DVR Security Camera Systems?

[mpire]

I have experience with installing camera systems, so thats no big deal for me. However, its been 5-7 years since the last time around installing them in warehouses for my employers. So now I am shopping for a small system for my home and there are thousands of kits out there and I am trying to sort through all the mess to pick the right system.

I know I want good quality day and night picture, and I am thinking 4 cameras would probably do the job.

However, there are over 1500 options on Amazon alone.

Anyone have some input on what features to look for these days?

 

[OilyRascal]

My two cents:

1) Get Infrared (IR) Camera's - the more IR LED illuminators present the better night vision

2) Look at wireless camera /system if wiring will be at issue

3) While DVRs have their place - a computer based controller board (e.g. AverMedia's Video Capture Card) may be a better option - depends on your existing computer(s), what level of customization you desire, and future expansion. I keep 30 days of audio/video for 8 camera's on my PC, with less than 1TB disk space.

4) I find CCTV Wholesalers in New Orleans a great place to buy such products. http://www.cctvwholesalers.com/Default.asp
There was a time when I was in-store customer and they are great folks to work with. I've returned a 4 year old Sony camera because it died, and they replaced it free of charge.

5) Look at systems that are capable of streaming the audio/video to HTTP, and that the stream can be visible via the Internet (not just your local LAN) if that's your choosing.

Good luck with your project!

 

[Falcon67]

We have some 4 camera Samsung setup here at work. The cameras are decent and do well in low ( or no) light. The system software is about a 6 on a 10 scale - usable. There is a similar system at our local Sams for around $500. After looking at all the camera BS, I've pretty much decided to just buy some IR capable wireless web cams and be done with it.

 

[steven083008]

Keep in mind that most "wireless" camera still need a power source, so you typically still have to run one wire for power. This isn't always the case, but typically is... especially w/ lower end setups.

 

[OilyRascal]

If they're going to be "outdoor" cameras make sure you find OUTDOOR camera versus having to buy an expensive aftermarket enclosure.

You may want to look at Dlink's DCS-5300G wireless network camera. I have several of these indoors. It has a built in http, ftp, and smtp server. You can set alarms based on percentage pixel change. For example, we used one above the baby's crib and adjusted so that a roll in the night wouldn't alarm, but the mass of my body near the crib WOULD. They are the most affordable way I could achieve Pan/Tilt/Zoom capabilities - traditional CCTV Pan/Tilt/Zoom is closer to 1k per camera versus Dlinks' $350.

 

[Jagmandave]

The hardest part for me is getting power to the camera, if you want to hide it or put it in a place where it can't be vandalized or destroyed by those you're trying to watch out for.

I agree that if you can afford it, you want a setup that you can access remotely, I did that on my last system at work, and it was extremely useful both as a monitor and to be able to check for problems without driving the 40 miles to the shop in bad weather at 2am when the alarm went off.

My system used a Geovision card in an inexpensive PC that could connect to the net and two 500 gig hardrives - that would get me about 30 days of recording and would automatically overwrite the oldest entries. The cameras the Geovision guy sold me were motion sensitive cameras that were night and outdoor compatible - I even mounted one in a freezer at -10* without an enclosure, that way you don't fill your hard drives up with hours of nothing, and with their software, you could mask areas that the cameras watched so that it didn't triggger from a car driving by or the wind blowing something around. It was pretty neat stuff.

 

[jeffmoss26]

I'm a fan of EverFocus DVRs and Cameras. I always run my own cable, whether I use Cat 5e and baluns or RG59 and 18/2 siamese.

Jeff

 

[mpire]

So much has changed since I was putting these in.

I am looking at the various Samsung systems, and those allow me to use regular Cat 5e to run the cameras. That's a bonus because I have all the cat5 cable you could ever want and I have all the tools etc.

Motion detection is a must, because I don't want to have to watch these things forever to find the clip where the guy is stealing stuff out of my yard.

 

[Teken]

1. What is your budget?

2. What do you want to see and how far?

3. What type of environment will these cameras be working under?

4. Have you performed a security threat assessment?

5. What level of detail / quality do you expect to see & record?

All of these basic questions need to be asked, then answered. Only then will you be able to make a reasonable decision upon what type of gear should be deployed for your home.

Teken . . .

 

[mpire]

1. What is your budget?

About a grand or less.

2. What do you want to see and how far?

Just my yard. That's about it.

3. What type of environment will these cameras be working under?

I plan to put them under the eaves on the roof pointing down at the yard/driveway.

4. Have you performed a security threat assessment?

I have a full security system with sensors on every door and window, as well as motion sensors. I am having issues with things disappearing from my yard. Not because they are stealing them for money, but because they are stealing it because they don't want me to put it in my yard.

5. What level of detail / quality do you expect to see & record?

I need to know which neighbor is stealing from me, and it would be nice to know whose huge *** dog is dropping piles in my yard too. I hate hitting them with the mower. It really stinks.

I live in a gated community, so I have a false sense of security anyway, but I work from home so I really am not worried about the inside as much as the outside.

 

[Teken]

I would suggest that you consider purchasing a PTZ camera system then. This will allow you to Pan - Tilt - Zoom to view the immediate and local area of interest. Having a fixed camera at a strategic location is also paramount.

Remember FOV (Field Of View) is important to understand and know the limits of what you expect to see, and capture.

Get on a ladder and stand in the exact place you expect a camera to be mounted. This will allow you, and reinforce what you will see given the angle of attack.

If you require facial, or license plate recognition then expect to spend more money. Keep in mind using and deploying a PTZ camera will allow you to see better, further, and with extended range *near & far*

Also, keep in mind security motion lighting is also key in using any camera system. Lighting is the only proven and tried method that will alert you and the intruder of a barrier breach.

Consider installing motion lighting in the areas of interest and the protected zone(s). Installing camera's is great for evidence gathering and replay. It does not negate a potential threat from happening.

If you don't have a perimeter fence have one installed. This simple barrier is considered the demark line and considered the breached property line. A thousand dollars will get you a pretty decent PTZ camera, shop around and play with them first before making an investment.

There are a lot of companies in your area that will allow you to demo these units in a live setting. Knowing what you're getting and the limits is the key in all that you buy and install.

Teken . . .

 

[SixStringMadness]

About a grand or less.



Just my yard. That's about it.





I plan to put them under the eaves on the roof pointing down at the yard/driveway.



I have a full security system with sensors on every door and window, as well as motion sensors. I am having issues with things disappearing from my yard. Not because they are stealing them for money, but because they are stealing it because they don't want me to put it in my yard.



I need to know which neighbor is stealing from me, and it would be nice to know whose huge *** dog is dropping piles in my yard too. I hate hitting them with the mower. It really stinks.

I live in a gated community, so I have a false sense of security anyway, but I work from home so I really am not worried about the inside as much as the outside.

I just touted my credentials in another thread with nearly the same title not more than an hour ago. So for now, let's just say I'm a subject matter expert.

It sounds to me, you need a temporary fix. Catch the nosy neighbor, or ill mannered neighbor dog walking, and you're probably never going to use it again.

I'll just tell you this now. For $1000 all you're going to buy is total junk, but I design million dollar NVMS IP systems in excess of 1000 cameras, where one camera is $1000.00, so who am I to say.....

It's my opinion if you want to catch your a-hole neighbors, you need a covert camera(s). Something they will not see you install, or catch as they're looking your house over. When I have this need around my home (which I have twice now), I sent up a single IP camera inside a window, and when necessary I use a IR illuminator for low light conditions. I generally set up the same conditions that required me to break out the camera in the first place where the camera is watching (set a trap).

 

[SixStringMadness]

I would suggest that you consider purchasing a PTZ camera system then.

Teken . . .

Interesting approach for a home....

FYI to the OP, PTZ's generally require being manned to operate them. They do have guard tours, but ignore any subjects in the FOV passing by unless you're there to take manual control. The best manufacturer I use claim they can track subjects, but for a $5000 camera, its still pretty poor performance.

Unless you purchase a DVTel IOImage system PTZ and fixed setup with subject tracking, manual operation is necessary for optimal performance of PTZ's, which you will not find for under $1000

 

[mpire]

Well, my pickup truck was gone through a couple years ago, so the camera system has been on the to do list for a while. So long in fact that I already have approval for the camera install on the eaves of the house.

I am thinking that the cameras would be good to catch the thieving neighbors, but if they know they are there, they would also be a good deterrent.

I have motion lighting already, and I have the usual home security system that everyone else does.

I don't need anything too dramatic. Real thieves aren't going to be stealing the lumber from my flower beds, but it would be nice to get a good shot of them if they really did break into my home.

I think thousands of dollars for a system isn't really my speed.

I have seen lots of the small 4-8 camera systems for 500-1000 bucks all over the place.

As long as I can drop it on a DVD and hand the video to the cops or HOA nazis then I will be satisfied.

I anticipate I will recognize who is stealing the stuff and walking their dogs though the yard.

I live on the corner, there are lots of neighbors with dogs. The HOA will happily fine the **** out of them for NOT picking up the dog **** because they want the money. The flower beds disappearing really piss me off more than you can imagine.

This is the replacement for the first one that dissappeared.

Yesterday they took the boards I had set up to protect the sprinkler heads from people parking on top of the sprinkler heads. I have tried everything, nothing is going to stop the 5000 lb suv from destroying the sprinkler head. I just figured that they boards would make some noise when they ran over them.

 

[Teken]

Video Analytics isn't something a lot of folks will know about or can afford to deploy for sure.

This I can relate too, but having the access to Axis, Bosch, Pelco, Mobotix camera's and using them at home kind of gives me a odd perspective.

 

[SixStringMadness]

Video Analytics isn't something a lot of folks will know about or can afford to deploy for sure.

This I can relate too, but having the access to Axis, Bosch, Pelco, Mobotix camera's and using them at home kind of gives me a odd perspective.

I won't deny that I have installed a Bosch and an Arecont camera for a specific purpose at my home, but I didn't pay for the camera or recording. If I had to pay for it, I would have to question myself quite strongly...

 

[Teken]

Arecont <-- They have been getting beat up quite strongly in the IPVM forums!

Teken . . .

 

[SixStringMadness]

We have some folks that are rather fond of them, rather devoted I might say, and even one RFP that I responded to last year that specified them. I think they're pretty much fancy paper weights.

Their low light performance is terrible, their reliability is suspect at best, and the QC is maybe the worst in the industry. (among the professional line of manufacturers)

 

[Falcon67]

Keep in mind that most "wireless" camera still need a power source, so you typically still have to run one wire for power. This isn't always the case, but typically is... especially w/ lower end setups.

Easier to provide power where I want to use them than run CAT5.

 

[Jagmandave]

Isn't the software the more important part of the puzzle for the use the OP envisions?

Going back to the Geovision (no, I'm not recommending them, it's the only system I'm familiar with) it had the ability to zoom in on a spot in the recorded image, and it had sharpening protocols and such - so you could pinpoint that face or lic plate and zoom in enough to get a good image - much better than the grainy stuff you see on TV when they want to catch a bank robber.

It also had the ability to mask off areas of the image, such as a tree or bush so that if the wind moved it you wouldn't get hours of recordings of wind blown trees.

Oh, and all of the recorded images were B&W, even in daylight, don't they now record the daylight images in color?

PTZ is of no value unless you're there watching it to manipulate the camera. However, if you're remote monitoring something like I was the engine room at the plant, it was excellent - I could pan around to see the different gauges and control panels and I cuold tell from the indicators if everything was working correctly. Saved me a lot of midnight trips to the plant 40 miles away.

Geovision was not a high end expensive card/software package, but it was more expensive than the Costco or Harbor Freight package deals. By the time I was done with the install I had 16 cameras (4 outside, 12 inside including one in the freezer where we had an employee working) and mics on 4 of them all together.

One of the really neat features was the real time PTZ monitoring, I could go online and watch a machine work, and talk to the operator and have them try different things while I watched from home - very cool!

 

[Teken]

The biggest thing I can ever stress to the OP or anyone is *Try Before You Buy*. Having said this TVL (TV Lines) is paramount only next to quality optics.

Don't settle for anything less than 650 TVL for an analog camera. Don't get caught up with the so called mega pixel cameras. The security field is the only industry for what ever screwed up reason to be 10 years behind the rest of the tech industry in terms of deploying 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation technologies.

With respect to PTZ, people need to understand and realize that having something is paramount. The analogy of

*Better to have and not need. Than, to need and not have*

You can not move, focus, and zoom on to an object at will with a stationary camera. If you cheap out on good optics for the same thing, you might as well have done nothing a all.

Just because you can see something doesn't mean the data is useful. It is the ability to use this data in a useful and meaningful way that is key. This is the priority and the end goal in true video security.

Teken . . .

 

[SixStringMadness]

Isn't the software the more important part of the puzzle for the use the OP envisions?

software is meaningless unless you're on using an IP platform. Megapixel it is crucial.

ExacqVision provides their software for free I believe, and you just pay for the license to add IP cameras.

As an alternative to PTZ, utilizing megapixel is key to obtaining the necessary data to achieve the optimum evidence. 30 pixels per foot is the minimum resolution range where you may look into the image and recognize a person by face (it helps to know the person), and I can share a chart if the OP would like that designates the different ranges per imager/lens combination.

Some companies are starting to release megapixel PTZ, but you're certainly not going to install those in your home unless you're a high profile actor or business senior executive.

 

[articsilber323]

can anyone recommend a 4 camera outdoor system with its own dvr unit that has motion detecting recording under 500 dollars ?

 

[mpire]

From what I have seen, they all have motion sensing.

Basically they record everything, but only save the stuff with movement. Its done in the software.

 

[articsilber323]

i found these two

are these any good does anyone have experience with them would like to have good video quality at night also

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0050NZ57A/?tag=atomicindus08-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004U79JK6/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Teken]

i found these two

are these any good does anyone have experience with them would like to have good video quality at night also

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0050NZ57A/?tag=atomicindus08-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004U79JK6/?tag=atomicindus08-20

At $379.** your expectations should be pretty low . . .

Teken . . .

 

[DustynF]

I come from the industry as well and you are not going to get a quality system with Costco components. A lot of these manufactures will tout 30FPS but that is only on one channel. If you are going to have more than one camera then that will not do. My opinion on PTZs is that they are useless unless you have someone behind the stick or you have an alarm system integrated into the DVR that will trip a point say that will go to the lawn sprinkler. Setting a tour with PTZ sounds all cool but unless you have contact integrated in, you could miss the action event. If you can spare the cash a megapixel camera is the way to go.

When you decide on the DVR make sure it will do IP because analog will be cheaper but more of a pain( termination and power issues). If you buy analog cameras and have an ip interface you will need to purchase an Encoder. If you buy POE cameras then you can power them within Ethernet specs.



I would look into a decent embedded dvr with DDNS service and have apps support. Just my two cents.

 

[steven083008]

At $379.** your expectations should be pretty low . . .

Teken . . .

I agree with you on that. The expectations are not exceptional, however the goal isn't either.

Our reasoning for video field is to monitor actions of roommates in shared living spaces (prevent them from stealing things or going through things they shouldn't be) and to track and possibly identify anyone who breaks in or is on our property when they shouldn't be.

Although these cameras do not give excellent picture quality in the H.264 recordings, they are clear enough to ID someone at 20 ft. and to clearly tell what someone is wearing and doing at 30-60 ft. This covers all of the necessary needs that we have. Our security system is for making people think twice about breaking in, the cameras just supplement that.

With our break-in last week we were able to tell where the person came into the house, what things they touched, and what they did. This led us to know exactly where to fingerprint and we got a great palm print from it. If the guy has been arrested, or gets arrested, they have him dead to rights on our break-in.

 

[mpire]

Well, I bought an 8 camera Samsung unit to give it a try.

Its all Cat5e, so it should be fairly easy to wire.

We will see how it goes.

I am trying to figure out where to hide the system so the thieves won't find it if they break into my home.

I installed a camera system in a warehouse out in Vegas because we had so much stuff disappearing. They promptly stole the camera system.

 

[Teken]

I agree with you on that. The expectations are not exceptional, however the goal isn't either.

Our reasoning for video field is to monitor actions of roommates in shared living spaces (prevent them from stealing things or going through things they shouldn't be) and to track and possibly identify anyone who breaks in or is on our property when they shouldn't be.

Although these cameras do not give excellent picture quality in the H.264 recordings, they are clear enough to ID someone at 20 ft. and to clearly tell what someone is wearing and doing at 30-60 ft. This covers all of the necessary needs that we have. Our security system is for making people think twice about breaking in, the cameras just supplement that.

With our break-in last week we were able to tell where the person came into the house, what things they touched, and what they did. This led us to know exactly where to fingerprint and we got a great palm print from it. If the guy has been arrested, or gets arrested, they have him dead to rights on our break-in.

Nothing wrong with that logic. Having said that, consider if this is a long term investment?

If it is then I would encourage you to wait, save, then shop around for something that may provide you with future expansion, performance, and quality of data capture.

Teken . . .

 

[mpire]

I think I need to get a dummy DVR as well just in case.

 

[SixStringMadness]

Well, I bought an 8 camera Samsung unit to give it a try.

Its all Cat5e, so it should be fairly easy to wire.

We will see how it goes.

I am trying to figure out where to hide the system so the thieves won't find it if they break into my home.

I installed a camera system in a warehouse out in Vegas because we had so much stuff disappearing. They promptly stole the camera system.

You'll have to be creative, as the thieves who know their "craft" are quite adept at finding security components and disabling/removing.

In my early days, and when I was still in the field, I saw this first hand several times. The thieves know what they're doing, and can blow through a house (I saw only businesses hit in my experiences, I never worked in homes) in a matter of 3 minutes and clean you out of most of your valuables.

I think I need to get a dummy DVR as well just in case.

this is a great start to the creativity aspect of your security approach.

 

[pfbz]

I have a lower cost system with multiple cameras. And while the record quality is not great, I find that 90% of the benefit comes from the visible cameras and larger video surveillance signs posted in visible spots.

At my home, I have a few cameras in back covering all approaches. Inside the gates but visible from outside, with a big sign on the gate.

In the front, one camera covering the front approach, and a second under the eave pointing right at anybody ringing the doorbell. The last one seems to have the effect of incredibly polite behavior from any strangers at the door.

Will it deter a serious thief's who's targeting my specific property? Maybe not.

Will it move a street punk or opportunity thief down the road somewhere else? Absolutely.

 

[steven083008]

I have a question about hiding the DVR. As I mentioned above, I have one of the cheaper DVR/camera setups and want to hide it better than it is now, as it is currently "disguised" but not hidden. How much do I need to worry about ventilation? Would I be able to put this in a closed box (say 12" x 12" x 20") if it isn't sealed up tight? Without it being inside of something, I really don't know a good way to hide it and still be able to check in on it from time to time.

 

[pfbz]

It would seem that with readily available 'cloud' storage, and many of these systems being PC based, it would be relatively easy to constantly be dumping video files to a virtual cloud disk. No way they will get their hands on that data!

 

[mpire]

It would seem that with readily available 'cloud' storage, and many of these systems being PC based, it would be relatively easy to constantly be dumping video files to a virtual cloud disk. No way they will get their hands on that data!

The problem with that argument is that they can just cut the power or cable and its no longer getting saved anywhere.

I am thinking I will have to hide the DVR somewhere out of sight, but the attic would probably be too hot and humid, so I need to hide it inside a wall or something. I will also be putting an old computer and screw that to the wall of my closet and add to that some cable wires going into the system with a label that says video surveillance system or something very obvious on it.

I find it to be rather humorous about theft though, I really don't have anything worth stealing other than air conditioning units and a few TVs. Most of my other stuff came from harbor freight and walmart.

Gotta have a decoy.

 

[Jagmandave]

I have a lower cost system with multiple cameras. And while the record quality is not great, I find that 90% of the benefit comes from the visible cameras and larger video surveillance signs posted in visible spots.

The last one seems to have the effect of incredibly polite behavior from any strangers at the door.

Will it deter a serious thief's who's targeting my specific property? Maybe not.

Will it move a street punk or opportunity thief down the road somewhere else? Absolutely.

Spot on!

Although.....

When we first opened our plant I had 4 outdoor cameras only, and we had a lot of temp employees coming and going every day. One day a pressure washer came up missing. I went to the tape and saw the thief drive around the back of the building, load it up from the place he'd hidden it behind a fence and got a good view of the back of his truck, lic plate clearly visible, washer handle sticking up in the back and all. The next day he came back to work as if nothing had happened! We had called the police and they were there waiting for him when he drove in, he parked his truck nonchalantly and went inside to go to work - completely oblivious! I had given the officer the tape and I brought the perp up to meet him. He walked the ******* out the front door, big ol' VHS tape in his hand, pointed at the camera and asked the guy if he knew what those were? The guy said "security cameras".....the cop held up the tape and just looked at the guy - he still didn't make the connection! Finally he explained that they had the whole thing on tape and the lightbulb went from off to very, very dim above his head!

We got our pressure washer back, he had hocked it for $50 and spent the money on beer or drugs, and I have no idea where he got the money to get it back from the pawn shop but he did. We couldn't send him to jail because the value was too low, but he got blacklisted from all of the temp agencies in town.

Point being, there are some really ******* thieves out there, sometimes even a sign doesn't help!

 

[StRacerDuke]

This may be helpful:

I recently installed a 4 camera system for our home from an online kit (CCTV Security Pros). I did a lot of research and the customer support from these guys really seamed to be top notch. As it turns out, I've used them a few times for help and have been very happy.

My system is using their 'Pro' DVR. I picked a kit up for just over $1K about a year ago. If I had to do it all over again I would get an upgraded DVR (Extreme series). What I didn't know was the DVR I have only records one channel in CIF. You want all 4 in at least CIF or 4CIF. With my system the camera's are better than the DVR, unfortunately.

The motion detection and networking works very well. I have the app on my phone and through port forwarding and DNS set up I can see whatever I want from anywhere.

If I was going to spend the $ again I would probably get something like this:
http://www.cctvsecuritypros.com/esecohideh4c1.html

 

[DustynF]

The problem with that argument is that they can just cut the power or cable and its no longer getting saved anywhere.

I am thinking I will have to hide the DVR somewhere out of sight, but the attic would probably be too hot and humid, so I need to hide it inside a wall or something. I will also be putting an old computer and screw that to the wall of my closet and add to that some cable wires going into the system with a label that says video surveillance system or something very obvious on it.

I find it to be rather humorous about theft though, I really don't have anything worth stealing other than air conditioning units and a few TVs. Most of my other stuff came from harbor freight and walmart.

Gotta have a decoy.

A good beeline cabinet would prevent them getting to the dvr or if your dvr allowed to be mapped to drive and then have the external drive capture the footage setting in a gun safe. This is assuming you have implemented a other levels of security. A decent intrusion panel with strobes, sirens and a cellular dialer should take care of it. If they did cut the power the intrusion system should have a backup in the enclosure.

I know this is getting carried away.... but I like the discussion.

 

[Tsunami]

Take a look at a company called STEM. They have a wireless camera called iZON. I have 3 of these installed in my home and love them. I can look in to my house from any of the cameras at any time via my iPhone or iPad. They can be activated via motion an/or sound and the video can be up loaded to a free YouTube account. They may not be super high-tech, but I'm impressed with them for what they are. I also have an installed security system and augment it with these cameras