Driveway ice mitigation

[zendriver]

I'm honestly surprised no one on here had had to deal with snow and then ice.

Because we generally remove the snow first?

At least where I live we never get that much ice on top of snowfall, that is so thick walking or driving in it won't break through.

AK might be late to the party (for now). In the past this region was cold, snow and ice most all winter. Now it's 20 degrees one day and 40 the next. I've used my snowblower 3 times in the last five years.

 

[Buckgnarly]

Sand salt mix and this thing. We have about 2' of snow on the ground, and are looking at 1.5" of rain this coming week....gonna be fun.

 

[Dixie_Flatline]

If I still lived somewhere that had to deal with that stuff on a regular basis I would be engineering myself a heated driveway. Bury some tubing, plumb it to a tank of antifreeze, circulating pump, and a boiler of some sort. Et voilà, no more shoveling.

 

[PCustoms]

If I still lived somewhere that had to deal with that stuff on a regular basis I would be engineering myself a heated driveway. Bury some tubing, plumb it to a tank of antifreeze, circulating pump, and a boiler of some sort. Et voilà, no more shoveling.

Totally realistic for the OP to run radiant tubes under 25,000sqft drive in Alaska.

I don't get why people that have no relevant experience or suggestions chime in on threads. Stating "move somewhere warm" is useless.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

I'm honestly surprised no one on here had had to deal with snow and then ice.

Maybe ask your neighbors in AK what they do? That space seems huge compared to an average driveway most people have to deal with.

I live in one of the coldest locations in Mass. at 2,000 elevation and experience conditions exactly like you are describing every year. We have snow until April...get routine freeze then thaw cycles or rain...long 250' dirt driveway Driveway becomes a sheet of ice at times. And we don't use salt or brine for the very reasons you mentioned. The area in front of our house we had paved two years ago and that now stays snow and ice free after a plowing. The dirt driveway I just plow and pack down. When things ice up we just walk carefully, throw the tire chains on the tractor, and deal with it. It's the price we pay for living in a very cold part of the US.

 

[Dixie_Flatline]

Totally realistic for the OP to run radiant tubes under 25,000sqft drive in Alaska.

I don't get why people that have no relevant experience or suggestions chime in on threads. Stating "move somewhere warm" is useless.

We put in irrigation at the farm, 2" HDPE comes in giant rolls if you need a large quantity. Rent a trencher and that's your 25k runway done in short order, can't be any worse than running the same material across 110 acres. Don't see why you can't run a heated liquid through HDPE, you'd just need a decent pump. Only big obstacle I see is the storage of hot fluid, not sure you could insulate one of those 275 gallon IBC totes, you can often get those for free. A wood boiler outside would provide the heat source. Worst case, take some 55 gallon drums and weld those together with a copper coil in one to circulate the fluid from that IBC tote and the other is your fire box. If nothing else just work in stages, start close to the house and work your way back to the road, spread the pain out over time.

 

[Buckgnarly]

We put in irrigation at the farm, 2" HDPE comes in giant rolls if you need a large quantity. Rent a trencher and that's your 25k runway done in short order, can't be any worse than running the same material across 110 acres. Don't see why you can't run a heated liquid through HDPE, you'd just need a decent pump. Only big obstacle I see is the storage of hot fluid, not sure you could insulate one of those 275 gallon IBC totes, you can often get those for free. A wood boiler outside would provide the heat source. Worst case, take some 55 gallon drums and weld those together with a copper coil in one to circulate the fluid from that IBC tote and the other is your fire box. If nothing else just work in stages, start close to the house and work your way back to the road, spread the pain out over time.

You do realize the ground freezes, right? You gonna battle that all winter? It's hilarious when people suggest melting snow in snow areas as a way of dealing with it. A few square feet of sidewalk maybe, but large scale, no way.

 

[Dixie_Flatline]

You do realize I said use antifreeze as the fluid in my original reply, not water, right? If it is warmed up in a boiler then it will not freeze, thus no battle all winter. HIllarious!

 

[Buckgnarly]

You do realize I said use antifreeze as the fluid in my original reply, not water, right? If it is warmed up in a boiler then it will not freeze, thus no battle all winter. HIllarious!

No, you will be heating the entire ground. The planet itself is a pretty large heat sink.

 

[Sumboodie]

Because we generally remove the snow first?

At least where I live we never get that much ice on top of snowfall, that is so thick walking or driving in it won't break through.

AK might be late to the party (for now). In the past this region was cold, snow and ice most all winter. Now it's 20 degrees one day and 40 the next. I've used my snowblower 3 times in the last five years.

How are you scraping snow right down to the dirt all winter? Most secondary roads are snow/ice until breakup.

We broke records for snowfall last winter.

 

[Sumboodie]

If I still lived somewhere that had to deal with that stuff on a regular basis I would be engineering myself a heated driveway. Bury some tubing, plumb it to a tank of antifreeze, circulating pump, and a boiler of some sort. Et voilà, no more shoveling.

A few wealthy folk in Anchorage have them.
It's SUPER expensive to run. I've heard something like $1k+ a month in natural gas for a small driveway.

 

[Sumboodie]

Maybe ask your neighbors in AK what they do? That space seems huge compared to an average driveway most people have to deal with.

I live in one of the coldest locations in Mass. at 2,000 elevation and experience conditions exactly like you are describing every year. We have snow until April...get routine freeze then thaw cycles or rain...long 250' dirt driveway Driveway becomes a sheet of ice at times. And we don't use salt or brine for the very reasons you mentioned. The area in front of our house we had paved two years ago and that now stays snow and ice free after a plowing. The dirt driveway I just plow and pack down. When things ice up we just walk carefully, throw the tire chains on the tractor, and deal with it. It's the price we pay for living in a very cold part of the US.

You guys have bright sunlight. I grew up in Maine... same there.

We don't have much sun until spring. The sun is just above the horizon.

We have snow October to May most years.

 

[Sumboodie]

Sand salt mix and this thing. We have about 2' of snow on the ground, and are looking at 1.5" of rain this coming week....gonna be fun.

You have issues with the pile freezing solid?

At work the salt is under a roof but the sand it out in the open. they have to bust apart the pile.

I had a gravel pile i tried using last year, it may as well been solid rock.

 

[Buckgnarly]

You have issues with the pile freezing solid?

At work the salt is under a roof and the sand they have to bust apart the pile.

I do cover it with a tarp, but as long as you mix salt I've never had it freeze up. Sand itself will 100% freeze solid.

 

[finn]

If I still lived somewhere that had to deal with that stuff on a regular basis I would be engineering myself a heated driveway. Bury some tubing, plumb it to a tank of antifreeze, circulating pump, and a boiler of some sort. Et voilà, no more shoveling.

Do you realize how much propane that would consume.

People that live in mild climates with money to burn, but basic eight grade science can help you understand the energy it takes to bring a ton of ice through a phase change to turn it into a liquid, and even than, it’s still a puddle.

 

[zendriver]

How are you scraping snow right down to the dirt all winter? Most secondary roads are snow/ice until breakup.

We broke records for snowfall last winter.

We don't really have dirt roads. We use gravel that mostly drains from rain.

Snow is plowed down as low as possible, then people just drive on what's left. The only time they would be treacherous, if there was thick glare ice, which is somewhat rare.

Like I stated, it seems, our winters are much leas severe than in decades past, so sooner than later everything ends up melting and drying out, through the entire winter.

Never ever have seen anyone using any type of scarifacer, to move/remove ice or snow, as you have shown.

 

[Sumboodie]

We don't really have dirt roads. We use gravel that mostly drains from rain.

Snow is plowed down as low as possible, then people just drive on what's left. The only time they would be treacherous, if there was thick glare ice, which is somewhat rare.

Like I stated, it seems, our winters are much leas severe than in decades past, so sooner than later everything ends up melting and drying out, through the entire winter.

Never ever have seen anyone using any type of scarifacer, to move/remove ice or snow, as you have shown.

The what's left is the issue.

It builds up over winter and when we get a mid winter thaw (Chinook winds) then it's a sheet of ice. Same in early spring.

It's not much of a problem when it's normal winter temps.

Like today it's -10* at work, the ice us almost sticky.

 

[reader2580]

If I still lived somewhere that had to deal with that stuff on a regular basis I would be engineering myself a heated driveway. Bury some tubing, plumb it to a tank of antifreeze, circulating pump, and a boiler of some sort. Et voilà, no more shoveling.

As others have said, do you realize how much money it costs to run a boiler to do this? I've heard of a lot of those systems essentially being abandoned because of the heating cost, or the underground tubing springs a leak. Firewood is not free, either. There can be a lot of cost in labor and machinery to cut, split, and dry firewood. You are unlikely to be able to run a firewood boiler in a urban or suburban environment.

 

[Sumboodie]

As others have said, do you realize how much money it costs to run a boiler to do this? I've heard of a lot of those systems essentially being abandoned because of the heating cost, or the underground tubing springs a leak. Firewood is not free, either. There can be a lot of cost in labor and machinery to cut, split, and dry firewood. You are unlikely to be able to run a firewood boiler in a urban or suburban environment.

I mostly see heated areas in commercial buildings where the need to be ice free outweighs the operating cost.

Like an entrance to a hospital. Or a busy drive-thru. Or at the car wash.

 

[thammel]

LOL...I installed a heated driveway system about 25 years ago. Moved from that house to a flat driveway, thank goodness! It was electrically heated and the system was from deltatherm. I did the installation and trenching all myself. Then had a new asphalt driveway put on top of it. It worked very well. the plan was to use it only a few times a year when the ice was bad. The problem was that the driveway went down toward the house and aimed straight at the front of the house. I recall that that was about the most tired i had ever been to that point in my life, doing that installation!!

 

[WildBill]

https://tracklessvehicles.com/products/ice-breaker/

 

[djbmw]

It does, it's on a slope.

Sourcing and storing sand and salt... IF i can even buy it, it's not cheap and I'd need some sort of storage area. Would need at least a few yards.
It's definitely not free here.

Usually doesn't rain after snowing. Might be days or weeks later.

Like we got about 6" around Halloween and it rained yesterday.

Have you actually priced salt/sand mix from a quarry or aggregate supplier (the ones that supplies contractors and cities)?

Around here you pull your dump trailer in, and they will load you with however many tonnes you need. Going rate was $40 CAD/tonne last year.

Snow on top of ice is good.. leave the snow alone. You can drive on snow with decent winter tires... but a frozen 10% grade can be tricky if you dont want to spread sand/salt. You could try tire chains.

 

[Sumboodie]

Have you actually priced salt/sand mix from a quarry or aggregate supplier (the ones that supplies contractors and cities)?

Around here you pull your dump trailer in, and they will load you with however many tonnes you need. Going rate was $40 CAD/tonne last year.

Snow on top of ice is good.. leave the snow alone. You can drive on snow with decent winter tires... but a frozen 10% grade can be tricky if you dont want to spread sand/salt. You could try tire chains.

Not been able to source bulk salt.

 

[Sumboodie]

 

[djbmw]

Not been able to source bulk salt.

Its a mix/blend of sand and salt (90/10 ratio or there abouts)

 

[Sumboodie]

Its a mix/blend of sand and salt (90/10 ratio or there abouts)

Only have found a source for traction sand, no mix and no salt.

 

[DGersic]

I'm honestly surprised no one on here had had to deal with snow and then ice.

I’m in northern Illinois. I deal with snow and ice, primarily through prevention. Concrete driveway, so not having to mess with your dirt and gravel problems. Clear the snow off when it falls, so that it doesn’t get packed down by the vehicles. Also, if it’s not on the driveway, it can’t melt and form puddles that freeze in to ice when the temperature drops again.

Once you have a skating rink, it’s way too late for any simple and cheap solution.

 

[PCustoms]

Only have found a source for traction sand, no mix and no salt.

Bulk Salt — NorthStar Supply

www.nssalaska.com

 

[nortlake]

How do you all handle the dooryard being a sheet of ice? Usually several times a winter we get a warm spell, even rain. Got into the 40s, was below zero the week before! Plus in spring it'll melt and freeze at night.

Area is maybe 20-25,000 sq ft. Around 250ftx100ft. Maybe 60ft ling drive then it opens up to 80-100 ft wide and maybe 150 long.
On a slope, maybe 5-6% grade sidehill and 2% down to the street. (I'm on a 10% grade hill, about 5 acres)

Last year I tried a walk behind spreader I had. Pro grade unit made for the lawn.

It kind if worked but clogged plus the tires mostly skid. The traction "sand" was pretty expensive, I did a pass barely enough to have traction and it was $60 of sand. And it blew or slid away plus a ton tracked in the "house" (shop and apartment) take boots off before going in the apartment but still. Plus the dog doesn't help.
And it's sharp stone so it's like stepping on a Lego from hell.
Looked at buying a yard or two but not really coming up with a good way to store it that'll be out if the way, but easy to get to, And not freeze rock solid.

Looked into a fabbed "ice scratcher" for skid steer. WBM makes them. $$11k.

This maybe would work. But I have no free time... already YEARS behind on projects.

I feel your pain . I’m in SE Wisconsin and have a long / large gravel driveway with circle turn around , approach to the garage etc. I don’t uniformly plow down to bare gravel so there is usually some snow / compacted snow that sometimes turns to solid glaze ice and on some days the sun and/or temp create slippery mix on top of the glaze ice. It get dangerous and messy.

Instead of sanding and salting the entire driveway, I create narrow walking paths (between where the cars park and the front door) and tire track paths for the cars. I liberally apply salt, sand and sometimes some birdseye gravel only in these designate area by hand using a small bucket. It’s a little time consuming but effective and it lasts until the next snow.

 

[djbmw]

Only have found a source for traction sand, no mix and no salt.

I dont know how close any of these places are to you but...
https://www.anchsand.com/aggregate-sand-and-gravel/ (call them and ask about the sand/salt mix)

The city of Palmer is using salt/sand mix... maybe call to see who their supplier is...

 

[finn]

I’m in northern Illinois. I deal with snow and ice, primarily through prevention. Concrete driveway, so not having to mess with your dirt and gravel problems. Clear the snow off when it falls, so that it doesn’t get packed down by the vehicles. Also, if it’s not on the driveway, it can’t melt and form puddles that freeze in to ice when the temperature drops again.

Once you have a skating rink, it’s way too late for any simple and cheap solution.

I lived in Northern Illinois for forty years. It’s practical to scrape to a bare drive there, and desirable if you have a south facing asphalt drive, only for two reasons : first, they really don’t get much annual snowfall. I recall sixty inches was typical.

Second, there are quite a few sunny days, so the radiant energy helps to melt and keep it clear.

Totally impractical farther north, though.where you have to plow an average of three or four times to week, and the cloud cover is pretty dominant during much of the winter. The mat buildup is your friend there, unless you’re willing to invest in several tons of salt.

 

[SlotlessMan]

Probably apples and oranges as I am in rural WI, but here goes....

I keep a barrel of sand in my garage during the winter. About 50-60% of our land is pure sand so that cost is nil. The way our 175' recycled concrete driveway slopes, drains and faces, salt is absolutely useless. It just makes a bigger mess.

 

[Sumboodie]

I’m in northern Illinois. I deal with snow and ice, primarily through prevention. Concrete driveway, so not having to mess with your dirt and gravel problems. Clear the snow off when it falls, so that it doesn’t get packed down by the vehicles. Also, if it’s not on the driveway, it can’t melt and form puddles that freeze in to ice when the temperature drops again.

Once you have a skating rink, it’s way too late for any simple and cheap solution.

I'm gone weeks at a time, definitely don't have the option to plow snow as soon as it storms. Even still, not like it's possible to scrape right done to the ground, so that builds up thought the ~6 months we have snow.

Probably apples and oranges as I am in rural WI, but here goes....

I keep a barrel of sand in my garage during the winter. About 50-60% of our land is pure sand so that cost is nil. The way our 175' recycled concrete driveway slopes, drains and faces, salt is absolutely useless. It just makes a bigger mess.

How do you spread it? The barrel is enough for 1 or 2 sandings, then you chisel out the ground and refill?

 

[SlotlessMan]

How do you spread it? The barrel is enough for 1 or 2 sandings, then you chisel out the ground and refill?

I don't sand my entire driveway, just the bad spots for vehicles and people.

I have a decent slope but really don't need that much to get grip, just something to get momentum in a few locations. A full 55 gallon drum lasts me the season but I guess I'd get a second one if I had to.

I use a pail and a scoop to spread. Usually, after I clear a snowfall.

 

[BruceMc]

Never ever have seen anyone using any type of scarifacer, to move/remove ice or snow, as you have shown.

Pretty standard on the DOT graders around here when dealing with freezing rain or spring hard pack cleanup. I'm about 300 miles north of Sumboodie, and up until a few years ago it was very unusual to get freezing rain. Not so much these days.

 

[Sumboodie]

I've got a spare busted up too skinny bucket for my skid steer. I think I'm going to try a toothed cutting edge in it.

Just need a piece of 1/2" or 3/4" and cut teeth.

 

[AA/FC]

30 years ago we had a very early snowfall that set records that stand till this day. The heavy wet snow accumulated on road surfaces and it got packed down into rock hard ice. This ice was several inches thick and it would NOT go away for months. ALL of our streets in the entire metro area were F***ED for months. Worst roads I've ever been on! I have never seen anything like it since that storm 30 years ago. Our sate/counties/cities bought a bunch of these road grader blades with rotating carbide tips and they worked like magic. They peeled that ice off the road surface with ease when NOTHING else would even touch it. Right down to the pavement. In fact, they had to be careful or it could take the pavement with it.

Carbit-Blades

Carbit Blades

www.dioncosales.com

If you're looking for something that will melt the ice but not corrode metal and ruin tile floors and animal paws, try some E36 Liquid runway deicer. (NOT the same as airplane deicing fluid) It's what the large airports use on airfields. It won't cause corrosion on aluminum air frames and it wont hurt animals. I asked the guys at our local airport.... "If the stuff is so great, why don't they use in on our highways?" Answer: "It's VERY expensive". The major airport near our place has 4 runways and it's nothing for them to use $500K - $750K (for example) worth of E36 during an average snowstorm to keep the runways clear. They have the ability to store about 200,000 gallons (if I'm not mistaken) between two different truck filling stations right on airport property. They have tanker trucks hauling that stuff on a constant basis trying to keep their storage tanks topped up.

Cryotech E36 liquid runway deicer

Cryotech E36 liquid runway deicer is a high-performing 50% aqueous potassium acetate solution, by weight, with less than 1% corrosion inhibitors.

www.cryotech.com

 

[reader2580]

I mostly see heated areas in commercial buildings where the need to be ice free outweighs the operating cost.

Like an entrance to a hospital. Or a busy drive-thru. Or at the car wash.

My post was based on residential use. Commercial use is a whole different thing. I have read about a lot of residential systems being turned off due to the boiler going bad, a pipe leaking, or simply the high cost of fuel for the boiler.

A friend of mine has an indoor in ground pool. The pool hasn't been used in years due to the high cost of heating it, especially in the winter. The pool heater sprung a leak about a decade ago, and he simply bypassed the heater. The pool was installed when he had more money.

People do things because it sounds good up front, but they don't necessarily realize how much it will cost long term.

 

[Sumboodie]

45* today. Broke record highs.

Dooryard is a skating rink.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

How do you all handle the dooryard being a sheet of ice? Usually several times a winter we get a warm spell, even rain. Got into the 40s, was below zero the week before! Plus in spring it'll melt and freeze at night.

Area is maybe 20-25,000 sq ft. Around 250ftx100ft. Maybe 60ft ling drive then it opens up to 80-100 ft wide and maybe 150 long.
On a slope, maybe 5-6% grade sidehill and 2% down to the street. (I'm on a 10% grade hill, about 5 acres)

Last year I tried a walk behind spreader I had. Pro grade unit made for the lawn.

It kind if worked but clogged plus the tires mostly skid. The traction "sand" was pretty expensive, I did a pass barely enough to have traction and it was $60 of sand. And it blew or slid away plus a ton tracked in the "house" (shop and apartment) take boots off before going in the apartment but still. Plus the dog doesn't help.
And it's sharp stone so it's like stepping on a Lego from hell.
Looked at buying a yard or two but not really coming up with a good way to store it that'll be out if the way, but easy to get to, And not freeze rock solid.

Looked into a fabbed "ice scratcher" for skid steer. WBM makes them. $$11k.

This maybe would work. But I have no free time... already YEARS behind on projects.

Always wondered about this. It rarely happens in the south, but I can't even step out on the front porch of my condo without busting my ***.