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dumb electrical question

rattlecan

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Nov 19, 2007
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22
I recently cleaned out an old frige that had been sitting around for over a year. I plugged it in after cleaning and it ran fine all night, and into the next day.

But that afternoon the refrigerator started kicking the GFI... I unplugged it, reset the GFI... Plugged it back in and the gfi would trip.

This frige had been running at my old house for 5 years flawlessly.

Ideas?

Bad socket?

:headscrat
 
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Charles (in GA)

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Apparently either the GFCI has gone bad, or the fridge has a wire rubbed nearly thru and shorting to the frame. I would closely inspect the wiring on the entire unit, as much at least as you can see. Normally you don't plug a fridge into a GFCI just because they can trip one (transient fault) and cause whatever is in the fridge to go bad. The code says you can plug a fridge into a dedicated single receptacle (non GFCI) in a garage/basement/etc just for this reason.

Charles
 

Charles (in GA)

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There are no dumb questions.(don't know the answer)

Oh so true. With electrical, you might get a dumb answer (even from me) so beware and take all answers with a grain of salt. You can find the answer to any question you might ask, about anything, somewhere on the internet, its just finding it, and finding the most correct one, is the problem.

Charles
 
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rattlecan

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Nov 19, 2007
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Thank you Charles.

The house is about 9 months old, and I wouldn't think the GFI to be bad...

Unfortunately the only outlet in my garage is tied to the GFI. One reason I cleaned up/out the frige is to stock it for the upcoming garage remodel.... bummer.

I'll take a look to see if there is anything rubbed through...

Thanks again!
 

dipper

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take the fridge off of the GFI. They will trip the breakers when the compressor kicks on; especially if the gfi is bad or on the way out.
 

Aceman

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The code says you can plug a fridge into a dedicated single receptacle (non GFCI) in a garage/basement/etc just for this reason.

An exception to the 05 NEC allowed this, the 08 removed this exception. All 120v 15-20 amp receps must be GFI'ed now.

take the fridge off of the GFI. They will trip the breakers when the compressor kicks on; especially if the gfi is bad or on the way out.

Replace the bold word with "fridge" and that would be a more correct statement. Only way to know for sure is to replace the GFI, if it keeps tripping, junk the fridge.
 

pmiranda

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Normally you don't plug a fridge into a GFCI just because they can trip one (transient fault) and cause whatever is in the fridge to go bad.

Close.... normally you don't plug a fridge into a GFCI because a fridge is normally plugged into a dedicated circuit (where code used to allow no GFCI protection, but I guess that loophole closed), so that nothing but the fridge can trip the breaker and cause the contents to go bad.

A new GFCI outlet is relatively cheap and easy to put in, and if that still trips, you need a new fridge and you can use the old outlet somewhere else that you probably should upgrade to GFCI protection under the latest code :)
 

tdkkart

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An exception to the 05 NEC allowed this, the 08 removed this exception. All 120v 15-20 amp receps must be GFI'ed now.


Just to clarify the context, code says that all outlets in a garage/basement must be GFI'd.

Question, what exactly differentiates a finished basement or a shop where GFI is not neccesarily needed?? I've looked at a ton of houses lately, most of the finished basements did not have GFI outlets or breakers??
 

ddawg16

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Can you not plug the fridge into a non GFI outlet and see what happens

That is what I would do.....but I would not run anything in the garage off a non-GFI'd outlet.

Don't feel bad if the fridge is bad...chances are that it will use more in electrcity than what a new one would cost.

Regardless of what the NEC code requires.....I LIKE GFI's. Expecially with kids running around. With the newer electrical stuff, there is no reason it should trip the GFI. In the case of your fridge, I would be willing to bet that if it's not a shorted winding in the motor, then it's most likely a starting capacitor that is becoming leaky to ground.

So that you understand how a GFI works....
You don't actually have to have the ground wire hooked up to one....(though I do highly recommend it). The GFI is designed so that both the hot and common wire going out passes through a coil. If there is a leak to ground 'anywhere' down stream of the GFI, the current going in will not be equal to the current coming back through the common. This difference is what generates a field in the coil and causes it to trip. As long as the supply and return current is the same...all is well. There are some electronic circuits that can have issues with GFI's. If they have a capacitor from neut to ground, in some cases the leakage current can shunt enough current to trip the GFI. I think some of the older MIG welders had this issue. And why the capacitor? I 'think' it was to reduce induced noise on the AC line....but don't quote me on it.
 
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rattlecan

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Can you not plug the fridge into a non GFI outlet and see what happens

Going to give it a whirl tomorrow... I'm running an ext. cord through the house (kitchen is off of the garage) to check it out.

Not sure how or why the frige would be bad... It's a fairly expensive model that's only a few years old and ran like a champ before we moved. :headscrat

I'm replacing the GFI tomorrow... And sending the home builder a bill. :)
 

Kirby

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Marshall, VA
Clarification: My understanding is all 120V outlets, reachable from the floor require GFCI. Those on the ceiling, or 220V(I have five separate 220V circuits) do not. This was the explanation I got from my county inspector. Have I got this right? I am in the midst of wiring as we speak. Kirby
 

pmiranda

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I've looked at a ton of houses lately, most of the finished basements did not have GFI outlets or breakers??

They could have been built under the older code. It can take a while for the local inspection authority to adopt the latest code as required, and even then, depending on where and who you are, you can get exemptions. (It's not fair to the little guy that follows the rules, it's just the way things go sometimes.)
 

tdkkart

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They could have been built under the older code. It can take a while for the local inspection authority to adopt the latest code as required, and even then, depending on where and who you are, you can get exemptions. (It's not fair to the little guy that follows the rules, it's just the way things go sometimes.)


I guess what I'm wondering is what differentiates or defines the point where a building, or portion of a building, needs ground protection??

I'm in the process of buying a property with a 30x40 pole building built within the last 5 years. the inside of the building is partially finished with a heated room built inside, including infloor heating. Because it hs a seperate service entry/meter I'm almost certain that the building and wiring were inspected by the county when built. None of the wiring in the building is ground faulted. For that matter, I've never seen a pole building/shop with ground faulted circuits, yet it is required in garages??
 

Aceman

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I guess what I'm wondering is what differentiates or defines the point where a building, or portion of a building, needs ground protection?
Ultimately, that will be up to the inspector.
I've never seen a pole building/shop with ground faulted circuits, yet it is required in garages??
Yes.

GFI's are required for:

Bathrooms

Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use.

Outdoors

Crawl spaces

Unfinished basements or just the portions that aren't intended to be habitable rooms.

Kitchen countertop receps

Receps within 6' of a sink

Boathouses

Now you know exactly what the 08 code requires.:)
 

Nealcrenshaw

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I would plug the refrigerator into a nearby GFCI,if it trips it's probably a problem with the fridge, if not it's probably the GFCI.
 

BigChevy80

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The fridge in our last house had the same problem that you are having. It was plugged into one of the kitchen counter receptacles that was fed from a GFCI. You could reset it and go 2-3 days before it would trip again. I installed an outlet behind the fridge and ran a new 20 amp dedicated circuit to it. Never had another problem with it. When we sold the house the buyer's home inspection didn't mention anything about it... this was back in 2005 though.
 

larry4406

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Aceman pretty much sums up the same experience I had in building new homes from 2001 to 2007 in Northern VA. As a builder, the customer got the Code minimum unless they paid extra (this required a knowledgeable buyer or good salesman). So, we had lots of complaints from uneducated homeowners who put their fridge in the garage and plugged it into the GFI, it tripped, and they lost their contents. (Before you bash the "cheap builder" for going Code minimum, when you build 500 plus units per year, all of the small "extras" add up.)

Our electricians typically wired the house using what they referred to as the "Main GFI". In this setup, the Main GFI reset was typically in the garage (although sometimes in the basement mechanical room) with a home run to the panel. Then, the exterior outlets at the front and rear door, deck location, and even the post light where run off this GFI. Often, during heavy rains, the exterior outlets and sometimes the post light would trip the circuit and take out the fridge whereas the fridge had been running fine until then.

The best solution is to have a home run 20A outlet for the fridge. If you put this outlet in the garage or unfinished area (where GFI protection would normally be required) our inspectors required us to install a single outlet type trim (not a duplex outlet) on this dedicated outlet.

If your "main GFI" is in the garage and wire as described, you may be able to tap an outlet ahead of the GFI for the fridge, and keep the GFI for everything downstream.

As was posted also, some devices have issues being on GFI's. I chased this problem with a garage door opener tha would not work, yet the outlet checked fine.
 

MAINIAC

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new hampshire
IF THE FRIDGE RUNS OK ON THE NON GFI OUTLET YOU PROBLY HAVE YOUR ANSWER, BUT SOMETIMES AFTER SITTING UNPLUGGED / NON USE THE COMPRESSOR WILL LOOOSE IT'S "FREON" CHARGE AND WILL TRY CONTINUE TO TRY AND PULL IT DOWN TO AN OPERATING VACUUM. oNE THIS IS REACHED IT ACTUALLY RUNS EASIER BUT IF IT'S LOST IT'S CAHRGE FROM SITTING IT WILL OVER WORK AND TRIP THE BKR.
 

BrianAltenhofel

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Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use.

So, if your garage/accessory building is fully insulated and has a fridge, microwave, bed, and toilet... does that qualify as "intended as habitable"?

I prefer sleeping in the garage over the couch when I'm in trouble any day (the seat for the racecar is comfy... but a bed would be nice...)
 

kenfath

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Upland, CA
"Not sure how or why the frige would be bad... It's a fairly expensive model that's only a few years old and ran like a champ before we moved."

If the problem persists after testing it on a non-GFI circuit and after checking the wires as recommended earlier, I'd suggest checking your records and see if the refrigerator is still under warranty. If the appliance has problems you may have some protection from the manufacturer.
 
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