Dropping ground?

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Ok. I have one circuit that runs two bedrooms and a set of lights for stairs and a set of hallway lights and I think the bathroom. Mostly just lights, led. I drop ground in one room.

In this room there is a switch, a fan and the offending outlet. The switch is grounded to both the box and both Romex cables. The outlet is grounded to the fan, the switch and the other cable going in, the box is an old work type box. The switch is a metal box and the fan is a metal box. I just went over all 3 boxes and all grounds are twisted together, tight and wire nutted. The fan alone has three grounds.

With the fan off, the outlet has ground. As soon as the switch is thrown for the fan, no ground. Fan/ fan light are switched, outlet is always hot. What am I missing here? I have triple checked all work. I don't know if ground was present before this so I have nothing to compare to. The other rooms have ground, even with the same fan hooked up the same way.

Help!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

which box does the feed wire terminate in? the suspect outlet?

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

which box does the feed wire terminate in? the suspect outlet?

It goes switch to outlet, outlet to fan I believe.

Two neutral connected in switch box. Two hot go to black screw. One red to silver screws. Ground to ground.

In outlet it's 3 neutral together with pig tail to outlet. Red from switch to fan hot with wire nut. Two hots with pigtail to outlet. Then all grounds connected. Fan just has hot, neutral, ground in its box with fan wires connected accordingly.

 

[TRWham]

How do you know you are losing the ground and it is only the outlet that is losing it?

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

How do you know you are losing the ground and it is only the outlet that is losing it?

Yes, the only one on that circuit that doesn't have ground ONLY when the fan is switched to on. The other half of the room is on another circuit. I use a circuit tester to see.

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

I can't think of any reason as to why it would lose ground as soon as the fan is turned on and when it's off, it's got ground. Unless the plug in type testers have some weird quirk with them?

 

[bubinga]

I can't think of any reason as to why it would lose ground as soon as the fan is turned on and when it's off, it's got ground. Unless the plug in type testers have some weird quirk with them?

test with a multi meter.

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Hot to neutral without fan/ switch on, 115v. Hot to ground 75v.

Hot to ground fan/switch on, 63v. Hot to neutral 115v still.

Ideas?

 

[TRWham]

Insulation is breaking down in motor and shorting to ground, or you have a short somewhere else putting voltage on ground.

 

[TRWham]

Where are you measuring?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

did you measure neutral to ground?

 

[MattT]

Hot to neutral without fan/ switch on, 115v. Hot to ground 75v.

Hot to ground fan/switch on, 63v. Hot to neutral 115v still.

You've got a problem on at least that circuit which looks like floating. The fan load is just making it worse to the point your plug in tester can detect it.

Personally I'd check at the breaker panel first to make sure it isn't a whole panel problem. And like Wylie said you need to be measuring neutral to ground which should be ~0v but is probably ~40v on your circuit.

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Neutral to ground reads 20v. In my haste to get the info down I forgot to record that. That is with fan off

 

[wyliesdiesels]

yeah youve got a continuity issue with the ground wire to the neutral bar in the main panel. should be 0v

Since youve checked all the splices in this room, i would start at the main panel as suggested above and work from there

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

The breaker I'm talking about is the one I'm pointing to. The yellow wire nut you see goes to whatever that old wiring is attached to on the side. And the service disconnect... not looking good.

 

[PCustoms]

Woah, time for a new panel.

 

[Bad Habit]

A good fire extinguisher would be in order too...

 

[TRWham]

I may not be able to sleep tonight after seeing those pictures.

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

I may not be able to sleep tonight after seeing those pictures.

You and me both.... it's been like this for years apparently. Not my house, but my girlfriend's.

 

[mm08822]

A Challenger Panel showing its value!

Looks like the fan problem led you to a more important brewing problem. Depending on the age of other hardware, you may want an entirely new service. At least a new panel with more branch circuit capacity.

What heavy loads are you running?

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

A Challenger Panel showing its value!

Looks like the fan problem led you to a more important brewing problem. Depending on the age of other hardware, you may want an entirely new service. At least a new panel with more branch circuit capacity.

What heavy loads are you running?

After seeing that, I agree. That was my first time in that panel. On that circuit the heaviest load is two ceiling fans. Ask the lights are led and then the only things plugged into outlets are newer TVs.

 

[mm08822]

After seeing that, I agree. That was my first time in that panel. On that circuit the heaviest load is two ceiling fans. Ask the lights are led and then the only things plugged into outlets are newer TVs.

I meant in the entire panel. Like the 40a cb for the oven. What else?

You probably want to stagger/minimize usage of any high draw loads until you get this box replaced.

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Right now just your basic appliances, a sump pump and a dehumidifier. Everything else is just TVs and phone chargers. Besides stove and dryer I can't think of any just huge loads

 

[Jim greengo]

Ok. I have one circuit that runs two bedrooms and a set of lights for stairs and a set of hallway lights and I think the bathroom. Mostly just lights, led. I drop ground in one room.

In this room there is a switch, a fan and the offending outlet. The switch is grounded to both the box and both Romex cables. The outlet is grounded to the fan, the switch and the other cable going in, the box is an old work type box. The switch is a metal box and the fan is a metal box. I just went over all 3 boxes and all grounds are twisted together, tight and wire nutted. The fan alone has three grounds.

With the fan off, the outlet has ground. As soon as the switch is thrown for the fan, no ground. Fan/ fan light are switched, outlet is always hot. What am I missing here? I have triple checked all work. I don't know if ground was present before this so I have nothing to compare to. The other rooms have ground, even with the same fan hooked up the same way.

Help!

Follow it. Back through the boxes and check to see if somebody bootlegged something between a ground and neutral maybe.

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Follow it. Back through the boxes and check to see if somebody bootlegged something between a ground and neutral maybe.

That was my plan. The wire goes up into the attic, wondering if there's a junction box somewhere. Will check all the other outlets on the circuit as well

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Does anybody know what that silver thing in the third photo is?

 

[TRWham]

Looks like a transformer for the doorbell.

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Update. I followed everything on the circuit minus the junction box in the attic. Hooked up two grounds to two switches that somebody had put in an old work box and never attached grounds for. The offending outlet went from 75v on the neutral to ground to 19.8v after hooking up grounds. Still voltage there though...

 

[PCustoms]

That panel is screwed. Stop chasing the ground issue and start making plans to replace panel.

And don't use the stove, as it is the highest load.

 

[Mr. T]

That panel is screwed. Stop chasing the ground issue and start making plans to replace panel.

And don't use the stove, as it is the highest load.

This X100.

In its current state the panel is a serious fire hazard. It needs to be replaced as soon as possible.

As is, sooner or later that is going to catch on fire... again.

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

I understand guys and I appreciate your concern and input. I'm trying to talk her into one. She's getting solar soon so the solar company is supposed to replace the panel since its clearly not safe. I'm trying to do what I can in the mean time. It's been like this for YEARS apparently. I'm guessing maybe in the last 3-4. Had I not installed this outlet I wouldn't have found the issue so for that I'm thankful. As soon as I took the door off the panel and inspected it I knew it wasn't kosher. I decided to share with you guys since I cringed just as bad. Again, thank you.

 

[PCustoms]

I understand guys and I appreciate your concern and input. I'm trying to talk her into one. She's getting solar soon so the solar company is supposed to replace the panel since its clearly not safe. I'm trying to do what I can in the mean time. It's been like this for YEARS apparently. I'm guessing maybe in the last 3-4. Had I not installed this outlet I wouldn't have found the issue so for that I'm thankful. As soon as I took the door off the panel and inspected it I knew it wasn't kosher. I decided to share with you guys since I cringed just as bad. Again, thank you.

Seriously, that panel has had an arc flash event/fire. This isn't a wait and get around to it situstion.

This X100.

In its current state the panel is a serious fire hazard. It needs to be replaced as soon as possible.

As is, sooner or later that is going to catch on fire... again.

What if it causes a full fire? Assuming you both get out OK, do you think the insurance is going to cover anything when they find out you knew of the issue?

A panel is $100, breakers probably total the same. Not sure what an electricin will charge or what other can of worms may be unleashed, but sleeping ant night knowing the place isn't going to burn down and possibly kill someone seems worth the money to me.

 

[sberry]

Also,,,,,,,,,,,,,, only 1 white wire under a screw. You can double grounds. One might not think so but this causes a lot of problems. Had a service call due to it a while back. Thighten the screws as a trouble shooting method, see if the funny voltage **** stops.

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I'm still alive. The panel is being replaced by the solar panel company, I guess it was good timing... thanks again for the help. Funny how something so small lead to something so big. I feel like that's every project I take on lol