potholes worked pretty well for me. No salt or melter needed. I have several thousand feet of farm road and parking areas to keep open. Gravel worked sufficiently for years but needed regular upkeep. We just "renovated" all the gravel surfaces with a recycled asphalt material. Not cheap but way less than paving and it has hardened up similar to pavement. Bonus is that it's much cleaner now, no more muddy gravel soup getting all over the vehicles and equipment. Once plowed, the black/dark color of the asphalt lets the sun help melt off the remaining ice and snow.

No drainage issue. It's a slope of probably a foot every 10-15ft.

There's no sun that's strong enough to melt ice until April.

 

[Sumboodie]

The good old days, on the farm, we just fell down, got stuck! I don't know of anything to improve the situation on dirt.

Concrete? Ice melt! For those that say it is hard on concrete must have that new fangled concrete. I have been dumping 100 pounds or more a year on my driveway and it looks like it did 30 years ago.

Gravel. Have said that 3 or 4 times now.

Ice melt definitely eats concrete

 

[PoorUB]

Gravel. Have said that 3 or 4 times now.

Ice melt definitely eats concrete

I saw you mentioned dirt or gravel. I just added the concrete thing.

If ice melt is so damaging to concrete, I sure don't see it.

 

[Sumboodie]

I saw you mentioned dirt or gravel. I just added the concrete thing.

If ice melt is so damaging to concrete, I sure don't see it.

I did street sweeping at a property that they require ice melt on the walkways. Probably a few miles all together.

The concrete was crumbling like crazy. Right down into the rebar.

I don't want to use it at home because it's expensive, gets tracked inside, hard on dog feet, not great for the environment. My well is maybe 40ft from the driveway.
Also if too little is used, it melts they freezes and makes it worse. Have to use enough to melt down to the dirt. I'd need probably 300-400lbs each time.


I know the WBM scarifiers work, used all over here, but on big loaders.

I'm honestly surprised no one on here had had to deal with snow and then ice.

The old place i used a few cups of ice melt when needed, but it was paved and close to flat.

 

[reader2580]

A few years we got a ton of snow over the course of winter. I didn’t get the snow removed soon enough so I ended up with thick layers of ice on my gravel driveway. It was very dangerous as I slipped on it while walking out to my car. I ended up buying some sort of grit that I spread on the ice to try to maintain traction.

Once the weather started to warm a bit I had to chop at it bit by bit with an ice chipper to slowly remove it. It sucked, but was necessary. I would remove shovelfuls of ice as I broke it up.

 

[Fatboy148!]

I don’t think there is a magic solution to winter and ice other than moving as some respondents have. I too have a gravel drive to the house. I use grit / stone chips on my hill coming up to the house. It changes about 30’ in elevation over 250’. The problem for you for this year is you don’t have product on site. If you purchase it now, it would become a frozen lump due to the moisture in it. I store mine in five gallon buckets. Stacked 3 high. I have them under some pallet racking so they come 4’ off the wall and maybe 4’ -5’ wide. Thankfully I don't need a lot, so I keep maybe 40 buckets filled. I get mine in the spring, right after winter and it’s fine come the following winter. On my hill, I just spread it by hand with an ice machine scoop out of the buckets. It only takes 3-4 buckets and 15 minutes to cover the 17’ wide by 250’ with enough to provide traction for the UPS, Fed Ex, mail man to get up with their respective vehicles which are all notoriously terrible in the winter. I start at the top and as I toss it, it just slides down the ice as I toss it. Even though my hill is shielded from the sun by a hill and trees, thing with the chips is, they attract and hold heat so they will at first just lay on top of the ice and then melt into it to create little holes in it. I buiit my drive to town specs so they maintain the first 1100 feet. I’m lucky as the town truck turns around at the bottom of my drive up to the house and he usually catches the first couple hundred feet coming up to my shop when he turns around before my drive turns and comes up to the house. Before he retired, if it was slippery, my old driver would back right up near the house and spread chips and salt on the last rise to the house as well! You are correct, the grit/stone chips, will track. I have “walk off mats” and we leave our boots in the garage before coming into the house. We bring to dog through the garage as well and walk them around before letting them into the house.