dumb question 101

[goneracin]

my building is finally up. GA power is going to run a new line to the building with its own meter (20/month)
my question is what is a good outdoor main breaker? my shop in co, i had the same setup, and had a main breaker outside so i could kill the building before it got through the wall. Made it feel much safer working in the box inside knowing nothing was in there...lol
im probably just going to have them put 90-100 amp service as its a small building (26 x 40) and it will only ever be just me working. I need 240 for my welder, and compressor and lift
i think ill use a smaller square d QO or homeline 100 amp panel inside

 

[whateg01]

my building is finally up. GA power is going to run a new line to the building with its own meter (20/month)
my question is what is a good outdoor main breaker? my shop in co, i had the same setup, and had a main breaker outside so i could kill the building before it got through the wall. Made it feel much safer working in the box inside knowing nothing was in there...lol
im probably just going to have them put 90-100 amp service as its a small building (26 x 40) and it will only ever be just me working. I need 240 for my welder, and compressor and lift
i think ill use a smaller square d QO or homeline 100 amp panel inside

For the money, I would not intentionally use a smaller panel if a bigger one will fit. You can always leave blanks. It's more work to add another panel later.

No input on the main breaker to use

 

[sparky 1971]

You can get an outdoor main breaker enclosure by about any manufacturer, including Square D, but for aesthetics, I would go for a meter main and have it all in one. For those, I use Milbank because that's what available and approved by all of the local POCO's around me. Those have Siemens main breaker and six or eight additional breaker slots with copper bus bar. You can't go wrong with Siemens or Square D for the inside panel, but spend an additional $10 and get at least a 24 space. Nobody has ever said "I wish I would have bought a panel with fewer spaces".

 

[loganb]

Just ask the power company what the upcharge is to put in a meter box with a main disconnect and pay them.

Also agree with above....make it the largest slot panel you can reasonably go...if you only want to supply it with 100 amps that's fine, but you then won't run out of spaces for circuits down the road. With 3 dedicated 240 volt circuits, that's 6 slots right there. Call it 2 for lighting, 1 for garage doors, 6 circuits for wall mounted receptacles...maybe another for an exterior mounted receptacles, you're at 16 slots. Not much spare room if you put in a 20 spot panel and the 40 slots aren't much more money

 

[goneracin]

good points. ill do at least 24 inside, as i agree no one ever has wished they had gone smaller...lol

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Another vote for a meter main…. Then a subpanel on the inside…

 

[micromind]

Another vote for a meter main…. Then a subpanel on the inside…

And another.

For a simple single phase service, a meter-main is by far the best way to go.

Just make sure that whatever model you pick is approved by the PUCO.

 

[goneracin]

after looking at this, i would agree with the meter/main approach with the sub panel inside.
Seems to be the easiest way to kill power inside the building.
my house in CO, the meter was out on the road and they ran cable underground about 75 yards to the shop, and there was an outside main where it entered.
The combination setup looks to be easiest.
I havent heard from GA power engineering as to how they are going to run to the building, so ill wait for him and see if they install it, or if i buy the enclosure and they plug their meter onto it or what.
thanks for the help
btw, while researching i found a good link to some diagrams that might be helpful
https://ep2000.com/understanding-neutral-ground-grounding-bonding/?v=e75edac1b83f

 

[fitter30]

Selling point 200 amp panel. Labor the same. That difference in wire and panel $1k?

 

[mm08822]

after looking at this, i would agree with the meter/main approach with the sub panel inside.
Seems to be the easiest way to kill power inside the building.
my house in CO, the meter was out on the road and they ran cable underground about 75 yards to the shop, and there was an outside main where it entered.
The combination setup looks to be easiest.
I havent heard from GA power engineering as to how they are going to run to the building, so ill wait for him and see if they install it, or if i buy the enclosure and they plug their meter onto it or what.
thanks for the help
btw, while researching i found a good link to some diagrams that might be helpful
https://ep2000.com/understanding-neutral-ground-grounding-bonding/?v=e75edac1b83f

Go on the POCO's website and find their requirements for electrical services. Typically, you will find a list of required mfr/part #'s for service equipment that must be in place before they will do the final connect.
It will at least define what the customer must purchase vs what they will provide.

 

[goneracin]

maybe im overthinking something, or just not thinking about it correctly
do i mount the meter panel to the metal building or to a post and run plastic conduit through the wall.
in the pic below, im just assuming the meterbase and service equipment box are the same box
?
I guess my question would be related to grounding. If the metal meter panel is attached to the building, the whole building becomes bonded to the meter panel, correct?
so then the sub panel if you mount it to a metal stud in the building along with the ground wire from the panel, youve created a ground loop? also, any metal j boxes when you bond them now are connected to both the building and to the isolated ground in the sub panel.

So my thought would be to not let the meter panel touch the building? or if it does, mount the sub panel to wood and use plastic j boxes?

 

[sparky 1971]

maybe im overthinking something, or just not thinking about it correctly
do i mount the meter panel to the metal building or to a post and run plastic conduit through the wall.
in the pic below, im just assuming the meterbase and service equipment box are the same box
?
I guess my question would be related to grounding. If the metal meter panel is attached to the building, the whole building becomes bonded to the meter panel, correct?
so then the sub panel if you mount it to a metal stud in the building along with the ground wire from the panel, youve created a ground loop? also, any metal j boxes when you bond them now are connected to both the building and to the isolated ground in the sub panel.

So my thought would be to not let the meter panel touch the building? or if it does, mount the sub panel to wood and use plastic j boxes?

The meter main can go on the building or on a pole, if you care anything about looks and lack of labor, put it on the building. You can use PVC or metal conduit from main to sub panel. The sub panel can be mounted to metal or wood studs in the wall, on the wall, whatever you would like. Just make sure that at the meter main the neutral and grounds are bonded, the ground rods are connected there, the UFER if you have one, and any other metallic piping system that leaves the shop (copper water or propane line?) is also bonded. The subpanel will have the neutral isolated from the ground. That's about all there is.

 

[NUTTSGT]

good points. ill do at least 24 inside, as i agree no one ever has wished they had gone smaller...lol

I'd suggest getting (if possible) a matching breaker box as to what is in the house, Square D or Eaton (C-H). . . .


I say this and hope never to have to but I can swap them out in an "emergency" situation.... If the wife is making Thanksgiving dinner and the 50A stove breaker fails (for whatever reason), I can rob one from my garage panel. Yeah, million in one but I still play the lottery too.

 

[whateg01]

I'd suggest getting (if possible) a matching breaker box as to what is in the house, Square D or Eaton (C-H). . . .

What if it's FPE?

 

[mm08822]

What if it's FPE?

Ask Norcal for the contact info on that pallet FPE products found at auction.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

maybe im overthinking something, or just not thinking about it correctly
do i mount the meter panel to the metal building or to a post and run plastic conduit through the wall.
in the pic below, im just assuming the meterbase and service equipment box are the same box
?
I guess my question would be related to grounding. If the metal meter panel is attached to the building, the whole building becomes bonded to the meter panel, correct?

correct and there is no issue with that.

so then the sub panel if you mount it to a metal stud in the building along with the ground wire from the panel, youve created a ground loop?

no such thing as a ground loop in electricity. why? because current doesnt flow on the ground under normal circumstances. you actually want (and are required) to have all metal objects bonded and at the same potential to prevent them from becoming energized and creating a potential for shock

also, any metal j boxes when you bond them now are connected to both the building and to the isolated ground in the sub panel.

the ground bar in the subpanel is NOT isolated and shouldnt be if it is. youre thinking of the neutral bar in the subpanel which SHOULD be isolated/insulated from the enclosure.

So my thought would be to not let the meter panel touch the building? or if it does, mount the sub panel to wood and use plastic j boxes?

the meter panel can touch the metal building. same for the subpanel. and nothing wrong with using metal j boxes. again, all metal should be at the same potential...

 

[walta]

my building is finally up. GA power is going to run a new line to the building with its own meter (20/month)

Ok $20 bucks a month does not sound bad. But the unasked question maybe will it be billed as residential or commercial it makes a huge difference in the rates charged.

Walta

 

[goneracin]

correct and there is no issue with that.

no such thing as a ground loop in electricity. why? because current doesnt flow on the ground under normal circumstances. you actually want (and are required) to have all metal objects bonded and at the same potential to prevent them from becoming energized and creating a potential for shock

the ground bar in the subpanel is NOT isolated and shouldnt be if it is. youre thinking of the neutral bar in the subpanel which SHOULD be isolated/insulated from the enclosure.

the meter panel can touch the metal building. same for the subpanel. and nothing wrong with using metal j boxes. again, all metal should be at the same potential...

Thank you for the reply
i worded that wrong. I meant its not directly hooked to the ground rod, but it is through the main panel.
I will say in a guitar amp, tube based, you most definitely can get a ground loop and induce hum, but i think in a non audio application its irrelevant. A good friend and former engine customer of mine designs electrical for skyscrapers and tall buildings in Denver. We just talked all this through on the phone..lol. I was def overthinking it while not getting something at the same time.

Thanks again for the explanation

 

[goneracin]

Ok $20 bucks a month does not sound bad. But the unasked question maybe will it be billed as residential or commercial it makes a huge difference in the rates charged.

Walta

that is something i need to clarify with them for sure.
the 2 main reasons for it are
1) simplicity due to proximity and running feed and
2)im wondering if the feed into the house would be overloaded if i tapped into it at the load side of the house

 

[walta]

that is something i need to clarify with them for sure.
the 2 main reasons for it are
1) simplicity due to proximity and running feed and
2)im wondering if the feed into the house would be overloaded if i tapped into it at the load side of the house

I only ask because some utilities seem to be out to screw people, if at all possible, with rules like only one residential service per address and some of the commercial billing plans are crazy. Hopefully yours is not like that but you need to understand if you are stepping into a bear trap.

Walta

 

[goneracin]

I only ask because some utilities seem to be out to screw people, if at all possible, with rules like only one residential service per address and some of the commercial billing plans are crazy. Hopefully yours is not like that but you need to understand if you are stepping into a bear trap.

Walta

thank you for the heads up

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thank you for the reply
i worded that wrong. I meant its not directly hooked to the ground rod, but it is through the main panel.

a ground rod and an equipment grounding conductor are not the same and serve difference purposes.

see post on electrical FAQ sticky

Electrical FAQs

Welcome All I have started this sticky as an FAQ thread for info on the basics that are encountered countless times every week on here. Hopefully this will help some. If u have a topic request, go ahead and post it. And if you have an FAQ you would like covered let me know.... Or if you...

www.garagejournal.com

I will say in a guitar amp, tube based, you most definitely can get a ground loop and induce hum, but i think in a non audio application its irrelevant.

yeah thats a totally different situation. you have current running over ground which is causing the hum and loop.... doesnt apply to an electrical system.

A good friend and former engine customer of mine designs electrical for skyscrapers and tall buildings in Denver. We just talked all this through on the phone..lol. I was def overthinking it while not getting something at the same time.

Thanks again for the explanation

youre welcome

 

[NUTTSGT]

What if it's FPE?

You're not going to find Federal Pacific new ...


If that's what you have, make future plans to swap it out...

 

[nadogail]

What if it's FPE?

Do not touch any FPE or Zinsco products, they were/are "Bad News"

 

[goneracin]

i know the homeline stuff gets mixed reviews here
GA power doe not supply any of the meter main deals and for my situation i want some outside circuits, along with a sub inside.
is this worth getting? or is there something else i should look into? Got my foam done, and need to start roughing the electrical
TIA
Bob
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...ground-Main-Breaker-CSED-RC816F200C/100178340

 

[Codyboy]

Before I bought that meter/ main I would check with the POCO on what they will allow.
Maybe you ready did. Idk.

The utility i retired from did not allow meter/main panels. Further they did not allow ringless meter cans except on 320A service.
200A and 100A cans were ring type.
The meter cans used had to be UL listed also.

I would not buy and install until you know for sure what they require.
Electricians or homeowners not familiar with the requirements here would get a big red turn down tag.
"Well, up in Conroe thats what we did"

Well Conroe is served by entergy a different utility.

Make corrections and call back.

 

[goneracin]

Before I bought that meter/ main I would check with the POCO on what they will allow.
Maybe you ready did. Idk.

The utility i retired from did not allow meter/main panels. Further they did not allow ringless meter cans except on 320A service.
200A and 100A cans were ring type.
The meter cans used had to be UL listed also.

I would not buy and install until you know for sure what they require.
Electricians or homeowners not familiar with the requirements here would get a big red turn down tag.
"Well, up in Conroe thats what we did"

Well Conroe is served by entergy a different utility.

Make corrections and call back.

the GA power "bluebook" specifically states ringless
I have spoken to an electrical contractor, and he assured me in my county the meter main is acceptable
ill try to reach out to the inspector to verify. Thanks